Zen Archery

[daggaz]

Just curious, as I am starting a new campaign and I want to keep it somewhat limited to my knowledge, without crimping the players too much..

Is this feat cheesable or overpowered, and if so, how? I have a player who expressed interest... Also, is it something that is dependant on using a lot of ToB, because I am not entirely sure I will allow this book for various reasons..

[Aximili]

Neither. It's a perfectly reasonable feat.

[Dhavaer]

It's a reasonable feat with nothing to do with ToB.

[Rachel Lorelei]

I think you should allow ToB. It's a great book that adds a lot to the game. It's not just about higher-level power: ToB melee character are a lot more fun to play.

With that said, Zen Archery isn't really that cheeseable, no. The most it does is makes otherwise two-stat-dependant builds single-stat-based.

Here're the best uses of Zen Archery I can think of off the top of my head, not being up on all the latest tricks and what-not:

-Cleric-Archer. Cleric 20, or whatever prestige classes you like, just taking archery feats. Zen Archery makes him a better caster than he otherwise would be, but warrior-clerics don't cast spells with DCs all -that- often anyway.

-Soulbow. Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1 or 10, combined with whatever you want to fill in the gaps with. WIS to AB, WIS to damage. Add in Monk or Swordsage for WIS to AC. Soulknife 2/Monk 2/Soulbow 1/Psychich Warrior 15 makes for a great archer with consistent damage output, solid AB, mobility via Psychic Warrior powers, and some versatility.

-Total Wisdom synergy, for example a Rogue 1/Monk 2/Soulknife 2/Soulbow 1/Chameleon 10/Soulknife rest--WIS to AB, AC, damage, spellcasting.


Like people said, it has nothing to do with ToB--Tome of Battle has pretty much nothing for archers.

[Ulzgoroth]

Um, Zen Archery isn't ToB at all. It's in Complete Warrior.

You can probably make archer CZilla cheese out of it somehow. Most classes don't get much from it...rangers need dex for AC anyway, druids spend their time without hands as a rule, and I don't think a monk archer would be a big deal.

[Roland St. Jude]

I would put it in the strong, but not cheesy, category. And it has nothing to do with ToB.

[daggaz]

Hmm thanks, for some reason he said it was in ToB, which I dont have so I didnt know. I did tell him it would probably be ok, just wanted to check it out first to be sure.

[PinkysBrain]

If you aren't going to allow ToB then giving cleric freebies to allow them to pile even more on their wisdom score isn't necessary ... unless you are really dying to play with team cleric.

[Damionte]

I'd put this feat in the nearly useless category myself. Anyone who is actually tryign to concentrate on being an archer won't realyl need it as thier Dex will be high enough. (This feat doesn't add on to your bonus from Dex, it replaces it.)

Anyone not focused on archery probably won't have the bonus feats to waste on something like this one that does so little.

[Rachel Lorelei]

I'd put this feat in the nearly useless category myself. Anyone who is actually tryign to concentrate on being an archer won't realyl need it as thier Dex will be high enough. (This feat doesn't add on to your bonus from Dex, it replaces it.)

Anyone not focused on archery probably won't have the bonus feats to waste on something like this one that does so little.

See above. A cleric-archer typically either takes the War domain for a longbow deity as a human or the Elf domain as an elf, getting either proficiency or point-blank shot for free. The human then takes PBS and Precise Shot; the elf just takes Precise Shot. After that, Zen Archery at 3rd level and Rapid Shot at 6th level (or vice-versa, depending on your dex) make you a perfectly competent archer in addition to your spellcasting.

The same applies to Psychic Warriors, who definitely have a feat to spare for Zen Archery and don't need to acquire proficiency.

The feat isn't useless for characters who already use wisdom as a primary stat (thus negating the need for a secondary stat) or as a secondary stat (thus elevating it to primary stat).

[daggaz]

He is actually going to play a monk, I believe, so I figured what the hell, anything that helps his character out in any way I am probably going to allow. Just wanted to be sure about possible cheese effects tho, as I dont have all the books and I do like to keep tabs on things like that, just in case.
Thanks again for the feedback.

[UserClone]

I'd put this feat in the nearly useless category myself. Anyone who is actually tryign to concentrate on being an archer won't realyl need it as thier Dex will be high enough. (This feat doesn't add on to your bonus from Dex, it replaces it.)

As a bit of an aside, an Order of the bow initiate, at least the version from sword and fist, adds WIS to DEX when he gains Zen as a bonus feat, providing he has already taken Zen as a previous feat. In other words: level 1 fighter takes zen archery, then chooses the higher of his WIS or DEX bonus. then when he gains Zen as a bonus feat from OBI, he lumps them together.

Also, other than that, and flavor, I kinda hate OBI.

