Advice for lawful evil

[NyxMorigan]

Hi
I'm playing a pathfinder game where I'm playing a lawful evil kitsune sorcerer. However it's my first go at doing a lawful evil character....any advice for playing?

[Kantaki]

Avoid breaking your word.

Now that shouldn't mean you can't be dishonest or cheat.
You can twist it, bend it and use misleading phrasing, you can stack the deck in your favour or omit things, but outright lying should only be employed if there's no other option.

An exemption might be if you planned to betray them from the beginning.
Under the condition that they can't come back to take revenge of course.
Someone intended as a sacrifice/cannon fodder- someone expendable -can of course be convinced to help you with false promises.
I mean, you promised the reward after the mission. Not your fault they didn't survive to claim it.
But even then the „reward” should be real enough to make it believable.
The same goes for enemies.
However, isn't it much more satisfying if you get them to misinterpret you? To use their assumption against them?
Let's say the heroes goody-two-shoes have something you need and you have a hostage (or more) important to them.
Wouldn't the hostage’s safety be worth the Macguffin?
Releasing them? Letting them go with the good guys?
You only said you would guarantee their safety.
In fact you still need the hostage for something.
Besides, they wouldn't really be safe with the good guys right now...

Aunt Edith says: But why don't we ask the expert?
Red Fel
Red Fel
Red Fel

[Grim Portent]

The appropriate way to play LE will vary depending on the character in question and why they are evil and what their long term goals are, but generically speaking:

1) Be consistent. Work out what your responses to certain things are and try to stick to these when possible.

For example a Lawful character should generally respond to bandits the same way every time they encounter them unless there's something important that changes the circumstances, more important than mere whim or first impressions. By contrast a Chaotic character will judge each bandit group they encounter differently, often basing decisions on things as insignificant as if the bandits were polite when trying to rob people or not.

Have your ethical and moral lines planned out beforehand rather than improvising them, then apply them equally to everyone you meet. All pickpockets are punished the same, all allies are expected to hold the same standards of diligence and efficiency in their duties, so on and so forth. Your ethics should be a rock on which people can anchor their expectations, be they just or unjust.

2) Be willing to break the law.

Evil is by it's nature willing to kill, cheat, steal and worse. Being Lawful does not change that. Avoid falling into the trap of thinking Lawful alignment = legal or fair behavior only.

3) Be open to cleaving to group decisions even when they offend your own morals or obstruct your goals. Don't fight other players over things like merciless executions when the majority are opposed.

Unlike a Good character you shouldn't really have moral limits in the way they do. A Good person can't condone the murder and consumption of a harmless innocent and stay Good, but you stay Evil simply by advocating the Evil course of action even if you never get to act on it.

[Strigon]

We have a person for that.
He'll be along shortly. Please, take a seat.

In the meantime, feel free to do a little light reading.

[ErebusVonMori]

Choose a code of honour, stick to it.

Warning: Code of honour need not be honourable.

Edit: To aid the summoning of our dread lord Red Fel. Red Fel. Red Fel.

[Trekkin]

While we await our dread lord, some supplementary advice:

The kind of Lawful Evil that works best in mixed groups is frequently the kind that's Lawful first and Evil second.

First, have a long-term plan for what it is that your character wants. If they want to control the world, fine. If they want to ascend to devilhood, that's cool too. Whatever it is, make sure it doesn't directly damage the other PCs before the projected end of the campaign; if all else fails, be the second-most-urgent problem on their list.

Second, restrict your short-term Evil mostly to those actions that directly further your long-term plan, and recognize that the net worth of a blatant action of which your party strenuously disapproves is quite likely to be negative. Walking around looking for puppies to kick is not only disruptive, it's silly and unbecoming to boot. Bide your time. In time, you will find potential underlings whose efforts can be turned to furthering your goals. They are good targets at which to vent your Evilness. You will also find competitors, which are even better for this sort of thing: Good has a funny way of permitting Evil-on-Evil violence as "the inevitable reward of wickedness" or some such. Remember how I said to be the second most urgent problem on the other PCs' hit list? This is how you deal with #3 and below. For the other PCs, villains are a problem to solve; for you, they're an opportunity for your natural inclination toward merciless brutality to be rewarded rather than chastised.

