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2007-07-25, 01:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Hey all, I've got a friend looking for a weapon bonus/augment crystal/feat that gives a rogue sneak attack against targets that are normally immune, such as constructs, undead, and the like.
It's for an Eberron campaign that is apparently very heavy on warforged and souped-up undead.
I already know about the greater truedeath crystal from the MIC, but that is only useful against undead. I'm pretty sure I saw something out there for use against constructs.I am continuing to have a social life. Sorry for the inconvenience.
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2007-07-25, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
The spell Golemstrike lets you sneak attack constructs and Gravestrike lets you sneak attack undead. They're both first level spells, so a magic item with a few uses per day would be fairly cheap.
Complete Adventurer is the sourcebook for 'em, I should note.Last edited by Catch; 2007-07-25 at 01:39 AM.
Yotsubatar by Dr. Bath
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2007-07-25, 01:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
The Golemstrike spell, from Complete Adventurer and the Spell Compendium.
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2007-07-25, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-25, 01:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
The Demolition Crystal [constructs] and the Truedeath Crystal [undead] from the Magic Item Compendium.
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2007-07-25, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Well, there is the Mace of Smiting that destroies constructs on a crit (no save) but that is expensive. I'm sure that you can home brew something cheaper but reduced effectiveness using that as a reference.
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2007-07-25, 01:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Or you could just take the hit, and take the alternate level four ability (instead of Uncanny Dodge, which you get later instead of Imp. Uncanny Dodge) from the Player Handbook II. It lets you drop all sneak attack dice to give the target -5 to AC for a round. Now the heavy hitters can really Power Attack.
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2007-07-25, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
There's a feat floating around called Raizing strike that allows you to burn spell slots to strike undead and constructs. Though you have to be a divine or arcane caster to do it respectivally.
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2007-07-25, 03:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
our party rogue allways got a couple of wands of grave strike and golemstrike, cost allmost nothing due to being a lv 1 wand.
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2007-07-25, 04:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-25, 04:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2007
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- Novi Sad, Serbia
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2007-07-25, 04:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
most things immune to sneak attacks and critical hits have DR, you could houserule that if you can overcome DR you can also sneak attack etc. (eg: hitting a critical joint in a construct). this rule makes less sense for undead and NEVER apply it to oozes...NEVER.
or you could just homebrew a +3/+4 weapon property that does that for you. it would be a powerful weapon property, so it would have a powerful price.I'm back... possibly... any minute now... brb.
Horny Halfing Avatar by Anna Molly
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2007-07-25, 07:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Deathstrike Bracers (MIC 93, 5000 gp) lets him sneak attack anything for one round 3/day.
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2007-07-25, 08:13 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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2007-07-25, 10:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Gravestrike, Golem strike, and Vine Strike (undead, constructs, and plants, respectively) can be applied as a continuous on-hit affect to a weapon for a mere 8000gp a piece, using the "use activated or continuous" entry.
The formula, as outlined in the DMG, for "use activated or continuous" is "Spell Level * Caster Level * 2000". Since the duration of the original spell is measured in rounds (1 round, to be precise), we multiply this cost by 4.
Plugging in, we end up with (1 * 1 * 2000 * 4). 8000 gp.Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
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2007-07-25, 11:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Gnoll Paladin with Zanbatou Avatar by Oregano.
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Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
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2007-07-25, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
There are a bunch of feats in the various supplements that let you trade Sneak Attack dice for special attacks. Complete Adventurer and Scoundrel have most of them. Normally they're a poor trade, but if your enemy is otherwise only going to take half Sneak Attack damage, its a great idea.
Also, UMD is your best friend. There's a ton of anti-undead magic items out there. And remember, you can apply Sneak Attack to Touch Attacks or Ranged Touch Attacks, which opens up a lot of Wand possibilities for you.
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2007-07-25, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Actually, according to the rules of item creation, you should price continuous true strike according to its bonus provided instead of its spell level. The spell level formula is for spells that don't provide measurable bonuses.
Continuous true strike (that is, +20 on every attack roll) would be priced as an attack bonus: bonus squared * 2000.
However, that covers enhancement bonuses to items, so we can reasonably divide that cost in 2 for the purposes of this, since True Strike doesn't cover damage at all.
So: bonus squared * 1000, or (20*20)*1000.
