Almighty Claw of Malar (v2.0) - a monk/warlock gish

[Gruftzwerg]

Spoiler: Introduction

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Introduction:
Welcome to my update of my first build here on the forum. The first build contains some minor rule bugs and wrong interpretations. But now I am a bit more confident in my ruling skills and have refined my character building skills further and want to give it another try.

The Build is inspired by many cartoon/manga/anime super-heroes. If you want to have some Dragon Ball Z feeling (fly, "empowered" unarmed attacks, fast movement, charge/pounce..) with your hero, you are welcome
Another big impact on the build had "Buddhas Hand", a special attack as shown in the comedy film Kung Fu Hustle

The original builds intend was to "rise the Powerlevel up to OVER 9000 !!!"^^. While the new build still has plenty of damage, my focus shifted to the predator aspect of the build. Now we have a predator with multiple layers of detection and deception.
After all, you "wanna be(come)" the prime alpha of the entire nature, namely the ...

Almighty Claw of Malar

Dogma

Survival of the fittest and the winnowing of the weak are Malar's legacy. A brutal, bloody death or kill has great meaning. The crux of life is the challenge between the hunter and the prey, the determination of who lives or dies. View every important task as a hunt. Remain ever alert and alive. Walk the wilderness without trepidation, and show no fear to the hunt. Savagery and strong emotions defeat reason and careful thought in all things. Taste the blood of those you slay, and never kill from a distance. Work against those who cut back the forest and who kill beasts solely because they are dangerous. Slay not the young, the pregnant, or deepspawn so that prey will remain plentiful.

Spoiler: Monk-2 / Warlock-3 / Barbarian-1 / Drunken Master-2 / Enlightend Fist-9 / Fist of the Forest-1 / Warblade-1 / Mindbender-1

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Race:
Human

Ability Scores:
Str 16 + 5 lvlUp + 5 manual + 6 item = 32 total
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 8

2 flaws, some suggestions that fits the build/theme:
- Bestial Instinct: -2 to hit with anything other than unarmed strike & natural attacks
- Shaky: -2 to hit with ranged attacks
- Short Attention Span: can't take 20

Lvl Path A:
1) Monk - Combat Casting, Dodge*, Great Fortitude**, Power Attack**, Stunning Fist***
2) Monk - Combat Reflexes/Deflect Arrow*** (chose which one you prefer)
3) Warlock - Imp. Bull Rush (Invocation: See the Unseen)
4) Warlock - (Invocation: Serpent's Tongue)
5) Warlock
6) Barbarian - *ACF Pounce*, Eldritch Claws
7) Drunken Master
8) Drunken Master
9) Enlightened Fist - Beast Strike
10) Enlightened Fist - (Invocation: Entropic Warding)
11) Enlightened Fist
12) Enlightened Fist - Shock Trooper (Invocation: Fell Flight)
13) Fist of the Forest
14) Warblade - (Stance: Leading the Charge), (Maneuvers: White Raven Tactics, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge)
15) Enlightened Fist - Darkstalker
16) Enlightened Fist
17) Enlightened Fist - (Invocation: Charm)
18) Mindbender - Mindsight
19) Enlightened Fist - (Invocation: Walk Unseen)
20) Enlightened Fist - (Invocation: Nightmares Made Real)
* = Human bonus feat
** = Feats from flaws
*** = Monk bonus feats

Lvl Path B:
(trades Evasion for Feign Death and buys instead a ring of Evasion @lvl11 to enter Drunken Master)
1) Monk - Combat Casting, Dodge*, Great Fortitude**, Power Attack**, Stunning Fist***
2) Monk - ACF: Feign Death, Combat Reflexes/Deflect Arrow*** (chose which one you prefer)
3) Warlock - Imp. Bull Rush
4) Warlock
5) Warlock
6) Barbarian - *ACF Pounce*, Eldritch Claws
7) Enlightened Fist
8) Enlightened Fist
9) Enlightened Fist - Beast Strike
10) Enlightened Fist
11) Enlightened Fist
12) Drunken Master - Shock Trooper
13) Drunken Master
14) Fist of the Forest
15) Warblade - Darkstalker (Stance: Leading the Charge), (Maneuvers: White Raven Tactics, Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge)
16) Enlightened Fist
17) Enlightened Fist
18) Mindbender - Mindsight
19) Enlightened Fist
20) Enlightened Fist
* = Human bonus feat
** = Feats from flaws
*** = Monk bonus feats

Note: the feats and PRC progression can be rearranged to some degree. Depending on what abilities you want to prioritize. (e.g. go from Barb directly into Enlightened Fist to get your HIPS with NMR faster).

Spoiler: Recommend Magic Items

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760,000g budget @lvl 20

Pectoral of Maneuverability: 12,000g
Increases your maneuverability with Fell Flight to perfect.

Ghost Shroud: 5,000g
for ghost touch unarmed attacks

Third Eye (Conceal): 120,000g
For obvious reasons. You are a full melee in a world of dirty lil caster tricks. Don't give em the opportunity.

Hathran Mask of True Seeing: 75,000g
for almost the same reasons as the Third Eye. Further it helps you against the misschance/concealment of your own NMR invocation

KI Straps & Shadow Hands (Novice: "Cloak of Deception"): 5000g + 1.5x3,000g = 9,500g total
You need to apply the Shadow Hands on KI Straps. Because "Feral Trance" destroys Gloves. Cloak of Deception is a nice maneuver that let's you do your turn/full-attack with greather invisibility.

