Relationship Woes And Advice, Part Two (Read First Post)

[Logic]

Every woman I have had a "more that friends" relationship was a friend first. There have been several women that I would have like to be more than friends, but they did not desire it, so I did not pursue that avenue. I do not think that a "friends only bin" exists, because the entire basis of not being in a relationship with someone under that instance cannot be boiled down so simply.

Someone will make some excuse or another for not dating you, and you may think it is the fault of being in the friends bin, but truth be told, they don't feel that way for you, despite the fact that you have so many qualities that they are looking for in a mate. Their head wants one thing, and you may fit that requrement to a T, but the heart wants what the heart wants, and it cannot easily be told to want something it didn't want before.

[mdsoze]

Someone will make some excuse or another for not dating you, and you may think it is the fault of being in the friends bin, but truth be told, they don't feel that way for you, despite the fact that you have so many qualities that they are looking for in a mate. Their head wants one thing, and you may fit that requrement to a T, but the heart wants what the heart wants, and it cannot easily be told to want something it didn't want before.

Logic,

I label that exact situation you describe as being "the friends bin". So I'm not sure why you deny its existence, and then state that it occurs.

[Logic]

Logic,

I label that exact situation you describe as being "the friends bin". So I'm not sure why you deny its existence, and then state that it occurs.

Then what you label the friends bin is not a friends bin. A friends bin is the theory that someone will not date you because you are exclusively friends, and cannot be anything more because you are friends. Just because a friend decides not to date you does not make you "in the friends bin."

[mdsoze]

If that's the definition of friends bin, the theory is overly simplistic, and quickly proven false by all the examples of people who have been friends and then subsequently found love.

I don't know any advocate of friends bin who would say it's always the case, but rather that certain guys get into certain situations where they are in love with a woman, who for whatever reason despite being friends with them and being attracted to the qualities they have and saying things like, "I want a guy just like you, but not you," has a mental block against dating that guy, no matter what he does. And that situation happens frequently enough to warrant a shorthand in guy lingo.

And in my opinion, when a guy finds himself in that situation, the best thing he can do is run as fast as possible in the other direction.

[Logic]

If that's the definition of friends bin, the theory is overly simplistic, and quickly proven false by all the examples of people who have been friends and then subsequently found love.

I don't know any advocate of friends bin who would say it's always the case, but rather that certain guys get into certain situations where they are in love with a woman, who for whatever reason despite being friends with them and being attracted to the qualities they have and saying things like, "I want a guy just like you, but not you," has a mental block against dating that guy, no matter what he does. And that situation happens frequently enough to warrant a shorthand in guy lingo.

And in my opinion, when a guy finds himself in that situation, the best thing he can do is run as fast as possible in the other direction.

A woman that states that can do little more to insult a man. I agree, a man should run away, post haste.

[Midnight Son]

A woman that states that can do little more to insult a man. I agree, a man should run away, post haste.

I disagree.

If you will notice, I was the one who put that example in here. The woman in question is one of the best friends I've ever had. Just because she was unable to get past the idea of me as any more than a friend does not mean that she is a bad friend.

[Syka]

One of the main reasons I won't date my male friends is because generally I know them too well. Both guys I've dated I've known about 1-4 months before dating, became friends, and then started dating. Throughout the relationship I got to know them better. Now, if I'd been friends for them a good deal longer, I'd probably not have dated them. But because of the relationship status I would evaluate new information and decide whether or not I was willing to deal with it. As a rule, I would because the relationship was more important.

However, with my platonic guy friends, it seems that whenever they get around to expressing interest in me I've learned stuff about them that made me think I wouldn't want to date them. For instance, one good male friend who I would otherwise have consider dating I have heard detailed renditions of a one night stand. A second, with whom there was mutual interest confirmed, does drugs (which for me is a huge no).

Buttttt...I also do think about it if a male friend expresses interest. It's not an automatic no, it just depends on wether or not I'm able to see you as more than a friend.


Also...I don't date friends of ex's. Even if I liked the guy, I'd probably avoid it. That is just a messy situation I would much rather avoid.



No, ZRS, you are not weird. Both the guys I've dated have ended up becoming my best friends (pre-dating they were just friends, on par with my other guy friends...I HAVE to know the person to some degree before I'll date them). When we broke up I was more depressed about losing my best friends than the romantic interests. Especially in this last one. The death of a friendship that I thought would last beyond the romantic part has hit me harder than I'd like to admit. Thankfully, I also had another best friend this time that helped a lot.