Continuous True Strike costs 400,000gp.Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
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2007-07-25, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Gnoll Paladin with Zanbatou Avatar by Oregano.
Homebrews:
Originally Posted by ExHunterEmerald
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2007-07-25, 12:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
That seems underpriced to me and, I suspect, to most other DMs. According to the rules, the guidelines in the table for estimating magic item values come second to the DM's good sense.
According to the guidelines in the table for estimating magic item values an enhancement bonus to attack and damage is bonus squared * 2000. An insight bonus is better than an enhancement bonus, since it stacks with almost every other bonus from spells or magic items. The table doesn't even have an entry for pricing insight bonuses on attacks, suggesting that it's impossible.
The DMG does have non-enhancement bonus-to-attacks items: Pale Green Ioun Stone (+1 competence on attacks) and Bracers of Archery.
The ioun stone is 30 000 gp, so if you subtract the cost of a Stone of Good Luck (unslotted, same stackable bonuses for skills, checks and saves, 20 000 gp) you're left with 10 000 gp for an unslotted, stackable +1 on all attacks. That's 5000 gp if slotted. Lesser Bracers of Archery are indeed 5000 gp for +1 competence on attack rolls. Greater Bracers of Archery are 25 000 gp for +2 competence on attacks and +1 competence on damage, suggesting bonus squared * 5000 + 5000 = 25 000 .
Using this formula we get 20 * 20 * 5000 = 2 000 000gp for a slotted +20 insight bonus on attacks item.
If you're basing it on enhancement bonuses you need to first increase the price for being stackable - call it *2.5 based on stackable AC bonuses compared to an enhancement bonus to AC. (See table.) Then you can lower the price because the insight bonus doesn't increase damage, but multiplying with 2/3 seems more reasonable than 1/2 since AB is more valuable than damage. That makes 20*20*5000*(2/3) = 1 333 333gp .Last edited by Iku Rex; 2007-07-25 at 12:45 PM.
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2007-07-25, 12:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Uhhh... greater bracers of archery give you free bow proficiency, and furthermore, next to nothing gives you competence bonuses to attack. Fewer things, in fact, than luck bonuses. Competence bonues do NOT stack, circumstance bonuses do. Therefore, 10000 gp for a +1 non-stacking, unslotted item.
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2007-07-25, 12:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
I was going to make an argument here, but I'll just say, "What Arbitrarity said."
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2007-07-25, 02:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Huh? Your post doesn't make any sense.
What has the bow proficiency to do with anything?
And yes, next to nothing gives you competence bonuses to attacks. Next to nothing gives you luck bonuses to attack. Next to nothing gives you insight bonsues to attack. That's why I'm pricing them the same.
By "stackable" I mean that it stacks with almost every other bonus from spells or magic items. (It stacks with everything but itself.) I have no idea why you think "non-stacking" is a good way to describe a bonus that stacks with everything except "next to nothing" (as you put it). Enhancement bonuses on the other hand are common as dirt.
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2007-07-25, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
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2007-07-25, 02:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
So as to not derail the thread: The dungeonscape thing, a wand of the spells listed above, etc. work really well.
For somthing else:
In a two person undead campaign with a rogue, we created an item that lets you see pockets of concentrated negative energy on undead (which is what presumably animates them), and if your weapon was holy or dipped in holy water, you could use sneak attack (from a fluff standpoint you were disrupting those vitals).
You could do the same thing against constructs by seeing pockets of concentrated magical energy (which presumably animates them). The weapon would have to be magical.
Goggles, lenses would probably be the best slot to use. I admittedly never figured out a cost for this item, as it would seem silly for the rogue to want to sell it. I would guess it would cost w/e it would cost to have a continous 1st level spell.Last edited by BardicDuelist; 2007-07-25 at 02:49 PM.
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2007-07-25, 03:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
If you read the item description you'll discover that if you get the bonuses you don't get the proficiency (because you already have it). It wouldn't make sense to charge you extra for an ability you're never going to use.
It is not "remarkably easy" to acquire an insight bonus on attacks. Not a single core item provides it and other than true strike the only core spell that can do it is the 8th level moment of prescience. If you get one from an ability, feat, spell or item in a supplement it's usually to give you a bonus that will most likely stack with the bonuses you already have.
