Kender

[JNAProductions]

So. We all know Kender. Most of you hate them.

But, I plan on playing one soon. Currently, I'm going to play her as a very naive, innocent young lass, very touchy, always loves to meet people and go to new places, and will likely have multiple occasions of "Can I see that? Thanks!" and grabbing something, looking it over, marveling at its shininess, and returning it.

Overall, how would one play a kender, while sticking relatively close to the fluff, but not being a jerkbag?

[Geddy2112]

You can still do all that cutesy toxic Kender garbage, down to the rampant kleptomania, suicidal curiosity and inability to give a flip about serious danger.

The only two rules you need to know are
1. Don't steal from, or subject your party to those tropes.
2. Don't let this kind of behavior get your party into trouble.

Now,so long as you dont do those things, you can pull this sticky fingers mock your enemies rampant fearlessness. Heck, turn it up to 11.

[Segev]

The way Tasselhoff and other kender are portrayed in the source material, the player shouldn't ever be picking pockets (or should do so at least no more often than any other PC rogue of any other race does for adventuring purposes). The DM, on the other hand, should periodically roll for the kender, and make a note.

At the end of the day, the kender should be opening his bag of treasures and looking them over, and the DM should tell him what's in it. New acquisitions should be of particular note. This is when the other PCs (and any NPCs paying attention) should get a chance to see what the kender has subconsciously stolen over the day. (If the DM has the kender steal something that another character actually notices is missing when they try to use it, they can look to the kender and ask him to check his bag.)

Essentially, the kender should most likely be stealing incidental, unimportant things, even from fellow PCs. Too often, kender PCs have players who say, "I steal the paladin's holy avenger!" or other stupid, potentially power-gaming nonsense, and then try to hide behind "but my kender doesn't even realize he did it!"

That's the wrong way to do it. The kender doesn't realize he's doing it. So neither should the player. And the DM should be deciding WHAT is stolen, too. If the player wants something specific, he can have his kender consciously take it. But then he can't hide behind his racial ignorance of his own kleptomania.

[Oneris]

Despite what the racial description says, don't try to use your identity as a kender to escape culpability for your thieving. Even if you don't feel bad for having taken someone's stuff, still feel bad for having hurt them in some way and make amends.

Kender are childlike, not sociopaths. Too many players play kender as absolutely unimpacted by the reactions of others, and children are not like that. They may cry because they got yelled at and not entirely understand why they got yelled at, but more times than not they'll learn that some wrong was committed and try to make up. It could be in character to pick up a bauble or a token to bring as gift to a person you've wronged, trying to make them feel better the only way you know how.

'Handling' is not meant to be selfish or malicious, and kender are also not too unintelligent or ADHD to fail to see the implications of the items they've picked up. Maybe realize that the person whose shiny healing potion you picked up could be currently in trouble and desperately in need of healing and race back trying to save them. You could also give your kender a sense of fairness to balance out the handling and handle in more a 'leave a penny, take a penny' form, even if the actual value of the objects don't actually match.

Mainly, you are not entitled to everyone's acceptance and must earn your lovableness. That part was, in my personal opinion, the only part that really ruined the kender. No race should get a free pass to behave in a way that literally no one else in the world could get away with and not be stuck with the same consequences.

[Stealth Marmot]

The kender doesn't realize he's doing it.

Ironically they had a link to a webcomic to a character with a similar malady at the top of this site in the ad view. Check the webcomic Widdershins http://www.widdershinscomic.com/ and the character of Sidney Malik, who has a cursed item that will do a "magic trick" and steal people's stuff. He doesn't mean or intend to, but it makes for an actual conflict of the character when they do so.

I don't know enough about kender to say how accurate it is, but it gives some context to how a character could act.

[Segev]

Malik is aware of his "condition," and is highly apologetic for it. Kender are NOT aware, and believe (despite all evidence) that these things just are stuff they've found, or that happened to fall into their bags.

The advice about being worried because they found somebody's Important Item in their bag is good, though. "Wow! It's a good thing I found this ring of yours! I know it's very important to you. You'd have been heartbroken if you'd lost it!"

Bob Barbarian: Isn't that lord so-and-so's chalice that was on his mantle?
Ken Der: You're right! Man, he should be more careful where he puts it. It's a good thing it landed in my bag, or it might've broken when it fell. Should we go back and return it?

So yes, earn that lovability. Be kind-hearted. Give things that you "find" back to their rightful owners where possible. Help, selflessly and without fear.

[cobaltstarfire]

Segev pretty much nailed it.


It's kind of sad the reputation that Kender have just because so many people play them...maliciously. I really enjoyed Tass way back when I read some books with him in it, mostly for how bold, curious and generally friendly he was (and the weird friendship? he has with Flint). His little bag of tricks born from constantly picking things up always struck me as a secondary to his character.