Cheers,
Syka

[Thrawn183]

One of the main reasons I won't date my male friends is because generally I know them too well. Both guys I've dated I've known about 1-4 months before dating, became friends, and then started dating. Throughout the relationship I got to know them better. Now, if I'd been friends for them a good deal longer, I'd probably not have dated them. But because of the relationship status I would evaluate new information and decide whether or not I was willing to deal with it. As a rule, I would because the relationship was more important.

Now, I could be completely off base here, but this sounds exactly like someone being attracted to people that aren't the kind of people they like. (ie. you like your friends, but you aren't interested/ the people you are attracted to aren't the people you actually like or want to spend time with).

Perhaps the friend bin isn't so much people being unattracted to someone because they are their friend, so much as the reasons they are friends preclude them from being attracted to them.

Now I'd like to take a little quote from BASH.org:

Spoiler

Show

#414593 +(9916)- [X]
DragonflyBlade21: A woman has a close male friend. This means that he is probably interested in her, which is why he hangs around so much. She sees him strictly as a friend. This always starts out with, you're a great guy, but I don't like you in that way. This is roughly the equivalent for the guy of going to a job interview and the company saying, You have a great resume, you have all the qualifications we are looking for, but we're not going to hire you. We will, however, use your resume as the basis for comparison for all other applicants. But, we're going to hire somebody who is far less qualified and is probably an alcoholic. And if he doesn't work out, we'll hire somebody else, but still not you. In fact, we will never hire you. But we will call you from time to time to complain about the person that we hired.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with the second sentence, but I found it really funny.

[ZombieRockStar]

In retrospect, I'm not exactly sure I said what I wanted to say, but now I'm unsure how to word what I was trying to communicate properly. This coming from a writer...

What I was trying to say is that...a relationship, romantic or otherwise, is unique to the two people involved. It's not classifiable, as with the metaphor I was using earlier. It isn't a case of mistaking a shirt for a sock because it isn't a freaking piece of clothing in the first place. Who knows what it is? And what I'm seeing from that stupid "friend bin" idea is the philosophy that all female-male friendships have the same dynamics regardless of the two people involved.

...or maybe that still doesn't really convey what I mean. But I'm realizing that this is more a thread for relationship woes and advice, not for pseudo-theoretics from a guy who has/needs none. So I'll just slip out quietly.

[Syka]

No...The majority of my good male friends I'm not attracted to, nor have I ever been. There are a few I used to crush on, but don't any more. There are a few I could potentially date, but I'm not entirely sure "it" is there, you know?

I am not one of these women who says "I want a guy like you, but not you." Neither of the guys I've dated are alike other than over lapping interests. Personality wise they are different, which is why Jerkface's jerky behavior (which was similar to how my ex acted) shocked me so much. I DO try to avoid the guys who I know would be self-destructive to me. I did not make the same mistakes with this relationship that I made with my first one.

And both Jerkface and Ex WERE people I wanted to spend time with. I did get to know them before dating them, and they are people I wish I had been able to remain friends with- even without the "relationship". What I meant was there are things you are willing to overlook in relationships because you have fallen for the person. I know I'm not describing this right and I can't remember the example I used to use.

Kind of like...If you are in an established relationship and you find out the person...I dunno, always does something a particular way. Normally, that particular way would bug you, but because you are in a relationship already, you will overlook it. However, if you found this out on the first date the costs are more than the gains.

Did that make sense?

To elaborate, none of the stuff I found out about either of the guys was particularly earthshattering (I mean, before the breakups obviously...afterward is different). Just the type of thing that may have bugged me, but I was willing to overlook because of how the relationship had been to that point.

[FdL]

Welllllll...First, I'm not familiar with the "friend bin" phrase or its use, but I get the idea...Also I have a terrible headache and neck pain so my brain is at 50% of what it usually is, so I'll give this reply my best. Besides, I'm naturally stupid, it seems.

"Friend bin", is it as in being tagged as a friend and feeling you can never have a relationship with her because she won't see you as anything else?

I've tried several times to break that invisible but impassable energy barrier that is friend --> date. Never worked. Fault? Mine, duh. I have a kinda pragmatic/empirical approach to life, where I understand things if I see them happen. So as this has never happened to me, and being that I'm sadly restricted to being myself (that's a problem on its own, trust me), I tend to think negatively about it.

For one, it never stopped me from trying, because I probably I lack the moral height to restrain myself in the name of Friendship. Anyway, the problem is not that I'm being friends with her, it's that I don't stand a chance with any woman, so statistically it makes sense :p

Then, about confidence? Sure, it's everything. I don't have it, I know I'm never going to get a girl for the rest of my life, and that the few times when it happened it was all by accident or were clearly insane people. Semi-fact :(

Trust me, I'm working on it, but it's hard and I don't know where to start. Probably should get a mindwipe or maybe reincarnation. I'm very confused by the concept that to be happy I have to change who I am :(

So to put an example, in my case with MR it's a "not gonna happen". Yesterday I even asked her if I'm ever going to get a chance to see her IRL to chat and hang out, something like what we do in MSN. She gives me blunt "sorry but no"s. So I get it.

