Dip level or Martial Weapon Proficiency?

[...Eh?]

I'm writing up a combat-oriented human rogue for a PbP game on another forum, and I'm thinking of using a martial weapon. It's ECL 1, 40 pt. buy, have to ask for anything that's not core, Draconomicon, a PHBII feat, or C. Scoundrel. ToB and ToM are banned, as well as psionics. I'm not trying to go overboard with the optimization (I've been told large amounts of cheese will meet untimely demises) just trying to make a decent combat rogue. Here are my ideas at the moment:

Straight Rogue, taking Weapon Focus (Halberd) and MWP Halberd.

Straight Rogue again, Monkey Grip (Homebrewed version, same thing, but no penalty on attack rolls) and some other feat, using a morningstar or spear.

Fighter 1, later multiclassing to Rogue, taking Combat Reflexes, TWF, and Weapon Focus (Halberd), then taking Spinning Halberd at third level.

Suggestions/comments/questions/better builds/better ideas/fish/telling me I'm an idiot/laughing at the idea of someone taking Monkey Grip/wondering why I would take a halberd instead of a better weapon?

[Fax Celestis]

Third option is probably your best bet.

[Person_Man]

Weapon Focus, Halberd prof, and Monkey Grip (even your house rule version) are bad ideas.

In general, weak feats add minor bonuses, and strong feats add an ability you can't get with a magic item or have damage that scales with levels.

If those class combo options are you only choices, the third is the best.

If not, I suggest Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 17 with the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel. Decent Skills. 10d6 Sneak Attack. 19/20 BAB. Insightful Strike and free Weapon Focus. Not particularly strong, but decent enough for what you're looking for.

[Fax Celestis]

That is indeed a good build right there. Perhaps even going more defensive and taking Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense (CScn), and using the Shield of Blades variant in the PHB-II.

[Soepvork]

How about option 4:

Base (LA+0) Tiefling/Rogue 1

In any case, I'd start with a level rogue first. I'll take 24 skill points over 4 hp points any time (starting with a rogue level compared to starting with a fighter level)

[Keld Denar]

One prob what most of what you posted is that weapon focus requries a +1 BAB first. You can't take it at 1st level as a rogue. Sorry.

[JackMage666]

If you're going Human, Fighter 2/Rogue X isn't all that bad. No multiclassing penalties, two bonus feats, a bit of extra health, and the proficiencies.

Though the Swashbuckler build is pretty good too.

[...Eh?]

Weapon Focus, Halberd prof, and Monkey Grip (even your house rule version) are bad ideas.

<_< Not sure why I put Weapon Focus for the first one. I need it for Spinning Halberd in the third build.

How about option 4:

Base (LA+0) Tiefling/Rogue 1

Erm...I'm not sure that has anything to do with weapon proficiency or feats at all.

One prob what most of what you posted is that weapon focus requries a +1 BAB first. You can't take it at 1st level as a rogue. Sorry.

Oops. It'd still work for the Fighter build, though, the only one where it's needed.

Anyways, the build Person_Man posted looks good, although I was under the impression that Swashbuckler beyond 3 was fairly awful.

[Cybren]

Tieflings are outsiders so they are proficient with all martial weapons.

[Arbitrarity]

It's because it progresses sneak attack, along with full BAB. Other than that, it's Meh.

[Darrin]

How about option 4:

Base (LA+0) Tiefling/Rogue 1

In any case, I'd start with a level rogue first. I'll take 24 skill points over 4 hp points any time (starting with a rogue level compared to starting with a fighter level)

Tiefling Racial Class:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

Option 5: Take the "Otherworldly" feat instead of MWP. This makes you an outsider and gives you proficiency with all martial weapons. More or less similar to a LA+0 Tiefling, except a Human outsider would get more skill points.

Even with a homebrewed version, I'd heed Person_Man's advice about Monkey Grip, since it doesn't scale as you level up.

Have you considered Rogue 1/Swashbuckler X or Rogue 3/Swashbuckler X with the Daring Outlaw feat (full sneak attack progression)? A LA+0 Tiefling with their racial abilities (Darkvision, +2 on Bluff and Hide, Lesser Darkness, resistance 2 to cold/fire/electricity). Take your Tiefling Racial level whenever, which gives you +2 Int (more Precise Strike damage), Darkness 1/day, and energy resistance 5.

I was going to suggest the Craven feat at 1st level (+1 damage/character level to sneak attack, -2 on Will saves) but that's pretty firmly over in "Broken" territory.

If you're going to do TWF with a halberd and an offhand weapon, just use armor spikes. Then you can use the halberd THF *and* TWF *and* Power Attack. (As for me, I'm a sucker for double Bastard Swords with Oversize TWF.)

[...Eh?]

