Relationship Woes And Advice, Part Two (Read First Post)

[The Great Skenardo]

Been there, done that. Well, in any case, I've tried to break up with someone, had them threaten suicide, guilt me into staying another 3 months, try again, same threat, 1 more month, finally actually stick to my convictions and break up with them....have them actually attempt it and wind up in the hospital for awhile, leaving me feeling like it's entirely my fault.

Don't feel guilty about that sort of thing. Harming yourself to make someone else feel bad is the height of selfishness. It's unforgivable, in my book.

[Serpentine]

leaving me feeling like it's entirely my fault.

It never, ever is. The most you could've done is suggest that if his happiness depended so heavily upon you, then he should have booked himself into a psych ward, and even then it's not your job to coddle him.

But as far as the idea of massages as a form of flirting....even the slightest touching can have the same effect. Placing a hand on someone's arm while talking to them, or even casually moving your hand so that it's somewhat against them. However, keeping this in mind, I'm a rather touchy person in the majority of my relationships, friendships, boyfriends, flirtations in general. I touch and hug and pet people, just part of my personality I think. But really, I'm a very flirtatious person.

Ah, which brings me to...

Lesson 3: Take any opportunity to touch or get close to them. Okay, don't go around squeezing their buttocks (unless that's the sort of friendship group you have...), but try to sit next to them when you can, share arm-rests, "accidently" touch their toes or fingers with yours... Um... oh, I don't know. Use your imagination. My now housemate and I once ambushed my now boyfriend when walking back from town, each of us claiming an arm. You might not want to be so bold, but you get the idea.
(of course, all this ties in to Lessons 1 and 2)

[Alarra]

Lesson 3: Take any opportunity to touch or get close to them. Okay, don't go around squeezing their buttocks (unless that's the sort of friendship group you have...), but try to sit next to them when you can, share arm-rests, "accidently" touch their toes or fingers with yours... Um... oh, I don't know. Use your imagination. My now housemate and I once ambushed my now boyfriend when walking back from town, each of us claiming an arm. You might not want to be so bold, but you get the idea.
(of course, all this ties in to Lessons 1 and 2)

Yes. And even if you aren't touching them, just standing or sitting near them whenever they are a member of the crowd you are with is a good indication of interest.

[The Great Skenardo]

Yep. My lady friend ended up taking the initiative by grabbing my hand as we were walking in a salt mine.

[Serpentine]

Yes. And even if you aren't touching them, just standing or sitting near them whenever they are a member of the crowd you are with is a good indication of interest.

Oi, you! Who's the Professor of Practical Flirtation around here?! =.=
...well, alright then, I've heard of your amorous conquests You can be Assisting Professor, I guess.

A salt mine... How romantic.

[SDF]

Yes. And even if you aren't touching them, just standing or sitting near them whenever they are a member of the crowd you are with is a good indication of interest.

Maybe, but I don't see why so many people think this circumspect behavior is a good indication of anything. If a person likes me and is just near me all the time I'm not going to get the hint... at all.

[Serpentine]

That's just part of the fun, and why there's more than one lesson in my curriculum.

[Ego Slayer]

Lesson 2: Offer/request massages, and/or/including hands or feet when, for example, sitting around or watching a movie (I used to do this when watching horror movies. Helped to distract me). This is helped by actually having some education in massage.

Massages = win. Receiving is better than giving. Am I right, or am I right? (I'm kidding, both are good)

You've got some education in it, eh? Coolness.

[Hell Puppi]

Ick I've got a wonderful hereditary problem where the muscles in my shoulders get tight. A few years ago i went to the doctor and the problem was so bad it was starting to pull my spine out alignment (who knew?).
So now I bug my male friends and my boyfriends for massages. Sooooo much better.
Back/shoulder massages...well I'd end it but it's kinda dirty.

[Zeb The Troll]

Maybe, but I don't see why so many people think this circumspect behavior is a good indication of anything. If a girl likes me and is just near me all the time I'm not going to get the hint... at all.

I'm usually guilty of needing a clue bat but I'm getting better. It started when I was once told by a woman friend of mine that many of our mutual acquaintances had tried demonstrating an interest and I was oblivious. So I turned most of my "naah, couldn't be" observances into "hey, might be" and if I was also interested would try to return the favor. Worst case is misinterpreted gestures since this kind of stuff, even if unintentional, would at least indicate that they aren't repulsed by you, eh?

It worked with Alarra. I noticed occasional furtive glances. I noticed her being near me more often than all the other very fun and engaging people. (The bold print 'Dude, I think she's interested' was the couch incident at The Igloo/Rabbit Hole/Bunguin's Place*.) Sure, it could've been just shyness or the fact that I was doing the same thing. But when I asked my thought process was "hey, she doesn't hate you, right? even if she says 'sorry, no' she'll at least be kind about it."

The point of this? Maybe you're missing more flirting than you realize. Oh, and a dozen polite refusals is worth it for one enthusiastic 'yes'.

*What are they calling it these days?

[SDF]

The point of this? Maybe you're missing more flirting than you realize.