The rest is largely presentation -- which is of course of considerable importance to playing Lawful Evil enjoyably. Read the Evil Overlord list, sure, but understand that you can totally suspend people feet-first over a piranha tank and leave them to their fate now and again provided you're confident in your ability to recapture them. Recognize where you can afford to get splashy in case efficient Evil gets too dull.

One option is of course to be the voice of hard reason in dialogue. Question whether the party can really afford to save all the innocents or take the most righteous path; be willing to consider the long-term consequences of nominally "good" actions and point out where letting the village burn might actually help the country in the long run. Many Good folks, and especially Neutrals, are strangely willing to tolerate having an evil teammate on whom they can pin the lose-lose situations and necessary sacrifices, provided they think you're acting out of pragmatism.

[Honest Tiefling]

Lawful evil is a terrible descriptor! Lawful evil is your ALIGNMENT. It is not your character. So while we wait for our fiendish overlord, I suggest you flesh out your character for us. Even typing things out can help some people grapple with thorny issues. And, it gives us a place to start.

There must be a reason you picked evil after all, correct?

[BarbieTheRPG]

The Lawful Evil guide

Loyalty would be very important to Kitsune society and LE characters. Kitsune are normally neutral-aligned but there's always exceptions.

[Jay R]

You're doing it backwards. Decide how you want to play your character, and then pick an alignment that fits.

Playing a character in a way that isn't what you wanted to do in the first place is like wearing a suit that doesn't fit. You can certainly do it, but it will be permanently uncomfortable.

Besides, there are ten thousand ways to play "Lawful Evil".

[veti]

Lawful evil is a terrible descriptor! Lawful evil is your ALIGNMENT. It is not your character. So while we wait for our fiendish overlord, I suggest you flesh out your character for us. Even typing things out can help some people grapple with thorny issues. And, it gives us a place to start.

While you're at it, it would also help if you could tell us something about the rest of the party. Are they evil, good, neutral? Lawful, chaotic? Government-employed, freelance heroes or murderhobos? Makes quite a difference.

And anything you know about the setting and the campaign might also be relevant. Is the world ending? Is there a war on? Is the Dark Lord threatening dire whatever that the party is expected to thwart, or is the beneficent ruler planning a railway line through your backyard?

[Cluedrew]

Aunt Edith says: But why don't we ask the expert?
Red Fel
Red Fel
Red Fel

Edit: To aid the summoning of our dread lord Red Fel. Red Fel. Red Fel.

Has anyone just considered a Personal Message? Not sure if he is been one much recently though, he didn't show up in Writing Villains either. Although I find it amusing that 3 of 4 people to mention Red Fel so far use the NecromancerGuy avatar.

Without more detail I'm going to have to say "play a lawful character who happens to be evil". Most of the general tips have been covered already (if not here than in a linked thread) and I think we need more information to go further than that.

[Berenger]

Although I find it amusing that 3 of 4 people to mention Red Fel so far use the NecromancerGuy avatar.

That's because Lawful Evil is well organized.

Red Fel! Red Fel! Red Fel!

[Kantaki]

That's because Lawful Evil is well organized.

Red Fel! Red Fel! Red Fel!

Who are you calling lawful evil there?

[Honest Tiefling]

That's because Lawful Evil is well organized.

I personally prefer to think of you as his cheerleaders, just with a very baggy uniform.

And anything you know about the setting and the campaign might also be relevant. Is the world ending? Is there a war on? Is the Dark Lord threatening dire whatever that the party is expected to thwart, or is the beneficent ruler planning a railway line through your backyard?

Not sure if this was meant as sarcasm, but the more information, the better. Evil characters require integration into the story as much as a paladin does, in my opinion. (Can't have a paladin wandering around in a intrigue based grey on gray morality game, after all!) We can only give good advice if we know what is going on, else...It's going to be pretty general.

Another suggestion is to form a bond with another character, to use as a quick and dirty reason to help. Maybe your character feels like another is a friend and really doesn't want them to die. Maybe they are a relative, and honor demands you help.

Of course, there is always speaking to the DM. If the DM has made their own campaign setting, abuse the fact they love their creation and integrate yourself into it. If it is an established setting, figure out what would work out with his plot the best. Heck, even knowing what sort of stories they favor could be helpful.