It's because it progresses sneak attack, along with full BAB. Other than that, it's Meh.

So does the Thug fighter variant.

Hmm...I like the armor spikes idea...that's two halberd attacks and an armor spike attack at level 3...but then there's an XP penalty if I decide to go for Daring Outlaw afterwards. Meh...one or the other, I guess.

[PinkysBrain]

Just curious, why exactly does your character want to use a halberd?

[...Eh?]

Well, Spinning Halberd for the mostpart, and because it's slightly more rogueish than a greatsword. Not by much, though.

[Telonius]

I'm writing up a combat-oriented human rogue for a PbP game on another forum, and I'm thinking of using a martial weapon. It's ECL 1, 40 pt. buy, have to ask for anything that's not core, Draconomicon, a PHBII feat, or C. Scoundrel. ToB and ToM are banned, as well as psionics. I'm not trying to go overboard with the optimization (I've been told large amounts of cheese will meet untimely demises) just trying to make a decent combat rogue. Here are my ideas at the moment:

Straight Rogue, taking Weapon Focus (Halberd) and MWP Halberd.

Straight Rogue again, Monkey Grip (Homebrewed version, same thing, but no penalty on attack rolls) and some other feat, using a morningstar or spear.

Fighter 1, later multiclassing to Rogue, taking Combat Reflexes, TWF, and Weapon Focus (Halberd), then taking Spinning Halberd at third level.

Suggestions/comments/questions/better builds/better ideas/fish/telling me I'm an idiot/laughing at the idea of someone taking Monkey Grip/wondering why I would take a halberd instead of a better weapon?

None of the above. If you're taking Rogue at all, take it at first level. Those extra skill points are gone forever if you don't. Then, take a level of Fighter, Ranger, or whatever to get the extra feat and proficiencies.

[Quietus]

Just to throw things for another fun little loop here, I'll stick my nose in. I'm the primary DM and the admin of the board that this will be played on, so I'll clear a couple things up :

First, he won't need to spend a feat on proficiency. I give all characters a single proficiency feat for free. So no Prof. (Halberd) on a straight rogue, he's already got it if he wants it.

Second - as far as the swashbuckler/rogue combo goes, I know that my helper DM (who conveniently hasn't bothered to show since I started the testing phase we're in.. *Grumbles*) isn't fond of ANYTHING in the Complete books, and would rather put an all-out ban on them. Personally, I am a little more lenient, and I'll allow things on a case-by-case basis. The swashbuckler/rogue thing I'd be okay with, same with the thug variant fighter.

Another small houserule to take into account : Use Magic Device doesn't exist. Casters remain casters, their cheese level kept in check by a mutually assured destruction system, not by rogues pretending to be wizards.


And just in case anyone was confused with the OP's list of books allowed :

Books allowed :
Player's Handbook
Player's Handbook 2 (Feats only, no tactical feats allowed)
Dungeon Master's Guide
Draconomicon
Complete Scoundrel (No skill tricks, we're lenient about letting players be creative)

Books which you need not ask about, flat-out no :
Tome of Battle
Tome of Magic
Expanded Psionics Handbook
Complete Psionic
Any Setting book



::Edit:: Just thought I'd throw this out there... the idea of a rogue hacking away with a halberd is awesome.

[...Eh?]

First, he won't need to spend a feat on proficiency. I give all characters a single proficiency feat for free. So no Prof. (Halberd) on a straight rogue, he's already got it if he wants it.

Awesome. So, here's my thoughts:

Rogue 1: Sneak attack, plus skill points.
Fighter 1: Extra feat so I can take Spinning Halberd at 3rd level.
Rogue 2: And probably just gonna stay with rogue the whole ride through from then on in.

This way, I'm still getting sneak attack and rogue abilities, the weapons style feat, and I'm stepping on the anti-Complete DM's toes as little as possible. Usable?

[Quietus]

Awesome. So, here's my thoughts:

Rogue 1: Sneak attack, plus skill points.
Fighter 1: Extra feat so I can take Spinning Halberd at 3rd level.
Rogue 2: And probably just gonna stay with rogue the whole ride through from then on in.

This way, I'm still getting sneak attack and rogue abilities, the weapons style feat, and I'm stepping on the anti-Complete DM's toes as little as possible. Usable?

I should point out, that Spinning Halberd requires three feats to qualify : Combat Reflexes, Weapon Focus, and Two-Weapon Fighting. If you're human, the above that you set out will work. If you're not, you'll need to take level 3 as Fighter to fit in spinning halberd at 3rd.

If you're going human, however, that'll make for a nice looking setup. The -5 penalty with the back end of your halberd, combined with the penalty for TWF with spiked armor, will be a bitch to try and hit with, I don't see that as being even remotely unbalancing. And like I said, the idea of a rogue fighting with that weapon style, in my head, is just spectacular.