[LibraryOgre]

When a friend of mine wanted to play a Kender in a Dragonlance game, I made a rule: You do not control your natural abilities. You can call on them at will, but you will frequently use them without being aware of it.

Are you standing next to someone with something shiny? You might try to pick their pocket.
Are you starting to mock someone? You don't get to "just" mock someone... you're taunting, and they might go into a rage because of it.

Locks will be picked, traps will be tested, buttons will be pushed, even if prudence say otherwise.

[Stealth Marmot]

When a friend of mine wanted to play a Kender in a Dragonlance game, I made a rule: You do not control your natural abilities. You can call on them at will, but you will frequently use them without being aware of it.

Are you standing next to someone with something shiny? You might try to pick their pocket.
Are you starting to mock someone? You don't get to "just" mock someone... you're taunting, and they might go into a rage because of it.

Locks will be picked, traps will be tested, buttons will be pushed, even if prudence say otherwise.

Which leads me to the question of "Who came up with this race as a playable character race and why hasn't anyone swatted him with a newspaper until he rewrote it?"

Seriously, it's like someone made up a race specifically designed to hurt group cohesion in character and out.

[LibraryOgre]

Which leads me to the question of "Who came up with this race as a playable character race and why hasn't anyone swatted him with a newspaper until he rewrote it?"

Seriously, it's like someone made up a race specifically designed to hurt group cohesion in character and out.

Because kender weren't written to hurt group cohesion... it's just that many people play them that way. The players steal from other party members and try to pass it off as "I'm just a kender!", rather than playing the kender's true innocence... they never steal the cheap glass bauble with the feathers and bells, they steal the boring wand of lightning that looks like a piece of wood.

Kender can be great team players, but they're also easily made into fun destroyers for other players... like a Paladin, in many ways, their personal code of behavior can either enhance the game or get in the way of it.

[Telok]

Which leads me to the question of "Who came up with this race as a playable character race and why hasn't anyone swatted him with a newspaper until he rewrote it?"

Seriously, it's like someone made up a race specifically designed to hurt group cohesion in character and out.

It was a character in a book first, then someone moved it over to a PC race and kept the stuff from the book. Things that work in literature but don't work in RPGs are not unusual.

Kender also have a thing about locked doors. A sort of incurable cultural dissonance issue. See, walls are meant to separate things. Like in a zoo, lions on one side, little meat snacks children on the other side. If there's an opening in a wall then people/things are supposed to pass through, like the doorways and windows in a house let people and light in. We note here that (to my recollection) kender homes don't have locks or doors. So a wall with a locked door in it is sort of like a pen with no ink or a blank d6, it's pretty much useless and broken. The kender who finds a locked door will have a strong desire to fix it.

[ATHATH]

Play a LN guy who's been reincarnated as a Kender, and is horrified at his new found kleptomania.

[Segev]

Kender can be great team players, but they're also easily made into fun destroyers for other players... like a Paladin, in many ways, their personal code of behavior can either enhance the game or get in the way of it.

And now I'm picturing an origin story of Kender being that they're the cast-off frivolity and chaos of a paladin who has undergone purification rituals to cure himself of these things. Because paladins are made from such good-hearted souls to begin with, both halves retain the goodness.

What should worry people is where the fear that neither of them now possess went.

[Stealth Marmot]

Because kender weren't written to hurt group cohesion... it's just that many people play them that way. The players steal from other party members and try to pass it off as "I'm just a kender!", rather than playing the kender's true innocence... they never steal the cheap glass bauble with the feathers and bells, they steal the boring wand of lightning that looks like a piece of wood.

Kender can be great team players, but they're also easily made into fun destroyers for other players... like a Paladin, in many ways, their personal code of behavior can either enhance the game or get in the way of it.

You CAN play with a Kender, but their most famous aspect is only going to be a potential hindrance towards the character's viability as a player character.

Truth be told, the paladin has the same problem. Hell, Roy even calls it out "What sort of class abilities are dependent on the actions of others anyway?"

They were strict in earlier editions and got looser later, but one needs to ask about the design "What does this add to the game?" These aspects are unique so one has to ask about why they were added.

If you add a mechanic, there is the underlying implication that it should come in play, otherwise it is superfluous. In other words, why have the paladin code unless it is meant to be tested?

On that same designer note, why have a kender have a compulsion that will potentially lead to miscommunication and problematic interactions unless the intent was that it be used? And while I can imagine situations of a kender's kleptomaniac tendencies could be used to further the plot in a progressive or positive way, I can see far more situations where the ability is either annoying, abusive, distracting, or disruptive.

While kleptomania for a specific character can work for that particular character's arc in overcoming a potential problem, having an entire race surrounding such a concept that is universally annoying yet only situationally positive towards proper character use is not an example of good design or forward thinking.