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2007-07-25, 03:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
Then what about, say... Skillful weapons? Free Proficiency, Use with 3/4 BAB. Cost? +2 equivalent enhancement.
Minor nitpick: True strike negates concealment, somewhat equivalent to a seeking weapon.
Proficiency is worth something, seeing as I often use lesser bracers of archery in conjunction with greatbows to get ranged attacks (particularly for warblades). Thereby, I postulate that randomnly adding together numbers, ignoring +1 damage on ranged attacks, and random jazz like that, makes me think that Greater Bracers of Archery provide the equivalent of a +1 to a weapon, compared to lesser bracers of archery, for 20K. Therefore, the bonus is 20K/+1, with some sort of scaling thingy. Potatoes.
There, that made no sense during the last 2/3. Furthermore, it directly contradicted other examples. Please allow me to think for a second, and recall something.
Oh yes. It would be cheaper to raise your strength score with a custom +40 str item!.
Really. Because you have to apply epic pricing to both, the epic strength enhancer is a mere 1.6 million gp (without epic pricing), with the same effect, and an enormous damage bonus.
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2007-07-25, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
What?
What does the skillful enhancement have to do with anything? That doesn't make any sense.
Good point with regards to Fax_Celestis' price. (I restricted myself to a +20 insight bonus on attacks to simplify matters.)
Yes they're "worth something" - but not if you already have the proficiency, and only then do you get the +1 competence bonus on attacks. If you're proficient you buy the lesser bracers for the +1 competence bonus. If you're not proficient you buy them for the proficiency. You don't get both.
Right. That does it. It's bunny time.
What made "more sense during the last 2/3".
If you're referring to me multiplying with 2/3 in my second example that's based on the "+1 attack bonus = +2 damage" rule of thumb for melee weapons. Power Attack is the feat manifestation of this. This means that a +1 bonus on attacks (=2 extra average damage) is worth roughly 2/3 of a +1 bonus on attacks and damage (=3 extra average damage).
Yes, it would be cheaper. Why? Because that would be a +40 enhancement bonus to Strength. Enhancement bonuses to ability scores are common. I guess you're going to disprove the existence of the Lesser Bracers of Archery next by pointing out that Gloves of Dexterity +2 are cheaper, provide the same bonus to your ranged attacks, and improve your AC, initiative, Dex skills, and reflex saves as well.Last edited by Iku Rex; 2007-07-25 at 04:06 PM.
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2007-07-25, 04:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
I'm not arguing this any more until three things: confrontationalism stops, a new thread is made, and all points are equally considered for validity.
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2007-07-25, 04:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Sneak Attack Against Those Normally Immune?
To begin. Skillful enhancement provides proficiency with a weapon that has it (when using that weapon), as well as providing 3/4 BAB. Thereby, proficiency has a value.
Yes they're "worth something" - but not if you already have the proficiency, and only then do you get the +1 competence bonus on attacks. If you're proficient you buy the lesser bracers for the +1 competence bonus. If you're not proficient you buy them for the proficiency. You don't get both.
Having multiple powers, even if they are not applicable to the same character, does not mean that they can be removed from pricing.
What a cute bunny
What made "more sense during the last 2/3".
If you're referring to me multiplying with 2/3 in my second example that's based on the "+1 attack bonus = +2 damage" rule of thumb for melee weapons. Power Attack is the feat manifestation of this. This means that a +1 bonus on attacks (=2 extra average damage) is worth roughly 2/3 of a +1 bonus on attacks and damage (=3 extra average damage).
Yes, it would be cheaper. Why? Because that would be a +40 enhancement bonus to Strength. Enhancement bonuses to ability scores are common. I guess you're going to disprove the existence of the Lesser Bracers of Archery next by pointing out that Gloves of Dexterity +2 are cheaper, provide the same bonus to your ranged attacks, and improve your AC, initiative, Dex skills, and reflex saves as well.
Ok, you know what? Screw it. We're making up custom items, debating pricing, pulling the thread of topic, and using costs which are only expressible in levels 30+, which are rarely, if ever, played. This has no relation to ANYTHING, except that Armour_Armadillo mentioned true strike, then fax mentiontioned how true strike SHOULD be priced, then you mentioned how YOU thought it should be priced. This is idiotic, tangential, and of no assistance to the OP.