[Darrin]

As a bit of an aside, an Order of the bow initiate, at least the version from sword and fist, adds WIS to DEX when he gains Zen as a bonus feat, providing he has already taken Zen as a previous feat. In other words: level 1 fighter takes zen archery, then chooses the higher of his WIS or DEX bonus. then when he gains Zen as a bonus feat from OBI, he lumps them together.

Also, other than that, and flavor, I kinda hate OBI.

The 3.0 version of Order of the Bow Initiate has been replaced with the 3.5 version in Complete Warrior. The new version is so packed with suckitude, it makes a sphere of annihilation look like Happy Fun Ball. (No wis/zen bonus, and ranged precision damage out to 30' as a standard action.)

[Ikkitosen]

It's kinda hard to get much out of Zen Archery unless you houserule that Wis replaces Dex for archery feat pre-reqs once you have it.

[Rachel Lorelei]

It's kinda hard to get much out of Zen Archery unless you houserule that Wis replaces Dex for archery feat pre-reqs once you have it.

Point-Blank, Precise, and Rapid Shot--the only ones you really *need*--don't have a dex requirement over 13.

[Skjaldbakka]

If he is playing a monk, push Intuitive Strike. Its from BoED, and allows wisdom for all attacks with simple weapons. It really makes monk more worthwhile, as it gets rid of MAD.

[SadisticFishing]

If he is playing a monk, push Intuitive Strike. Its from BoED, and allows wisdom for all attacks with simple weapons. It really makes monk more worthwhile, as it gets rid of MAD.

Vow of Poverty too :D

Although... this does kind of "limit" his roleplaying options, or at least choose them for him.

[Zeful]

What's MAD?

[Fax Celestis]

What's MAD?

Multiple Attribute Dependency.

[Neon Knight]

Multiple Attribute Dependency. A class with MAD depends on multiple attributes to be even mildly effective.

Thus, the Monk, requiring STR, DEX, WIS, and CON, suffers from this.

EDIT: NINJA'ED!

[Ikkitosen]

Point-Blank, Precise, and Rapid Shot--the only ones you really *need*--don't have a dex requirement over 13.

True at low levels, or for a mediocre high level archer, yes. Improved Precise Shot - a brilliant and powerful feat - requires Dex 19 however. Having this plus a maxed out Wis is unlikely unless you play a particularly high powered game.

[TheOOB]

True at low levels, or for a mediocre high level archer, yes. Improved Precise Shot - a brilliant and powerful feat - requires Dex 19 however. Having this plus a maxed out Wis is unlikely unless you play a particularly high powered game.

On the other hand divine spellcasters, whom this feat benefits most, have better things to spend their high level feat slots on.

The feat is fine, in and of itself it does nothing, but can make a character who would otherwise be bad at archery good at it. That said archery isn't all that powerful and most high WIS characters have better things to do with their turns then shoot a few arrows.

The feat itself seems kinda off however, I imagine something like the following discussion lead to it's creation.

WOTC Employee DM: The elven cleric pulls back his bow string and lets an arrow fly, hitting you from across the 200 foot chasm.

WOTC Employee PC: How? He's wearing full-plate, their is no way his DEX is high enough to be a good archer.

WOTC Employee DM: Ummm...well....he has a feat! (scribbles something in his notes) see "Zen Archery" lets him use his wisdom bonus for ranged attacks.

[Damionte]

TheOOB is pretty much echoing my sentiments on this feat. Those who would need this feat to be good at archery usually have mre important things to spend thier feats on.

A cleric doesn't have a lot of feats to spare. It would actually be easier for a cleric to get a decently high dex and wisdom instead of burning a feat on this one.

16 dex and 16 Wis is good enough for a 1st lvl cleric archer to be good at both. The cleric can then put thier increases at 4,8,12 and so on into thier wisdom to get thier late level spells as they go.

Even if they can only get a 14 dex it's probably good enough. If I have a 14 dex and a 20 wisdom I still wouldn't burn anything on this feat. +3 to hit is not good enough to burn a feat on. It would be if Zen archery led into anything else, or opened up other feats but it doesn't. I'd rather spend a feat on gaining an ability I didn't already have.

[Evil DM Mark3]

WOTC Employee DM: The elven cleric pulls back his bow string and lets an arrow fly, hitting you from across the 200 foot chasm.

WOTC Employee PC: How? He's wearing full-plate, their is no way his DEX is high enough to be a good archer.

Please tell me you know that the max dex bonus aplies to AC only...

[TheOOB]

Please tell me you know that the max dex bonus aplies to AC only...

I do know, but typically speaking you don't have enough high attributes to invest heavily into DEX when you're not going to get the full AC bonus out of it.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Ah cool, I am just used to seeing full plate archers (I have little idea why as some had the dex to fully use padded armour but still)...