Monks belt + Superior Unarmed Strike

[StickMan]

If you have a monk who has the Superior Unarmed Strike and a Monks belt do the effects stack causing you to deal damage as if you were 9 levels higher?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Yes. Two different sources granting an unnamed bonus.

[Xan]

What book is the Superiour Unarmed Strike in?

[Neon Knight]

Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.

[Arbitrarity]

Wasn't there a different ruling based on that both effects state "As a monk X levels higher"?

[Jasdoif]

Wasn't there a different ruling based on that both effects state "As a monk X levels higher"?

That's my interpretation of it, yes. Both effects say something along the lines of "as a monk of X levels higher" (I can't check ToB here for the exact wording of Superior Unarmed Strike). The way they're worded, they're both based on your monk level without providing an actual bonus to your effective monk level, so they do not stack.

If, say, monk's belt said "Your effective monk level is 5 levels higher for the purpose of unarmed damage and unarmored AC", it would be different.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Here are the relevant descriptions:

If you are a monk, you instead deal unarmed damage as a monk four levels higher

The wearer’s ... unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher.

[Ramza00]

They stack for they aren't a bonus, instead it is an additional. Bonuses don't stack, additionals do (such as sneak attack or arcane strike)

[Person_Man]

FYI, there's a PrC in the Complete Champion called the Fist of the Forest that grants 2 steps (not levels, steps, so 1d6 unarmed damage becomes 1d10) up the Monk unarmed damage chart in only 3 levels, along with other nifty benefits. And its written in such a way that it stack with virtually anything (so if your unarmed damage is already 2d6, it then becomes 2d10).

So with a Monks Belt, Superior Unarmed Strike, and 3 levels of this FotF, your unarmed damage of a medium creature is 2d8. With Improved Natural Attack feat, it becomes 3d8. If you can find ways to make it continue stacking upwards then it continues to scale upwards to 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, and 12d8. Like the King of Smack, except with Unarmed Strikes instead of Claws.

Maybe a Shifter Swordsage 4/Fist of the Forest 3/Warshaper 1/whatever X? Two feats and one magic item for 6d8 unarmed damage at ECL 8 isn't bad. It'd be great with my auto-grapple kill build, if you could somehow find the feats for Knifefighter and Scorpion's Grap. Sadly, Knifefighter is Forgotten Realms specific.

[Ramza00]

1 lvl of Totemist for the totem avatar bind where you your natural attacks are treated as they are 1 size larger.

One of my favorite spells, greater mighty wallop will also do a damage boost.

[Fax Celestis]

1 lvl of Totemist for the totem avatar bind where you your natural attacks are treated as they are 1 size larger.

One of my favorite spells, greater mighty wallop will also do a damage boost.

You need two levels if you're binding. Totemists don't gain the ability to bind until level 2, though they can shape prior.

[X15lm204]

Alright, related question. I have a Fighter 8 with the Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Improved Natural Attack feats (for a base unarmed damage of 2d6) who might get a Monk's Belt at her next major windfall. Assuming that she obtains it before gaining another level, would she be treated as a Monk 9 for a (now static) base damage of 2d8? would the Belt move her five levels up the SUS table (still 2d8 but able to increase at 11)? something else entirely?

[Arbitrarity]

I'm not sure that would have an effect. The monk's belt says you gain damage and AC boost of a 5'th level monk. SUS says you treat your unarmed strike as a monk of four levels higher, IF you have monk levels.

[Curmudgeon]

As Arbitrarity and Jasdoif have pointed out, both the item and feat reference your actual Monk level so they don't stack together. But there's a way to get lots of unarmed damage with a couple of items, a whopping skill check, and no feats or actual Monk levels.

You need a Monk's Belt and also a Fanged Ring, which (among other things) grants the feats

• Improved Unarmed Strike
• Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike)

This is a decent combination already, as you'd do 2d6 unarmed damage (if medium size) -- no feats or Monk levels required.

The kicker is adding a DC40 Use Magic Device check to Emulate a Specific Individual when activating an item. This skill use rule was introduced in a Dragon magazine adventure. If you can make the check and know a medium Monk of level 15+, the improved activation of these two items will give you 4d8 unarmed damage: that of a large Monk of level 20+.