Maybe, even so I like initiative. If I like someone I can usually tell them. If they like me and don't say anything their loss I suppose.

@V: And I probably wouldn't end up dating them. It isn't that I wouldn't it is a problem of communication.

[Dragonrider]

Some people (yours truly included) are WAY too shy and/or low-confidence to do this.

[Logic]

Some people (yours truly included) are WAY too shy and/or low-confidence to do this.

I am one of the extremely shy types as well, and most females are not as agressive with me as I would like.

All but one of my girlfriends were way more outgoing than I was, and I only initiated it with the most shy of them. But then again, I thought she needed a clue bat to get my flirting, truth be told, she got it even before I had figured it out, she was waiting for an actual "Hey, I like you" message.

[Hell Puppi]

Shy people need a clear message...otherwise we just kind of guess as to "maybe??".

[Alarra]

(The bold print 'Dude, I think she's interested' was the couch incident at The Igloo/Rabbit Hole/Bunguin's Place*.)

Wait.....what was the couch incident?

[Zeb The Troll]

Wait.....what was the couch incident?

Let me set the scene...

We're at PenguinSushi and BardicBunny's place on the last day. We have much good cookout food and are congregating in the living room. I take a seat on a fairly uncomfortable footstool thing at the end of the coffee table. You and Gitman00 were sitting on the couch.

Zeb: Damn, Sushi, this thing isn't very comfortable.
Sushi: Well, why are you sitting on it then, goober?
Zeb: I didn't feel like standing any-
Alarra: (presses up against the arm of the couch to make room) There's plenty of room here, Zeb! (pats the cushion next to her)

[Dragonrider]

Everyone - one, two, three:

AWWW!

[Alarra]

Oh right, that 'couch incident'.
I wouldn't say I 'pressed against the arm to make room'....there really was plenty of room next to me. and I believe my actual words were..."You could sit here you know.."

[Xykon_Fan]

Awww....darn...I missed the count...

To make up for it! Double awww!

[Zeb The Troll]

Oh right, that 'couch incident'.
I wouldn't say I 'pressed against the arm to make room'....there really was plenty of room next to me. and I believe my actual words were..."You could sit here you know.."

Whatever. You remember it your way and I'll remember it mine.

[Alarra]

Ah but see, mine's right.

[Logic]

Ah but see, mine's right.

Zeb, you have already lost. Just aknowledge this, and things will be easier until she declares a win at a later date.

[Zeb The Troll]

Zeb, you have already lost. Just aknowledge this, and things will be easier until she declares a win at a later date.

Au contraire, mon frer. I've won. It doesn't matter whose recollection is the more accurate. What matters is that I perceived a reciprocated attraction, which I acted on and that action received a positive response. To that end, so has she, whether her action was intentional or not, since we're now together and are very happy about it.

[mudbunny]

To all you guys out there who worry that you don't get flirting, and can't talk to girls/women. Have faith, it will come to you in time. Flirting is not meant to be serious. It is all for fun. Have fun with it, and pay attention to the responses to your phrases. It takes practice, but it does all work out.

Take me for example. More than once, I have had female friends remark to me that I was "utterly clueless" and "how could you not notice that she was flirting with you". Most of it stemmed from a belief that I still partially hold today that I am simply not that attractive. However, things change.

Spoiler

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This is inside my wife's tummy. We don't know whether it is a boy or a girl, it kept spinning and moving too much, but it certainly is active.

S/he is supposed to make an appearance near the end of october sometime.

[Jibar]

I'm this close to crying right now...
Congratulations to ye, congratulations to ye, you're having a babeeeeeee, congratulations to ye.


I want a baby

[Serpentine]

...
Too... many jokes... Clogging brain... causing... Shatner-like speech... patterns.

Mudbunny, I count... 5 excellent points in your post. Bravo.

[mudbunny]

I mentioned this in the previous thread, but it was shortly before it got modded so I will repost it here.

I was shy in high school. I was the nerd in high school. I was the geek in high school. I was teased, until people needed help with homework, then I was a temporary friend.

My first date, ever was at my high school prom (17 years old was I, no kiss was there).
My second date was 6 years later, in my first year of grad school. We went out for about 4 years, before she decided that she needed some time to find out who she was. (Fair enough)

While I was recovering from the devastation (I had just dropped $1.5k on a trip to see her over christmas), I learned a couple of things about meeting women.

Women notice if you are desperately looking for a relationship. Most women will avoid you in this situation. While soap operas show women going out with really needy guys and it working, real life isn't a soap opera.

The next stage I got to, after you are done being desperate, is the "I don't care if I don't have a girlfriend." While this is slightly more attractive to women, it still tends to turn a number of them off. Women want someone who will want them.

The ideal stage to get to is "I am happy with myself, whether I have a girlfriend or not." Confidence in yourself, and a knowledge of who you really are, will get women interested in you more than most other techniques combined in my opinion.

Another important point. Go out and do things. Ultimate Frisbee, pick-up soccer, ball-room dancing, latin dancing (you have no idea how much being able to dance a foxtrot/salsa/mambo/waltz/etc helps).