I honestly don't think I can change that. I don't have that power, and to be honest I was left thinking even if I want to keep talking to her on MSN. A relation that is restricted to chatting online doesn't seem like a viable option with someone who a) Lives in my town, not too far b) I've already physically met (once, pathetic) and I like . And mainly c) I don't want anything "virtual" or "abstract" in the field of relationships with women. I'm making efforts to move my relationships to real life, and it's already difficult for me...

I have a mess in my head, and I'm realizing I might be a very selfish, horrible person, because I tend to think stuff like I shouldn't waste time chatting with her if she doesn't want to have any sort of tangible, real-world relationship with me, not giving me the chance to see her, much less an opportunity to know me in a "date" context. I know what I want from her, and I'm not going to get it.

Something similar happened with, we'll call her V. We started purely in the IM dimension, but I somehow suceeded in bringing ourselves to meet IRL and actually date for a while. Result? After some time trying to get close to her (in a very respectful manner, and doing my best really, though remember that I'm stupid), and talking to her about my feelings for her (yes, stupid remember?) the whole thing broke.

Today: I'm just another contact in her long list, we're not friends, whatever vibe we had has left her completely: she sometimes pops and says hi but she usually doesn't even bother to follow a conversation, takes forever to answer at best. This is from someone who actually spent the best part of the day chatting with me and expressing genuine affection and interest. I killed it, I know it. Also, she admitted she was a bit in a "confused" state before we met.

I'm thinking of deleting her from my contacts list. Am I such a horrible person? :( There's nothing left for me in knowing her, she's not going o be my friend, she doesn't think we should date or even meet again IRL, she won't even talk to me without faking interest (that even then vanishes pretty soon). Plus it annoys me or dunno, kinda makes me jealous or gives me a weird feeling when I read the things she writes in her username, usually aimed at other people. I can't stand that, it's really stupid.

I'm really simple minded. I think I'm not capable of having a relationship in more than a way with a given single person :S I'm not able to go from friend to dating or back, or anything like that :( I just react emotionally to a person in a given way, it seems I can't help it :S


...I was going to wrap up this post summarizing it with some kind of moral or witty remark. But I think it will be a long time before I can understand anything related to women, dating, friendship or just life.

[ForzaFiori]

I'm gonna use this place to rant for a minute.

please excuse my whiny ass.

[rant/whine]
Has anyone ever been in love? like the kind where you'd do anything for a person, no matter what it was? where you don't know what you'd do if they weren't in your life? And your all happy while your dating said person, but then you break up. This happened to me...at the start of summer. My ex and I had decided a while ago (we had been dating for several months) that we would stay good friends even if we broke up. However...anytime i see her, or talk to her, or even hear something about her...I feel sick. like i just feel terrible. I don't wanna break my promise to stay friends, but its tearing me apart. I can't even find the words to talk to her about it. I've tried to find someone else to like or date, but, while i can find plenty of attractive people, i can't see myself dating any of them. I would do anything to be able to get over her, but nothing helps. It's killing me and I can't stop it.
[/rant/whine]

on another note, anyone know why it seems so much easier to spill your guts online to people you don't know rather than to trusted friends? I've been trying to talk to my good friends about that ^, but just can't, but typing that out was easy.

[Lemur]

I suspect the "friends bin" is primarily an illusion created through misenterpreted signals. Rejecting someone is a touchy issue, so it's common to soften the message by making it less direct. Also, there can be some difficulty finding a "reason" as to why you wouldn't want to date someone. If feelings followed logic or reasons to the letter, they wouldn't really be feelings, yet if someone asks "why not?" what are you supposed to tell them?

"Being just friends" is convenient in a sense, since it's not a complete rejection, and it provides a reason. It's problematic though, since it can be interpreted as saying that friendship and romance are mutually exclusive, which isn't necessarily true, as ZRS and some others have pointed out.

Also, since it's not a direct message, you might not take the hint. Personal feelings can get in the way, and the message might very well be understood differently by the given parties. The speaker might mean "I don't want to be in a relationship with you, but I don't want to hurt your feelings," but the receiver understands "I'd have a chance if it weren't for the fact we were already friends." To outside observers, the rejection is probably fairly apparent. But on the outside, the world looks like a peaceful mixture of blue, green and white. On the inside, it's a burning torrent of stone, battering and consuming everything within.