[Arbitrarity]

So questionable interpretations are out, but Dragon Magazine is in? That combination doesn't even make any sense! You can't "Activate" that ring, it's a continuous effect!

Hur hur hur, I activate the monk's belt like I was a 15'th level monk, giving me 2d10 unarmed damage and wis+4 AC!

No.

[Ramza00]

You need two levels if you're binding. Totemists don't gain the ability to bind until level 2, though they can shape prior.

Yeah you are right, didn't have my books on me and am doing it from memory.

[Curmudgeon]

So questionable interpretations are out, but Dragon Magazine is in?

That's WotC's position. Dragon is "100% Official D&D".

Hur hur hur, I activate the monk's belt like I was a 15'th level monk, giving me 2d10 unarmed damage and wis+4 AC!

Yes, that's it exactly. Remember that you can't take 10 on Use Magic Device, and the DC is 40. Also if you roll a 1 and fail you can't try to activate the item again for 24 hours.

[Aximili]

Yes, that's it exactly. Remember that you can't take 10 on Use Magic Device, and the DC is 40. Also if you roll a 1 and fail you can't try to activate the item again for 24 hours.

But you can't activate continuous items at all.
You put them on and they are working (though some take 24h to start working).
They are not use-activated, nor Comand-word-activated. They're continuous.

[Arbitrarity]

Which is the ONE part of my post he didn't quote.

[Person_Man]

Alright, related question. I have a Fighter 8 with the Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Improved Natural Attack feats (for a base unarmed damage of 2d6) who might get a Monk's Belt at her next major windfall. Assuming that she obtains it before gaining another level, would she be treated as a Monk 9 for a (now static) base damage of 2d8? would the Belt move her five levels up the SUS table (still 2d8 but able to increase at 11)? something else entirely?

Monk's Belt:

The wearer’s AC and unarmed damage is treated as a monk of five levels higher. If donned by a character with the Stunning Fist feat, the belt lets her make one additional stunning attack per day. If the character is not a monk, she gains the AC and unarmed damage of a 5th-level monk. This AC bonus functions just like the monk’s AC bonus.

Superior Unarmed Strike

You deal more damage with your unarmed strikes, as shown on the table below... If you are a monk, you instead deal damage as a monk four levels higher.

So unless you "are a monk" (or a variant Swordsage, with your DM's approval) I would probably say no. Even a Swordsage might not slip by and I'd have to change the build I posted above, since they are technically not "a monk" but rather use the Monk's unarmed damage progression. It's a tough DM call. For balance reasons, I'd probably just give it to you, since you're giving up so much damage from forgoing two handed Power Attack.

[Darrin]

So unless you "are a monk" (or a variant Swordsage, with your DM's approval) I would probably say no. Even a Swordsage might not slip by and I'd have to change the build I posted above, since they are technically not "a monk" but rather use the Monk's unarmed damage progression. It's a tough DM call. For balance reasons, I'd probably just give it to you, since you're giving up so much damage from forgoing two handed Power Attack.

HordeCommander5: I'm not sure you can use Improved Natural Attack for a non-monk Unarmed Strike. I thought treating unarmed strikes as natural attacks was a special feature of the monk class, and not something granted by Improved Unarmed Strike.

Person_Man, how would Fist of the Forest work with a non-monk + Superior Unarmed Strike? Would FotF bump up the Superior Armed Strike damage up one/two steps? Would it continue to bump up the damage above what was listed on the Superior Unarmed Strike table, or does the table effectively "end" at character level 20?

[Person_Man]

HordeCommander5: I'm not sure you can use Improved Natural Attack for a non-monk Unarmed Strike. I thought treating unarmed strikes as natural attacks was a special feature of the monk class, and not something granted by Improved Unarmed Strike.

Unarmed Attacks are natural attacks. Thus, any player can take Improved Natural Attack to increase his size as it pertains to calculating unarmed damage, including a Monk. It's specifically referenced in the official FAQ.