[ErebusVonMori]

More that LE naturally falls into a hierarchy and we all know who's at the top. The reason this happens is because otherwise the number of LE people in a given organisation is one, and a number of corpses. I do however welcome other people challenging our dread lord for the title.

Red Fel. Red Fel. Red Fel.

[Pauly]

I think LE is best played Lawful first, and then more amoral, not immoral. Especially at lower levels. You don't have a particular grand evil goal in mind or intention to commit harm, you simply just don't care if other people get hurt in the process.

Think of soldiers in a tyrannical regime. They may not have any particular personal motivation to burn the village, but if they get the order they do it as efficiently as possible, then clean the blood off their weapons and sleep soundly at night.

Examples: a prisoner is attempting an escape. Your other party members shout "quick, someone stop him". You: stab the prisoner in the back then get bemused when the other party members get offended "Well he isn't escaping anymore is he?"
If the penalty for stealing is to have your hand cut off. When the orphan steals an apple from a team member, you summarily carry out the punishment while the other team members are discussing on what to do with the poor waif.

[Honest Tiefling]

More that LE naturally falls into a hierarchy and we all know who's at the top. The reason this happens is because otherwise the number of LE people in a given organisation is one, and a number of corpses. I do however welcome other people challenging our dread lord for the title.

So...What's the difference between this and chaotic evil? How snazzy the uniforms are?

[NorthernPhoenix]

My interpretation of "Lawful Evil" has less to do with legal law or personal codes, and more to do with values. Lawful Evil people are Evil people who value order, structure, routine and hierarchy. Being evil, they are also selfish and want to enforce these values on others if possible and probably desire the "top spot" within any given structure or hierarchy, and think nothing of achieving this at the expense of others.

[sktarq]

One way to play LE (there are infinite) that hasn't been mentioned yet.

"Law is my hammer" - Basically you use the law, traditions, etc as your social tools for your very selfish ends.

Another way

Sin Eater - you do what is necessary. You deeply believe in the society or system you serve but know that at times it must be protected with everything from blackmail, blades, the executioner's ax, and torture. The glory or your society is not for you-to accept that would be to mar the very thing you care about. Niceness is a tool for your society that is found in other hands. When a village must be sacrificed to preserve the county-everyone knows you are the one to call o, even to drive the refugee children back into quarantine. Think the Warhammer40K imperial system if you need help.

Others are my tool kit. "Others"? They are things, they have value in how they may help you gain what you want (and that may be something like what you think the world should be and if they help that you may be very nice). When you need to do things that are perhaps against the law-be careful. Be diligent. There are good sources to help you with this but I would toss Hannibal Lecter as an inspiration here. Organized, planning, courteous, whose interests run to what wine is best paired to various of your internal organs.


And remember you want - and will strive to get that without regard to other's well being. It is usually assumed with Lawful character that they want power and to be at the top of a hierarchy many but by no means universally. Becoming the best sculptor may need you drive your apprentices and slaves to death but once you have your workshop noninterference may take priority as more power and responsibility may interfere with your actual goal.

Best of luck, it is a chance to show those foxy fangs

[Stealth Marmot]

First off let's get it out of the way: Philosophers have been trying to define evil since language was a thing yadda yadda now lets get down to what is generally accepted D&D alignments.

Generally, Lawful Evil is less damaging in the short term and more dangerous in the long term. Lawful Evil is tyranny, whereas Chaotic Evil is sheer destruction and mayhem. When Chaotic Evil marches in and starts murdering for kicks, people rise up and band together and say "Hey knock that crap off!" in so many words and or stabbing motions. On the other hand, when tyranny starts coming around it comes with kind words, politeness, and most of all PROMISE. Lawful evil is pragmatic, negotiable, and worst off all, they think they are in the right. That doesn't mean they aren't selfish, callous, duplicitous, or flat out hateful.

I find examples can help you, and I will steer away from real world examples as they can be pretty ambiguous. My favorite Lawful Evil example is Tywin Lannister.

Let's be clear, this man is callous, hateful, abusive, greedy, and willing to do whatever is necessary to get what he wants. However, he also does so in a very ordered fashion. His word is law and he will do what he promises, at least on paper. But, most of all, he has a purpose that he does all of these things for: His family's legacy. Everything he does, he does in order to make the family legacy grander, better, more powerful. The family legacy is all that matters to him, and YET he is willing to hurt and abuse and manipulate his own family to do it.