The only one who has a different view is the receiver, but it's not completely fair to say that this view is "wrong". It makes perfect sense to the one individual, after all. Since a certain strength of feeling is generally required to approach someone in the first place, it's understandable that one's feelings would be strong enough to influence one's perceptions in this regard. In such a state, a rejection that isn't straightforward or clear probably won't get the message across. The receiver isn't willing to accept complete rejection, but the sender also isn't willing to convey it completely.

In any case, I imagine that the process works something like this, which creates an illusion of a "friends bin" in people's minds. Keep in mind I don't actually understand what I'm talking about, this sort of stuff just sort of comes to mind. Also, let the records show that I think that "I want someone like you, but not you" is a pretty jerkface thing to intentionally tell a person. Back to lurking. Stealth mode activate!

[Syka]

I think you need to take a break. Not not be friends, just ask for a little bit of time to get your bearings and recover. There is no shame in that. I think with both my relationships if we had made an agreement to not have contact for a month (or few), it may have worked as friends. But things were said, feelings were hurt, etc. One is maybe not irrecoverable (though, probably), and the other...Don't feel like going into.

But with both of my exes, for the a looong time whenever I would see them come online I'd feel my gut twist and squirm. With my first one, I would even shake some. It's finally abated with both.

But it took MONTHS without contact (still none) in the first case and I still have him removed from my buddy list. The other one has been easier, but it also wasn't as involved.

My advice is to seperate yourselves for 1-4 months, then try again.

Cheers,
Syka

[Midnight Son]

mf11, I have been in that situation several times in my life(once quite recently in fact). Being so in love with someone that you can't think of your life without them is great, and it's a tragedy when it all falls apart. I would agree with Syka here. There is no way you can possibly be friends with someone when your feelings of love are still so very strong. You need to take some time away from her for your own sanity. Do your very best to avoid being around her till your feelings on the matter have calmed down a bit. I will tell you that in my case, I have no problems now with any of them except the first and the most recent. In the case of the first, what she did was so over the top unforgivable that I would walk out if I ever found myself in the same room as her. The most recent is still too recent and my feelings are still strong for her, but I could see us being friends when these feelings finally fade.

To sum up, tell her that you feel too strongly for her to be friends right now, but that you will be happy to rekindle a friendship once you can get past your heart.

[Alarra]

I have at times dated people with whom I was very good friends prior. I have also dated people that I barely knew prior to dating and become friends with them after. The point of this not so much an anecdote is....it's important that whomever you date, be they friends previously, or a purely romantic interest, that they have the potential to be your friend. That you have interests in common and topics to talk about with one another and that you have fun together. If this occurs as a boyfriend/girlfriend, great, if it occurs as a friend, well at least you have that, and that's important.

FdL....I'm sorry, while I appreciate that you seem to know yourself and your expectations and your wants and needs.....I simply can't abide with this pessimisstic attitude of yours. Believe me when I say that there is someone and happiness just around the corner for everyone. By assuming that you are incapable of getting a date, that things are not going to happen, that you're never going to move beyond the stage which you currently are with a person.....well.....that's just self-defeating. Now, I know that I am taking an unpopular view here, that there are few people who trust that no matter what, life will work out exactly as it ought....that an eternal sense of optimism is a hard thing to present, harder to maintain, and nigh impossible to believe.

However....I am of the opinion that everyone is capable of the utmost happiness and of experiencing occurances which will imply that things are going more perfectly than what one might expect were they not focusing so intensely on creating perfection. I am not claiming that my life is perfect, or that anyone's is. I am merely inviting people to look beyond their current woes to realize that everything is 'perfect' if viewed through the right light. Call me unrealistic if you will.

And so to those of you who feel that you're incapable of a successful relationship or happiness.....try again, and try and try some more. Because someday, somehow, you will realize that everything is working out exactly like you intended and life is as perfect as you could have imagined. Try and trust, okay? It merely takes time. Trust yourself, trust others. Take a chance, but realize that life doesn't end in high school and sometimes that perfect relationship takes years to develop.

And please, realize that the most important part of establishing a relationship, of continuing one in an equitable and reciprocal way, involves learning, knowing, caring, and loving of oneself. Life, love, anything you desire is just around the corner, the trick falls in ensuring that you are prepared to recieve it.

(please forgive me my over sentimental drivel, i get this way at times. That doesn't mean that anything I am saying in this post is untrue, just not something that I would necessarily broadcast ordinarily.)