Also, having it as a racial trait implies that it is not meant to be overcome, just tolerated.

tl;dr Tasslehoff Burrfoot's kleptomania should have been a unique character trait rather than racial.

[Kashmir]

Assuming that the game would be set before the Dragon Overlords, Segev has some great insight to use. If set after the Dragon Overlords appearance then you've got a whole different ball of wax to play with.

[Bucky]

I'd choose to portray it as the Kender trying to be helpful. I'd try to, at least once per session, meet a challenge with "Well, we could use this." "Where did you get that?" "Eh, doesn't matter".

Or retroactively having borrowed things from party members in situations where it doesn't matter. "We could use my scroll of Knock..." "Here you go."

And the lack of concern for property rights should go both ways. You need to freely let the rest of the party use your stuff, or else it's unfair and out of character.

[RazorChain]

So. We all know Kender. Most of you hate them.

But, I plan on playing one soon. Currently, I'm going to play her as a very naive, innocent young lass, very touchy, always loves to meet people and go to new places, and will likely have multiple occasions of "Can I see that? Thanks!" and grabbing something, looking it over, marveling at its shininess, and returning it.

Overall, how would one play a kender, while sticking relatively close to the fluff, but not being a jerkbag?

Don't steal from your fellow adventurers.

The last kender in my group ended up tied upside down in the town square while people pelted him with rotten vegetables, no one in the party helped him out. He didn't get the hint so he stole THE ancestral goblet from the Dwarven Battlerager in the group. This was the goblet the Dwarf used to imbibe all his alchohol from so he was bound to find out. When the Dwarf found out he got furious so he pounded the kender unconscious and started to rummage through his sack. He found his goblet and a flask of very strong acid. The Dwarf then proceeded to pour the acid down the kenders throat while the rest of the party watched and did nothing.

Kender player: "But...but then I die"
GM (Me): "Yup, pretty much"
Followed by unsympathetic nods from the rest of the players.

[Stealth Marmot]

Don't steal from your fellow adventurers.

The last kender in my group ended up tied upside down in the town square while people pelted him with rotten vegetables, no one in the party helped him out. He didn't get the hint so he stole THE ancestral goblet from the Dwarven Battlerager in the group. This was the goblet the Dwarf used to imbibe all his alchohol from so he was bound to find out. When the Dwarf found out he got furious so he pounded the kender unconscious and started to rummage through his sack. He found his goblet and a flask of very strong acid. The Dwarf then proceeded to pour the acid down the kenders throat while the rest of the party watched and did nothing.

Kender player: "But...but then I die"
GM (Me): "Yup, pretty much"
Followed by unsympathetic nods from the rest of the players.

See, this is what I'm talking about how mechanics and decision in design can encourage dysfunctional player actions. Yes a problem player will always be a problem, but mechanics that encourage such behavior can create problems that could have been avoided with a better thought out system.

[cobaltstarfire]

See, this is what I'm talking about how mechanics and decision in design can encourage dysfunctional player actions. Yes a problem player will always be a problem, but mechanics that encourage such behavior can create problems that could have been avoided with a better thought out system.

Yeah but everyone described having the mechanics be out of the players hands, and something that is in the DM's control. If played the way that has been suggested there shouldn't be much in the way of dysfunction. Though I suppose the DM can be accused on railroading depending on what they have the Kender steal.

To take it even further, just come up with a table of various kinds of things/interactions, similar to the Sorcerers Wild Magic table in 5e. Sometimes the Kender pulls a random useful object from their bag, sometimes it's useful with consequences, often it's just whatever shiny cruft that you might find in a magpies nest (buttons, bits of tinsel, a half pound of nails, a large ball bearing that has been slightly squished).

[RazorChain]

See, this is what I'm talking about how mechanics and decision in design can encourage dysfunctional player actions. Yes a problem player will always be a problem, but mechanics that encourage such behavior can create problems that could have been avoided with a better thought out system.

This was 2e....there was no mechanic to encourage the player. He just made the most annoying kender and decided to go full klepto and rationalizing it with "That's how kenders are"

[Arbane]

Which leads me to the question of "Who came up with this race as a playable character race and why hasn't anyone swatted him with a newspaper until he rewrote it?"

Seriously, it's like someone made up a race specifically designed to hurt group cohesion in character and out.

They're from Dragonlance, the same setting that gave us Mad Scientist Gnomes and subnormal Gully Dwarves. Kender exist because it was a D&D series, the writers needed a Thief, but they didn't want a professional criminal as a good guy. So they gave us a race of pathological kleptomaniacs instead.

[ATHATH]

If you're gonna be playing in a 3.5 game, you can have some fun with the Cumbrous Will feat, from Savage Species. Its only prerequisite is Iron Will, which you can get from the Otyugh Hole (it even makes sense in the fluff!). It lets you gain a +6 to a Will Save at the price of being shaken for the rest of the encounter. Since Kender are immune to fear, you can basically run around with a +8 to Will Saves. Pick up the Pride domain, and you will pretty much never fail a Will Save. Wow, Kender really ARE incorruptible!