That's the crazy thing about evil. Evil is not bound by thoughts of mercy or morality, so it can get so lost in its pursuit of its goals it won't realize its destroying the thing they believe they cherish so much.

So where does this leave your Kitsune Sorcerer? It leaves you with a question: What does your Kitsune value? What is it they are after and are willing to do anything that is necessary for?

See, a chaotic evil character has wants and desires, but they will be fleeting and malleable. "I want to burn that house, now I want to murder everyone. Wait, it's a pain in the butt to try to kill people, I'll just go get drunk and piss on the holy symbols of the local church and start a fight with an orphan."

Lawful Evil on the other hand is more likely to have a goal. They will be far more likely to pursue it doggedly, and they will follow whatever they have to in order to get it. Follow the law, follow a path, be willing to sacrifice anything that is necessary (and favor sacrificing what isn't even theirs).

Ask yourself, what precisely would your Kitsune Sorcerer sacrifice their soul for? When you have that figured out, have them be willing to go through whatever means will get them closer to that goal. Keep in mind however, that lawful evil is LESS likely to look for the quick shortcut, and instead be willing to get in it for the longhaul. Backstab your party for a free level in Sorcerer? Nah, grouping with the party is far more likely to result in many MORE sorcerer levels.

That said, if a member of your party is getting in the way of your goals, feel free to arrange their "accidental" removal from the living world.

I think more than any other alignment, Lawful Evil is most likely to be driven by ambition. So be in it for the longhaul, and figure out what drives your character.

A little piece of advice though: Lawful Evil, and really ANY evil, can make friends they will be loyal to. Make sure your party becomes such people. Hell, it can be a good arc when the Lawful Evil character uses horrific means to attain what the other good aligned characters want. You wanted starvation to be fixed and I fixed it, through forced labor and the merciful executions of those incapable of helping to provide food, like the sick and elderly. Don't worry, I made sure the wealthy did their part as well, they have so generously donated most of their holdings and land by swordpoint. Why at this rate the food will be in surplus, why are you upset?

[ShaneMRoth]

You want advice?

Play the character, not the alignment.

Let the decision to select the Lawful Evil alignment inform your decisions, but nothing more.

[khadgar567]

wow still no respond from his evilness red fel color me shocked.

[Fri]

He's still depressed from the inability of his evil kilbots to make proper breakfast

[RazorChain]

Hi
I'm playing a pathfinder game where I'm playing a lawful evil kitsune sorcerer. However it's my first go at doing a lawful evil character....any advice for playing?

I'll just post a general advice


Find out who your character is, what she/he likes or dislikes, what motivates her/him. Hopes, dreams, quirks, moods etc.

Don't let alignment hem you in. Evil characters tend toward callous, cruel and selfish. When you have found out who your character is then you can assign alignment.


So if you are playing a Sorcerer who is loyal to a fault, always keeps his/her word and follows a morbid code of honor but is willing to sacrifice almost anyting in his/her pursuit of power, wealth and knowledge then you could assign lawful evil to your character.

[hifidelity2]

I have a LE Wizard /Thief

His goals were
At Low levels it was to survive (the DM had the local mafia after him) , ingratiate himself into the party (us use them to help him survive) and make money

At medium levels it was to take over the local mafia and set up a rival magic school (the empire controlled magic)

At high Level it was to become the crime boss for the whole empire and to become the power behind the throne within the Empire wizard school

BUT he is loyal to his friends & Family

He does not want to disrupt society he just wants to control it (quietly). A stable, prosperous society is a nice place to live and provides a lot of income.

[Mutazoia]

Lawful Evil characters will tend to believe that the good of society vastly outweighs the good of the members of said society. They are the ones that advocate and enforce slavery, because free labor makes for better profits. They are the ones that vilify other nations/races to create an external threat that must be guarded against at the cost of certain freedoms...for anyone not of their social status. They are the ones that believe in torture to gain information. They are the ones that would come up with the idea of drowning a person accused of being a witch and say if she lives, she's a witch and must be executed (so the poor person dies either way). They are the ones that believe the ends justify the means, and that might equals right.