[Holy_Knight]

One of the main reasons I won't date my male friends is because generally I know them too well. Both guys I've dated I've known about 1-4 months before dating, became friends, and then started dating. Throughout the relationship I got to know them better. Now, if I'd been friends for them a good deal longer, I'd probably not have dated them. But because of the relationship status I would evaluate new information and decide whether or not I was willing to deal with it. As a rule, I would because the relationship was more important.

However, with my platonic guy friends, it seems that whenever they get around to expressing interest in me I've learned stuff about them that made me think I wouldn't want to date them. For instance, one good male friend who I would otherwise have consider dating I have heard detailed renditions of a one night stand. A second, with whom there was mutual interest confirmed, does drugs (which for me is a huge no).

Hmm... but if you do date someone, won't you invariably get to know them better, thus leading to the point where you know them "too well"? I guess what I'm saying is, wouldn't another way of expressing this be to say:

"I can only date guys if I do it before I have a chance to realize all the bad qualities they have?"

Which is kind of depressing. Surely it's at least theoretically possible that you could get to know a guy well without your perception of him becoming horribly tarnished, right?

Also...I don't date friends of ex's. Even if I liked the guy, I'd probably avoid it. That is just a messy situation I would much rather avoid.

Agreed, and I'd add the flip side: Not dating exes of friends. Even if the friend says it's okay with them--as a general rule, that's a bad thing to do.

Welllllll...First, I'm not familiar with the "friend bin" phrase or its use, but I get the idea...

"Friend bin", is it as in being tagged as a friend and feeling you can never have a relationship with her because she won't see you as anything else?

I've always heard it as friend zone, but yeah, that's the basic idea.

I'm sadly restricted to being myself (that's a problem on its own, trust me), I tend to think negatively about it.

Then, about confidence? Sure, it's everything. I don't have it, I know I'm never going to get a girl for the rest of my life, and that the few times when it happened it was all by accident or were clearly insane people. Semi-fact :(

Trust me, I'm working on it, but it's hard and I don't know where to start. Probably should get a mindwipe or maybe reincarnation. I'm very confused by the concept that to be happy I have to change who I am :(

The thing to remember here is that there's two kinds of "changing yourself":

1) Acting phony to get others to like you; pretending to enjoy things you dislike and vice versa. This is the bad way. Not only will it NOT make you happy, it will exhaust you and commit you to a life of deceit.

2) Committing to self-improvement so you become a better person. This is the good way. You can be yourself and maintain your identity and interests, but work on developing positive character traits like courage, justice, honesty, self-control, friendliness and compassion. This will both make you happier, as well as help you be more successful in your endeavors.

You're right to worry that being happy requires changing yourself, if you think of that in terms of #1. When you think of it in terms of #2, however, you'll see that you can take charge of the one thing in life over which you have control--yourself.

I honestly don't think I can change that. I don't have that power, and to be honest I was left thinking even if I want to keep talking to her on MSN. A relation that is restricted to chatting online doesn't seem like a viable option with someone who a) Lives in my town, not too far b) I've already physically met (once, pathetic) and I like . And mainly c) I don't want anything "virtual" or "abstract" in the field of relationships with women. I'm making efforts to move my relationships to real life, and it's already difficult for me...

I have a mess in my head, and I'm realizing I might be a very selfish, horrible person, because I tend to think stuff like I shouldn't waste time chatting with her if she doesn't want to have any sort of tangible, real-world relationship with me, not giving me the chance to see her, much less an opportunity to know me in a "date" context. I know what I want from her, and I'm not going to get it.

I don't think this makes you selfish or horrible at all. If the possibility for real-life interaction with someone is there, but one person is unwilling, that's not friendship. At worst, I think this shows that you recognize that fact, regrettable though the situation may be.

...I was going to wrap up this post summarizing it with some kind of moral or witty remark. But I think it will be a long time before I can understand anything related to women, dating, friendship or just life.

You may be right about that. Still, don't forget that lots of people have similar issues and confusions, and many that don't once did. Hopefully that helps a little bit.

Has anyone ever been in love? like the kind where you'd do anything for a person, no matter what it was? where you don't know what you'd do if they weren't in your life? And your all happy while your dating said person, but then you break up. This happened to me...at the start of summer. My ex and I had decided a while ago (we had been dating for several months) that we would stay good friends even if we broke up. However...anytime i see her, or talk to her, or even hear something about her...I feel sick. like i just feel terrible. I don't wanna break my promise to stay friends, but its tearing me apart. I can't even find the words to talk to her about it. I've tried to find someone else to like or date, but, while i can find plenty of attractive people, i can't see myself dating any of them. I would do anything to be able to get over her, but nothing helps. It's killing me and I can't stop it.
[/rant/whine]

Honestly, that's normal, and what would be weird would be if it weren't hard for you to talk to her now. More on this below.