Meet people. Women will not come knocking on your door to ask you out. They don't know that you are there. You say you are uncomfortable doing that sort of thing. Oh well.

Deal with it!! It is very close to a binary solution set:

If you go out, you meet people.
If you don't go out, you don't meet people.

Your friends will help, but you need to take steps yourself as well.

[Holy_Knight]

Oddly, I get this behavior almost exclusively from my married female friends. I really don't think they're coming on to me! But, y'know, who am I to say for sure...

Hmm, well, I guess them being married could change things, since they might also do that kind of hug if they view you in a brotherly way. But I still maintain that if a single girl gives that kind of hug to a single guy, it seems like obvious flirting.

For my part, there's no way the breasts aren't going to get in the way of a hug. They're not detachable.

True, but some girls are very conscious about this, and so either give sort of side hugs, or hugs where she sort of leans forward so you're touching near the shoulders, but your chests have space between them.

Pick-pocketing while hugging is definitely flirting in my book. I mean, come on, you're touching their butt! At least every time I've done this I've certainly been flirting.

Actually, I keep everything in my front pockets rather than my back ones... so yeah, that would come across as pretty flirtatious to me.

Okay, guys, so I think I mentioned that my dad wrote me a song after my mom told him about my problems...and played it for me...well, last night he wrote me an email telling me to look in a certain folder on the desktop. Turns out he recorded an mp3 of the song. I just about started crying, it was so sweet of him.

Spoiler

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I know you're lookin' around
And things don't look all that good to you
But don't go back underground
You've still got plenty of good to do

You know in all the wide world
There ain't no place like home
And people out there are scared
They're gonna end up alone

I know you set your sights high
You've been fillin' your heart with love
You're doin' all the right things
Sometimes it's just not enough

You've created a friendship
That can last your whole life
Though it don't seem like it now
It's worth this moment of strife

Though all the signs of the world
May say you're on the wrong track
Don't think of going back

Keep the word in your heart
Keep your feet on the road
Keep your eyes on the horizon
You can carry this load

Putting each brick in its place
One day you'll have a whole wall
Be confident there's no waste
Should even some of them fall

The ediface that you build
Will be a beauty to see
Though it will come at a cost
You know that nothin' is free

Yeah, you may lose what you want
Yeah, you may lose what you want
Though you may lose what you want
You'll surely find what you need
You'll find what you need

I know you're lookin' around
And things don't look all that good to you....

I guess it's kind of weird...I mean, my parents and I have always gotten along really well, but it's really cool to suddenly realize how much they care and that they really are there for me.

It's not like when you're young, and you think that your mom and dad can solve any problem with a snap of their fingers...but they can make your life a lot easier. This is kind of how my dad always communicates, through songs...when I was younger he and I used to fight a lot, and we got through it because he wrote me a song that made me go ...oh. Anyway, the advice he gave makes me feel a lot better.

That's really cool, Dragonrider. It sounds like you have a great relationship with your parents.

Yep. My lady friend ended up taking the initiative by grabbing my hand as we were walking in a salt mine.

Wait--you were really in a salt mine?

I'm usually guilty of needing a clue bat but I'm getting better. It started when I was once told by a woman friend of mine that many of our mutual acquaintances had tried demonstrating an interest and I was oblivious.

Heh, one time I was semi-bemoaning the fact that I was single, and my friend starts telling me how I've got plenty of prospects: "I mean, I've seen lots of girls giving you 'the look'." So of course, I was like: "What?! why didn't you tell me?" Ah well.

Meet people. Women will not come knocking on your door to ask you out. They don't know that you are there. You say you are uncomfortable doing that sort of thing. Oh well.

Deal with it!! It is very close to a binary solution set:

If you go out, you meet people.
If you don't go out, you don't meet people.

Your friends will help, but you need to take steps yourself as well.

I don't know, what about that commercial where the guy is telling his friend he feels lonely, and the girl falls into his outstrectched arms? That could probably totally happen all the time in real life.

Anyway, congratulations on the new addition to your family, mudbunny.

[Serpentine]

Heh, one time I was semi-bemoaning the fact that I was single, and my friend starts telling me how I've got plenty of prospects: "I mean, I've seen lots of girls giving you 'the look'." So of course, I was like: "What?! why didn't you tell me?" Ah well.

Me too. Dammit people, if someone's paying attention to me, I want to know! Don't think it happens very often though, anyway.

[Rykaj]

Women notice if you are desperately looking for a relationship. Most women will avoid you in this situation. While soap operas show women going out with really needy guys and it working, real life isn't a soap opera.

This is very true. Everytime I was around looking for a girl I wasn't getting anywhere. But when it did happen, there were loads of opportunities directly after it. Example: After I first kissed my current girlfriend, I got four other pretty direct opportunities in that same week (I don't know why, my hair probably looked GREAT that week). And it has happened at other times as well. Good thing I didn't fall for those, cause my girlfriend is totally awesome. ("ewww, you slimeball!")

I've seen it happen to friends of mine as well. So, since this seem to happen so often, I was wondering, do women actually have a radar to know when a guy is nearly committing himself to someone else? And if so, what makes that guy suddenly so hot?