They are the insurance lawyers that find loop holes in your coverage to keep the company from paying for the service you paid them for. They are the mafia Don's, and the cartel bosses. They are the politicians who draft laws that make them rich, and squash laws that provide for the common masses. They are the televangelists who live in large mansions and drive expensive cars, and condemn others for their lifestyle choices, simply to play on the fears and insecurities of their viewers (and make more money from donations, of course). They are the crooked cops, and the school bullies, who use the system for their benefit, at the cost of others safety and security. They are the college professors who offer better grades for sexual favors.

They are the ones that twist the system to their advantage, so that everything they do seems perfectly legal, and may very well be so.

[BarbieTheRPG]

I have a LE Wizard /Thief

His goals were
At Low levels it was to survive (the DM had the local mafia after him) , ingratiate himself into the party (us use them to help him survive) and make money

At medium levels it was to take over the local mafia and set up a rival magic school (the empire controlled magic)

At high Level it was to become the crime boss for the whole empire and to become the power behind the throne within the Empire wizard school

BUT he is loyal to his friends & Family

He does not want to disrupt society he just wants to control it (quietly). A stable, prosperous society is a nice place to live and provides a lot of income.

That's LE by definition.

[Segev]

A Lawful Evil Kitsune is an interesting twist, to me. I usually see them more as chaotic tricksters. I am unsure if you're still going "trickster" with this character, or not.

Remember, above all else, that Lawful Evil plays well with others...at least in its immediate circle. It can be dealt with, because it adheres to rules.

Q, at his more malevolent but playful, strikes me as a good template to follow for an LE trickster-type. A lawful trickster plays games, which means he sets up rules, victory conditions, and even (possibly) prizes. He may well force people to play against their will, and exert force and punishment for refusing to play by his rules, but if they beat him fairly, he will concede. He can be a sore loser or a graceful one, but he WILL concede; that's what makes him Lawful. ("Prizes" can be genuine rewards, or the prize for him could be taking whatever he wants from the victims under the veneer of having won it 'fairly,' and the "prize" for the victims could be simply being allowed to escape with lives and property intact. Or there could be a prize given out that is a Xanatos Gambit: the winner using it still serves him in some fashion.)

In general, though, Lawful Evil is ruthless in applying the rules he follows to his best advantage. He will work with his party without betraying them, because betrayal is not Lawful (as a general rule, at least). He will aid them; as with any Evil alignment, he can be the one who does the hard things behind the party's back. He is trustworthy; if he gave his word, he'll keep it. A well-played LE character in a generally-Good party will often be hard to tell apart from an LN character, at least from moment to moment. It will only be when the chips are down and he consistently chooses the less merciful, more ruthlessly efficient path that his true alignment becomes clear. Not because the Evil isn't important compared to the Law, but because he's working with these people for a reason, and thus allows them their Lawfully-agreed-upon group decisions. He might take matters into his own hands in private, of course, but only to the benefit of his party.

[khadgar567]

Well atleast we have second best thing happen to thr treat. We may not have red fel answered our summons but atleast gitp regulars very own evil nercomancer overlord answered our pleas

[LibraryOgre]

For me, a good thing to look at is Palladium's "Aberrant" alignment.

Aberrant
1. Always keeps his word of honor
2. Lie & cheat those not worthy of his respect
3. May or may not kill an unarmed foe
4. Not kill an innocent particularly a child but will harm or kidnap
5. Never kill for pleasure
6. Not resort to inhumane treatment of prisoners, but torture, although distasteful, is necessary means of extracting info.
7. Never torture for pleasure
8. May or may not help someone in need
9. work with others to attain his goals
10. Respect honor and self-discipline
11. Never betray a friend

While the name is weird, it provides an outline of one way of playing LE... a strong central code, based around personal integrity, but with a willingness to inflict harm on others to achieve their goals. You'll note it doesn't really have much to do with following the law, so much as being relatively predictable in certain situations... if he's given his word, he'll keep it. He won't kill an innocent, but enemy combatants are fair game. He doesn't kill because it is fun, but because it is necessary to achieve his goals.

In a lot of ways, the difference between (moral) Neutrality and Evil in D&D comes down to extremes... a neutral person is selfish, but won't necessarily hurt someone to achieve their goals. An evil person is selfish (in that their actions serve to improve and aggrandize themselves), and won't hesitate to hurt someone if it clearly advances their goals; (a good person, for reference, will avoid hurting someone to achieve their goals, but D&D's definition of good has always been a bit more violent than the traditional definition).