I think you need to take a break. Not not be friends, just ask for a little bit of time to get your bearings and recover. There is no shame in that. I think with both my relationships if we had made an agreement to not have contact for a month (or few), it may have worked as friends. But things were said, feelings were hurt, etc. One is maybe not irrecoverable (though, probably), and the other...Don't feel like going into.

But with both of my exes, for the a looong time whenever I would see them come online I'd feel my gut twist and squirm. With my first one, I would even shake some. It's finally abated with both.

But it took MONTHS without contact (still none) in the first case and I still have him removed from my buddy list. The other one has been easier, but it also wasn't as involved.

My advice is to seperate yourselves for 1-4 months, then try again.

Cheers,
Syka

mf11, I have been in that situation several times in my life(once quite recently in fact). Being so in love with someone that you can't think of your life without them is great, and it's a tragedy when it all falls apart. I would agree with Syka here. There is no way you can possibly be friends with someone when your feelings of love are still so very strong. You need to take some time away from her for your own sanity. Do your very best to avoid being around her till your feelings on the matter have calmed down a bit. I will tell you that in my case, I have no problems now with any of them except the first and the most recent. In the case of the first, what she did was so over the top unforgivable that I would walk out if I ever found myself in the same room as her. The most recent is still too recent and my feelings are still strong for her, but I could see us being friends when these feelings finally fade.

To sum up, tell her that you feel too strongly for her to be friends right now, but that you will be happy to rekindle a friendship once you can get past your heart.

I think Syka and Midnight Son are spot on, here. Keep in mind also, there's nothing wrong with mourning the loss of your relationship with the girl in question. When we experience emotional pain like that, we need time to process and recover. If she really does care about being friends, she'll understand that.

I suspect the "friends bin" is primarily an illusion created through misenterpreted signals. Rejecting someone is a touchy issue, so it's common to soften the message by making it less direct. Also, there can be some difficulty finding a "reason" as to why you wouldn't want to date someone. If feelings followed logic or reasons to the letter, they wouldn't really be feelings, yet if someone asks "why not?" what are you supposed to tell them?

"Being just friends" is convenient in a sense, since it's not a complete rejection, and it provides a reason. It's problematic though, since it can be interpreted as saying that friendship and romance are mutually exclusive, which isn't necessarily true, as ZRS and some others have pointed out.

The thing is... it doesn't really provide a reason. More accurately, it covers up the real reason. It's something that people say when what they really mean is something like "There's no chemistry between us" or "I don't feel romantic/sexual attraction toward you." Because as you've mentioned, romance and friendship aren't mutually exclusive; in fact, I'd say that friendship is a necessary component of genuine romance. I think a lot of the idea of the friend zone comes from stereotypical "nice guys" who tend to take a while to get to know a girl before being ready/brave enough/attracted enough etc. to make the move... and since the girl in question does view them positively, but not romantically, she says "I only see you as a friend" or "our friendship is too important" because that seems nicer than actually listing what the missing components of desirability actually are.

[Serpentine]

I know I said I'd back out of this, but, well, I lied this is an addition from the sidelines.
I'd like to put in a refinement of what I was saying.
The "friend bin" or equivalent, as used everywhere I've seen it, as opposed to being talked about, as in this discussion
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. You have also been categorised as "a friend who I will never date, ever, no matter what, because you're my Friiiiieeeeeennnnnnd, and I never want you to be any more than that", and therefore I will never date you, ever, no matter what.
Boy: Dang.

Real life
Boy: I like you. As in, you know, like.
Girl: You are my friend. I really like you and enjoy being around you. But, I'm sorry, for one reason or another, you're just not the sort of person I'm interested in dating right now.
Boy: Dang. Is it because I'm in the Friend Bin?

It seems like you imagine the female mind is set up like this -
Not dateable: Friend.
Dateable: You, unless you're a Friend.

Whereas in fact it's probably more like this:
Friend: Funny/intelligent/interesting/clever/etc
Dateable: As above, + "something else" and/or "clicking" + attraction

To take Vorpal Tribble's example (sorry VT), there's an excellent chance he is exactly what she wants. She may even, conciously or not, be taking him as her model for what she does want. But, for some reason, or quite possibly no reason, or at least none she's aware of, she's just not attracted to him in that way right now. That's just the way it is. No categories, no bins, no status, just simply no interest. Unless she thinks he's too good for her..

I think I had something to add that would make this all make sense, but I've forgotten it. So you'll just have to make do.

edit: Holy Knight, I just realised that your last paragraph there is exactly what I'm trying to get across here. I wonder how successful I was...