[CASTLEMIKE]

Start with Rogue first then Fighter unless you don't use skills in your campaign. Some Ninja could be nice for abilities and Sudden Strike stacking with Sneak Attack.

[Nifft]

Spinning Halberd seems kinda weak. Wouldn't you rather be using your halberd to trip people?

1/ Barbarian 1 -- Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
2/ Rogue 1
3/ Rogue 2 -- Power Attack
4/ Rogue 3
5/ Rogue 4
6/ Rogue 5 -- Extra Rage or Weapon Focus (halberd)

Cheers, -- N

[...Eh?]

Spinning Halberd is TWF with no penalty on the first attack and a Str mod and a half bonus to damage, rather than half a Str mod. It could also be TWF'd in conjunction with armor spikes, so you now have 3 attacks+any extra attacks from BAB. Plus, I've never really liked the idea of someone who focuses on just tripping/disarming/bull rushing/is generally a one-trick pony.

Although, I'm think of dropping the armor spikes, considering I have a -2 to hit with them between TWF and non-proficency. I dunno.

[Quietus]

Spinning Halberd is TWF with no penalty on the first attack and a Str mod and a half bonus to damage, rather than half a Str mod. It could also be TWF'd in conjunction with armor spikes, so you now have 3 attacks+any extra attacks from BAB. Plus, I've never really liked the idea of someone who focuses on just tripping/disarming/bull rushing/is generally a one-trick pony.

Although, I'm think of dropping the armor spikes, considering I have a -2 to hit with them between TWF and non-proficency. I dunno.

You'd pick up armor spike proficiency with your Fighter level, come level 2. That isn't so much of a problem. However, spinning halberd DOES have a penalty - assuming you were using spinning halberd + twf, you'd have two attacks at -2 (primary halberd + armor spikes), and one at -7 (the back end of the halberd). If you don't TWF, it's one primary with the halberd and one at -5.

[...Eh?]

Alright, now that I've got the concept sorted out, I think it's time to ask you guys to pick Led Stoutpike over for screw-ups.

[Quietus]

Alright, now that I've got the concept sorted out, I think it's time to ask you guys to pick Led Stoutpike over for screw-ups.

I only catch one thing - your armor spikes are listed to have a -2 penalty to attack rolls. They're light weapons, and you have TWF, so they're actually a +2 bonus.

Other than that, I don't catch any problems with it.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Third option is probably your best bet.

Starting as fighter? I'd have thought 8 x 4 skill points made the Rogue the first option at first level.

[lord_khaine]

for that matter, it would be nice to know what lv you are aiming to end at.

[Leon]

Looks ok, i'd move the 8 from WIS out and a 10 in just so your not at a Sav penalty

Spiked chainmail seems a lil bizzare to me but what ever floats ya boat

Overall: Great choice of weapon, Halberds rock

[...Eh?]

I only catch one thing - your armor spikes are listed to have a -2 penalty to attack rolls. They're light weapons, and you have TWF, so they're actually a +2 bonus.

Other than that, I don't catch any problems with it.

I'm not proficient with them.

[Quietus]

I'm not proficient with them.

... Duh. You're right, then, and it looks good. Side effect of free proficiencies for everyone and D&D all day... you miss the obvious sometimes.

[Mike_G]

I'm writing up a combat-oriented human rogue for a PbP game on another forum, and I'm thinking of using a martial weapon. It's ECL 1, 40 pt. buy, have to ask for anything that's not core, Draconomicon, a PHBII feat, or C. Scoundrel. ToB and ToM are banned, as well as psionics. I'm not trying to go overboard with the optimization (I've been told large amounts of cheese will meet untimely demises) just trying to make a decent combat rogue. Here are my ideas at the moment:

Straight Rogue, taking Weapon Focus (Halberd) and MWP Halberd.

Straight Rogue again, Monkey Grip (Homebrewed version, same thing, but no penalty on attack rolls) and some other feat, using a morningstar or spear.

Fighter 1, later multiclassing to Rogue, taking Combat Reflexes, TWF, and Weapon Focus (Halberd), then taking Spinning Halberd at third level.

Suggestions/comments/questions/better builds/better ideas/fish/telling me I'm an idiot/laughing at the idea of someone taking Monkey Grip/wondering why I would take a halberd instead of a better weapon?

Go Rogue at 1st, for the x4 multiplier on skill points. At 2nd level Fighter/Rogue, the difference in skill points is 34 points if you go Rogue at level 1, and 16 if you go Fighter at level 1.

If you want to be a good Rogue, it's all about the skill points.

Go Rogue at 1st, then dip Fighter for the Martial proficiency and bonus feat.