Person_Man, how would Fist of the Forest work with a non-monk + Superior Unarmed Strike? Would FotF bump up the Superior Armed Strike damage up one/two steps? Would it continue to bump up the damage above what was listed on the Superior Unarmed Strike table, or does the table effectively "end" at character level 20?

FotF is written in such a way that it stacks with virtually anything. Your unarmed damage becomes 1d8 after one level of FotF, and 1d10 after 3 levels of FotF. "If your unarmed damage already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the Monk table." So virtually any build gets 2 damage bumps from just 3 levels of FotF.

After 20th level Monk damage were achieved, it would theoretically "end" since there is no step above 2d10 indicated on the Monk table. Which means that optimally you want to get 2d6 damage however you can, (including 12 Monk or Swordsage or PrC, and/or virtual Monk levels through items/feats) which would put your damage at 2d6. Follow that with 3 levels of FotF for 2d10 damage. Follow that with SIZE increases from Expansion and/or Warshaper and/or Improved Natural Attack. It should be quite easy to get to 12d8 unarmed damage by mid levels.


Here's a list of ways to increase unarmed damage, FYI.

Spoiler

Show

Initiate of Draconic Mysteries: 2 Die Step (Draconomicon, pg 131)
Mighty Whallop, Greater (CL20): 5 Size Step (Races of Dragon, pg 115)
Improved Natural Attack: 1 Size Step (Monster Manual)
Warshaper, Morphic Weapons: 1 Size Step (Complete Warrior, pg 90)
Righteous Might, perm'd: 1 Size Step (PHB)
Ectoplasmic Fist: 1 Size Step (ECS, pg 264)
Empty Hand Mastery(OA): 1 Size Step (OA, pg 80)
Monk's Belt: increases effective monk lvl by 5 (DMG)
Monk's Tattoo: increases effective monk lvl by 4 (Magic of Faerun, pg 163)
Gauntlets of the Talon: increases effective monk lvl by 5 (Complete Divine, pg 97)
Superior Unarmed Strike: increases effective monk lvl by 4 (Tome of Battle, pg 33)

There's also this table from another thread:

Monk levels increases:
Monk's Belt (Dungeon Master's Guide): +5 levels; 12,000 gp
Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun): +4 levels; 80,000 gp
Gloves of the Talon (Complete Divine; requires True Believer feat): +5 levels; 20,000 gp
Two levels of the Swift Scion PrC (Unearthed Arcana): +4 levels
Total levels available: 18

Size increases:
Fanged Ring (Dragon #308); 10,000 gp
One level of Warshaper (Complete Warrior; must be able to change shape)
Improved Natural Attack feat (Eberron/Savage Species/Monster Manual; requires BAB +4)
Battlefist (Eberron; requires at least one level in monk for size increase); 2,600 gp
Ectoplasmic Fist Shard (Eberron); 4,000 gp
Expansion (Expanded Psionics Handbook; 1st-level psychic warrior power) - may be manifested twice: first time costs one point; second time costs an additional six points
Metamorphosis (Expanded Psionics Handbook) - 4th-level Egoist power
Empty Hand Mastery (Oriental Adventures; requires Power Attack, Improved Sunder, Improved Unarmed Strike, Eagle Claw Attack and Fists of Iron feats)
Sharptooth (Draconomicon; 4th-level sorcerer/4th-level wizard spell)
Earth Hammer (Races of Stone; 5th-level cleric/3rd-level paladin spell)
Stone Fist (Races of Stone; 2nd-level cleric/2nd-level paladin spell) - damage increases according to size (given on table); not a true concrete size increase
Totem Avatar, soulmeld (Magic of Incarnum), chakra bind (shoulders)
Total size increases available: 12/13

Die increases:
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries (Draconomicon) 4 (requires Alertness, Improved Unarmed Strike and Power Attack feats)
Initiate of the Draconic Mysteries 8
Acolyte of the Fist (Dragon #296) 4 (requires Improved Unarmed Strike, Iron Will and Stunning Fist feats)
Acolyte of the Fist (Dragon #296) 8
Total die increases: 4

[Quietus]

Why does this thread want me to supply a password?

[Fax Celestis]

Why does this thread want me to supply a password?