Oh, ZRS, Goff and I started out as friends. Admittedly, I'd decided I wanted him reasonably early on, but we're still friends. In fact, we're friends enough that we can discuss things like marriage and breaking up without getting scared or embarrassed. I fully expect our eventual break-up to be a reasonably friendly one, probably due to us moving apart for work (I don't know that we'd quite be able to handle it if we were in the same town, and almost certainly not if we were still in the same house).
Again, I had a point to add to that. Oh well, your loss

[Sir_Norbert]

Agreed, and I'd add the flip side: Not dating exes of friends. Even if the friend says it's okay with them--as a general rule, that's a bad thing to do.

I know this is getting off on another tangent, but can I just ask about this, because, to be honest, although I've seen this and the other rule come up a few times in these threads, I've never understood them? If you're in love with someone and you feel you'd be happy if you were with them and not happy if you couldn't be with them, how does that outweigh a friend's hurt feelings that he will surely get over in time, as we all do? Surely a real friend would say (and mean) at this point, "If this is what you need for your happiness, then it's what I want too"....

But then, maybe I don't understand this because I've never been into the dating game, I've just had two relationships where we started off as friends and came to realise we were in love and then started dating. Probably my experience is very different from many of yours.

[Serpentine]

I agree with you there, too, Norbert. On all of it, actually. Including the experience.
...
=.=

Quit stealing my thoughts.

[mdsoze]

On both rules:

The "don't date friends of exes" rule and the "don't date exes of friends" rule have similar origins.

If you date a friend of an ex, you're going to run into your ex in the course of hanging out with your new flame. That may be an experience anywhere from harrowing to tolerable on the emotional scale, so that can be one discouragement. Depending on the closeness of the friend, the length of time between the breakup and the new relationship, you also can spawn rumors of cheating, and that you were seeing the second person while still in the first relationship.

If you date an ex of a friend, there is going to be some conflict between you and your friend, some feelings of betrayal. Now, if your friend is a friend, that person will eventually come around and support you, I agree. But, you have to decide how important this is. If you're just looking to date for fun, or dating to try to see what kind of person that you want, then creating those kinds of complications wouldn't be worth it. If you've been in love with this particular person since the day you and your friend met him/her, and the only reason you didn't make a move then was that your friend was already doing so, and you didn't flirt and waited like a gentleman/lady for your friend and this person to break up, and then you'd like to make a move, it would be a different story.

I guess both "rules" are more guidelines, trying to help you stay clear of social drama and complications in most situations. But, as has been said many a time, "All's Fair in Love and War".

ZRS: I agree that a relationship is unique to the people involved. However, you can find certain patterns in relationships, and repeated motifs that occur again and again, and start to classify relationships in groups based on commonalities. Probably the engineer in me that causes me to do it, but there are certainly patterns in human behavior, and I find the people around me to be a lot easier to understand by looking at those patterns. Kind of like how no two snowflakes are alike, but you can catagorize the crystals by the type of snow that they produce.

Serpentine: I've already said way too much about the friends bin, but I also agree with Holy Knight. The "friends bin" is a way for a guy that has been turned down by a woman who is friends with him, but not interested in him, to just understand that despite the fact that she likes him as a friend, she has no interest in him. It's not the real reason, it doesn't even attempt to explain the reason. It's just a psychological way of accepting that she's not romantically interested in you, and telling you that no matter how much more effort you put into the friendship, it's not going anywhere romantically. So manage your expectations, and if you can't do that, just move on. As I said, if everyone were open and honest about their feelings, we wouldn't need a friends bin, but since pretty much everyone doesn't tell the truth when rejecting someone, these sorts of things will persist.

MF11: I understand. I feel the exact same way about all of my exes. For me, that meant that I ended up losing the friendship with them in every case but 1. I have very strong emotions, and controlling them is hard (and was harder when I was younger). I agree with previous advisers, in that I think a break might do you good. The length of the break should be at least a month, maybe 2, longer if you feel you need it. At the very least, a break would give you time to evaluate you emotions, and see if the friend thing is going to be possible for you.

FdL: My advice to you would be to stop starting the relationships online. I don’t know your age, but regardless, can you take a class to learn a new skill in the evenings? Or see if there’s a Science-Fiction book club somewhere in town? The times I’ve been alone or in need of starting new friendships/relationships, my first move is to look around for some sort of thing I can join. First of all, you already have a topic of conversation in common with the people you meet, and second of all, the people there are also expecting to meet others.

And I know you see yourself as a bad person. Believe it or not, a lot of people I know have had days/weeks/months where they see themselves that way.