Also, something I found in the comments section of this site:

m_dessain said...
Oh god, did they really **** up the kender that bad? I've read the books and even PLAYED a kender, and kender DO understand notions of physical boundaries and privacy, just not very well. Sure, they'll dig through your stuff every now and then when they're bored, but they NEVER "borrow" anything of importance. For example, they'll probably fiddle with that magic ring that hasn't had Identify cast on it yet and try to figure it out, or stare at the nonmagical jewel the fighter found in the dragon's horde, but they WON'T take the Wizard's Wand of Fireball or ANYONE'S Ring of Sustenance (we actually ended up starving a kender PC because they did the latter). They KNOW those will be missed. kender are supposed to be kid like and lovable and their "borrowing" is supposed to be mildy annoying at worst, affecting only roleplaying. As written? I'd rather try to make a character in FATAL than deal with anyone who plays kender like that.
March 20, 2011 at 9:05 AM

[LibraryOgre]

Don't steal from your fellow adventurers.

The last kender in my group ended up tied upside down in the town square while people pelted him with rotten vegetables, no one in the party helped him out. He didn't get the hint so he stole THE ancestral goblet from the Dwarven Battlerager in the group. This was the goblet the Dwarf used to imbibe all his alchohol from so he was bound to find out. When the Dwarf found out he got furious so he pounded the kender unconscious and started to rummage through his sack. He found his goblet and a flask of very strong acid. The Dwarf then proceeded to pour the acid down the kenders throat while the rest of the party watched and did nothing.

Kender player: "But...but then I die"
GM (Me): "Yup, pretty much"
Followed by unsympathetic nods from the rest of the players.

And the party was OK with murder?

[Stealth Marmot]

And the party was OK with murder?

If I was in that group I would consider it an act of self defense. Doing this prevent him from forcing my character to drive a pickaxe through his OWN skull.

Anyway whose to say the party was good aligned? After all the guy had committed theft against them constantly. In reality though, the character should have instead become persona non grata and be asked to leave and have the player reroll. But sometimes, for OOC reasons, you have to DROP. THE. HAMMER.

Because some people won't understand that their character was annoying and they shouldn't play them until the character is forced to gargle hydrofluoric acid by one member while the rest give silent approval.

[Coidzor]

They're from Dragonlance, the same setting that gave us Mad Scientist Gnomes and subnormal Gully Dwarves. Kender exist because it was a D&D series, the writers needed a Thief, but they didn't want a professional criminal as a good guy. So they gave us a race of pathological kleptomaniacs instead.

It's one of those annoying and/or weird things that happens when someone lets Real World Religions dictate their writing.

And the party was OK with murder?

It's not murder, it's pest extermination.

[Komatik]

The only relevant question about kender involves how many sharp objects, napalm, nuclear bombs, acid and other implements of murder should be applied on them. "Lots" sounds good.

<3 the battlerager. Agree it is merely pest extermination.

[One Step Two]

I enjoy Kender in concept, and I have made just a few posts about my experiences with Kender characters, and agree with what was mentioned by some other posters in this thread. The important thing to remember is that the Kender is only as much of a problem to the party as the player.

Borrowing is only one part of what makes a Kender. They are loyal, and thoughtful and love the big-folk who are their friends, they are fearless and always stand up for themselves and others, even when they shouldn't. Kender have big hearts, they refer to their elders as Uncle, because they are all a big family, and when they travel with an Adventuring Party, they are family too.

As for 'Borrowing' itself, Segev has the main points covered, a Kender's kelptomania is a story tool more than an excuse to take all the things, but I like this simple mantra all the same:
Interest over value, and the unknown over the familiar.
Your party has a tonne of interesting items, and some are even magic sure, but a Kender doesn't suffer boredom well, so why look over something as boring as your party's stuff? You know what they are, and what they do, why look at it again?

And work with your GM when you think your borrowing might be story relevant. The party might be lost in a dungeon with no light, so your Kender might have borrowed a nice looking stick with a shiny tip that turns out to be a Sunrod! Things like this can make a Kender play both true to character and useful to the group.

[Bohandas]

'Handling' is not meant to be selfish or malicious,

Yes, they're supposed to place things as often as they remove them

[Koo Rehtorb]

Party friendly or not, they're just a stupid concept that instantly destroys any hint of a serious tone in a game or setting.

[Segev]

Party friendly or not, they're just a stupid concept that instantly destroys any hint of a serious tone in a game or setting.

Eh... Just the sheer fact that Dragonlance novels can be serious and even treat scenes with Tasselhoff in them as serious puts the lie to this statement.

I will agree that they can make a serious tone harder to achieve and maintain, though.