It's someone's avatar. It's hosted on a locked server.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

HordeCommander5 to be exact.


Edit:
Let us hope it is resolved soon.

[Fax Celestis]

Judging by the way the single post acts, I'd say HordeCommander5.

[the_tick_rules]

someone should ask the wizards people this question, if they haven't already.

[Tokiko Mima]

Unarmed Attacks are natural attacks. Thus, any player can take Improved Natural Attack to increase his size as it pertains to calculating unarmed damage, including a Monk. It's specifically referenced in the official FAQ.

Natural attacks and unarmed strikes aren't actually the same thing. It in some cases it is treated as both a manufactured weapon and a natural attack, and in some cases it's treated as neither.

Unarmed Strikes and Natural Weaponry

Before we move on, it's worth pointing out that a character making an unarmed attack, even with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, does not have natural weapons. Nor is a natural weapon a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat.

As we saw in Part One, unarmed strikes allow iterative attacks and natural weapons do not.

A feat that requires natural weaponry as a prerequisite, such as Multiattack, doesn't work with unarmed strikes. Likewise, having a natural weapon is not a substitute for the Improved Unarmed Strike feat. For example, you don't meet the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite for the Deflect Arrows feat if you just have a natural weapon.

Remember, however, that magic weapon enhancements that work with natural weaponry, such as the 'magic fang' spell, also work with unarmed attacks. This rule allows pugilists and martial artists access to some magic weapon enhancements (also see the next section). It also reflects the fact that a creature making an unarmed strike is using part of its body in the attack.

Monk Unarmed Strike Class Feature

The monk class offers a potent subcategory of unarmed attack. The class provides Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat, but the monk class offers some additional benefits for when fighting without weapons:

• A monk's unarmed strikes can be treated as either manufactured or natural weapons when applying spells or effects that enhance either manufactured or natural weapons. For example, either a magic weapon spell or a magic fang spell can enhance a monk's unarmed attacks.

This allows a monk access to all manner of weapon enhancements for her unarmed strikes. For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage.

• A monk can make unarmed strikes with either hand interchangeably or with a knee, elbow, or foot.

A monk does not suffer an off-hand penalty when attacking unarmed. That is, the monk does not take any attack penalty and gains her full Strength bonus to damage (if any) no matter which appendage the monk uses to make the unarmed attack.

This rule doesn't exempt monks from two-weapon combat penalties (see below).

• A monk's unarmed strike damage increases with levels in the class.

A monk uses the unarmed strike damage entry for her monk level on Table 3-10 in the Player's Handbook (or on Table 3-11 for a Small or Large monk) instead of the normal unarmed strike damage for the character's size (see Part One).

A monk's unarmed strike threatens a critical hit on an attack roll of 20 and deals double damage on a confirmed critical hit.

• An unarmored monk can use a flurry of blows.

When unarmored (that is, when not wearing a suit of armor or using a shield), a monk using the full attack action can make one extra attack when attacking without a weapon or when using a special monk weapon.

Depending on the monk's class level, the extra attack might or might not impose an attack penalty (see the monk class description). If there is a penalty, it applies to all attacks the monk makes (such as attacks of opportunity) until the monk's next turn begins.

A monk cannot use a flurry when using anything other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon. A non-monk weapon or a natural weapon can't be combined with a flurry in any way.

Link here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

[Person_Man]

STUFF.

Link here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a

I'm not sure why you posted that. The lengthy quote you provided supported my point. Perhaps you should read it. "For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage."

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

I'm not sure why you posted that. The lengthy quote you provided supported my point. Perhaps you should read it. "For example, a monk can use the Improved Natural Attack feat to increase her unarmed strike damage."

I think the point is that you said:

Unarmed Attacks are natural attacks. Thus, any player can take Improved Natural Attack to increase his size as it pertains to calculating unarmed damage, including a Monk. It's specifically referenced in the official FAQ.

This is not the case. What the FAQ and the RotG article says is that Monk's qualify for Improved Natural Attack, not that everyone does.

Unarmed Attacks are not natural attacks, but a Monk's are treated as such for various purposes.