And also, part of learning what works is failing repeatedly at it. I had several relationships die horrible, bloody deaths before I found the one that is working for me. One of my friends has gone on 2 or 3 first dates a month for most of the last four years, and his longest relationship was 3 and a half months. There’s just a lot of failure and attrition in these things, and part of being successful is still believing it can happen.

Midnight Son: I’m happy for you that you were able to deal with being in that situation and have a productive friendship. I’m very impressed. For me, being in that situation causes too much emotional angst, too much pain, and ends up poisoning the friendship. Therefore, before it gets in the way, I usually just scale back the friendship to an acquaintance if I know it’s going to do nothing but hurt me. As mentioned about, I have strong emotions, and am not always the best at controlling them.

[ForzaFiori]

the whole "dont date a friends ex" and "dont date the friend of an ex" thing is, imho, useless. I've done both (hell the girl i mentioned up there ^11 is the ex of my best friend and good friends with one of my exs.) and nothing is wrong. as long as you are completely over your ex (which i personally believe you should always be b4 you get a new gf/bf), and your friend doesn't care, then go for it.

[FdL]

Thanks Alarra, Holy_Knight, mdsoze, and the rest who endure my confused and pain-filled posts.

I guess I just need to stop thinking about women and dating and concentrate on being better myself. It's not that I've lost all hope, it's probably related to the fact that it's not going to happen because I'm not feeling well with myself.

And yeah, starting relationships online or having them available online is a dreadful commodity that doesn't do me any good, I should move away from that because experience has shown me that it's not what I want.

[Syka]

I don't entirely agree with you.

What is your definition of "being over"? I can say truly that I'm still not totally over my ex if it means I'd have to see him with a friend. If I were to see him with someone else, it would kill a little bit in me. If that someone else was a friend that would hurt a much bigger part. I'm functionally over him. I don't think about him much, it doesn't interfere, etc. But I still can't communicate with him and I know the above situation would be very tense and awkward.

That doesn't mean I wasn't ready to date Jerkface. In fact, I was more ready than he was I think. And right now it is the same situation. I'm functionally over him. But there are still certain things that twist the knife and I'm just learning to deal with it.

It does not mean I'm not ready to date.


Also, as someone else said, they are more guidelines. As a general rule, I follow that. Now if the situation involving only not having made a move because your friend did first, yada yada yada happened, that would be different.

Cheers,
Syka

[Vampiric]

I agree with the 'no dating friends ex's, or a friend of an ex', because, with a friends ex, like Syka said, if it's fairly successful, you're twisting a knife in your friend, and that could lead to alienation. Likewise, dating a friend of an ex would likely lead to the ex not liking you. Bad if you wanted to stay friends.

mf11: I had exactly the same thing about 2 1/2 months ago. I was surprised a couple of days ago to realise that I'm actually over her already. When it happened, I thought it would take years, and I was almost inconsolable. I would agree that space and time apart helps. Wait until you feel 'over' her, then go for the friendship. Otherwise you only hurt yourself, but part of you will blame it on her, and you might accidentally say something you don't entirely mean.

*hugs* to anyone else with a woe. Hope it's better soon - there's enough advice on this thread for almost any situation, I think...

[ocato]

snrrrk!

So, tonight I might have a pseudo-blind date with internet dating site girl. Except by blind-date I mean watch some dvds maybe. But I dunno if I should watch them upstairs and have room mates going 'who is this how'd you meet, lol dating site?' etc etc or being like 'let's go watch this downstairs in my bedroom sitting on my bed" *creepy hannibal lecter mouth thing*

This is gonna be a long and painful experience. Maybe I'll make up an excuse to back out and get drunk instead.

[Serpentine]

This is good, don't back out! A little odd maybe, but meh. If you'd be more comfortable watching them upstairs, maybe approach your housemates before-hand, explain that you'd probably prefer to be left alone as much as possible, and get all the piss-taking out of the way early.

[ocato]

Appreciate the advice, but she changed her mind about coming over. This is a person who is a master of subtlety where I do not know if she likes me or suffers me. She alternates between interested in talking to me and terribly blah about it. Humans should be forced to speak their minds at all times!

I love YOOHOO!

[zeratul]

Oh I just wanted to pop in and say if you're looking for updates, there are no updates, other than that one person I was talking to thought it was strange that I did not express my emotions more around this girl. To be fair we've only been hanging out for about three months. But is it in fact odd, seeing as I'm good friends with her now, and feel the way I do about her?

[Alebeard_Thunderax]

And both Jerkface and Ex WERE people I wanted to spend time with. I did get to know them before dating them, and they are people I wish I had been able to remain friends with- even without the "relationship".

Hey, you still could. Stranger things have happened.