Strength Manual +5: 137,500g
flat bonus, not much to tell here

Sandals of the Tiger's Leap + Anklet of Translocation: 3,500g + 1.5x1,500g = 5,750g total
Apply the "Sandals of the Tiger's Leap"-ability to an Anklet of Translocation. Again, because of "Feral Trance", which destroys regular boots. The Sandals help with it's charge multiplier in your dmg output

Shadow Cloak: 5,500g
Why another method of short range teleport when you already have Anklet of Translocation you ask? Because you need more charges mainly. But the real deal with this cloak is, that it's an immediate action (!) and can be used on enemies turn. Abuse it to the max: dodge enemy ranged attack you are aware of, sidestep when someone charges at you.. endless options here

Monk's Belt of Giant Strength +6: 1.5x15,000g + 36,000g = 58,500g total
Monk's Belt + Fist of the Forest tops you at 20lvl worth of unarmed monk damage (when you hit lvl 20). +6 Str again just flat bonus which we need.

Bracers of (Soulfire) Armor +1(+5): 25,000g & +1 (+2) Armor Spikes (+1 Warning, + Spellbalde: Dispell Magic): 14,350g = 39,350g total
AC will be dumped by Shock Trooper, but we still need Death Ward against instakill effects. The armor spikes are just there to split costs and reduce the cost of the Warning ability. It would have cost much more if it would be on the necklace (+9 instead of +8). Spellblade helps if someone tries to dispel you, you can absorb it and trow it back if you want next round.

Neclace of Natural Attacks +5(+8): (+1 Impaling, +1 Whirlwind, +1 Valorous, + Sizing, + Spellbalde: Greater Dispell Magic) 139,600g
+5 is needed for the hit and extra dmg (which gets multiplied); Impaling lets you ignore AC for 3 attacks/day; Whirlwind is usable with pounce; Valorous & Sizing are great dmg boosts for this build. Note the unarmed attack always count as light weapon, even at colossal size (-8 to hit).

Greater Crystal of Lifedrinking: 6,000g
It doesn't have to be always the dedicated healer that heals your wounds. You are self sufficient to some degree. Further, now you can heal while hunting your next meal (for primal living).

Ring of Darkhidden & Chameleon Power: 1.5x2,000g + 12,700g = 15,700g total
Ring of Darkhidden is great in dark areas where your enemies rely (maybe sole) on darkvision. You are invisible to them. Chameleon Power is just a nice +10 hide bonus with at will Disguise Self which is handy by itself.

Ring of Nine Lifes & Entropic Deflection: 45,000g + 1.5x8,000g = 57,000g
Well, if the name doesn't turn you on (in terms of fitting the fluff of this build ;), I don't know what will. 9 charges which heal you immediately when you drop below 0 and you can even spent 1charge/day to auto-success a failed save (!!). Become a real predator cat with 9 lives^^.
While we already have Entropic Warding, we won't drop it due to trackless and can't be tracked by scent. The ring is just the better version for the deflection bonus. Monk's Belt qualifies for "movementspeed bonus from other magic items" and enables the 50% deflection against raged attack of the ring (including magical attack with a to hit roll!)

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LVL 20 WBL = 686,400g spent from 760,000g

Build A can take either one of the following optional:

Crystal Mask of Insight ontop of your other Mask: + 1.5x20,000g = 30,000g
+9/+9 to spot and listen is a big bonus on your perception skills.

or

Codex Advocare (Hideous Blow or Call of the Wild): 20,000g
Hideous Blow is ideal for prebuffing for your initial (charge) attack. Besides from that it's pretty nonflexible until epic where you can feat it for AoO.
Call of the Wild gives your Wild Empathy and Speak with Animals at will, which would fit the theme and can be handy in certain campaigns. You don't need both of em, but they can still be handy. Pick one if you like
[B]


Build B has requires (!) a Ring of Evasion (bought@ lvl 11 und upgraded later with the regular ring options on top of it.):

Ring of Evasion: 25,000g (base for lvl 11), combine with "Ring of Darkhidden & Chameleon Power", the Chameleon Power gets the 1.5 multiplier which totals to 56,350g. (= +31,350g to the WBL of the base magic item build)

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2 emergency Contingent Spells: (for both builds)


Body outside Body 15th = 10,500g (activation on command word)
Sometimes predators hunt in packs ;) When you get highly outnumbered or have to fight a really difficult target, you can rely on this.

Resurrection = 19,100g (activation on death)
(Ring of the) nine lifes ain't enough, huh? yeah, we definitively need a 10th Life! Cause Malar demands/grants it for his best predators!^^

Combat Stats & Tactics:

Beast Strike unarmed dmg = unarmed + Eldritch Claws = 2xunarmed + Eldritch Blast
= 2x(2d10) + 6d6

Sizing to colossal: (Necklace of Natural Attacks + Sizing)
24d8 +6d6

Headless Pounce every turn:
Stagger (from Drunken Master) lets you freely change directions as many times as you wish, while charging. In fact you could run back and forth, or make a looping for a diving pounce. Thx due to Shock Troopers Headless Charge, you can pounce for the full +15 bonus without worrying about missing your enemies. If staying close combat is to risky (low AC due to Headless Charge) , swift teleport to safer distances (in the air/behind cover).

Spoiler: max dmg (+15 PA & colossal Size) calculation for diving pounce:

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max dmg (+15 PA & colossal Size) calculation for diving pounce:
= (24d8 + 6d6 + Str + PA +5 magic weapon + Leading the Charge) x4 (Diving Attack, Valorous, Sandals of the Tiger's Leap)
= 96d8 + 24d6 + 4x(Str + PA + 5 mw + 10 LtC)
= 96d8 + 24d6 + 4x(11 + 15 + 5 + 10)
= 96d8 + 24d6 + 164
min. rolls = 96 + 24 + 164
min. rolls = 284 dmg
~rolls = 96x4.5 + 24x3.5 +164
~rolls = 432 + 84 +164
~rolls = ~680 dmg
max. rolls = 768 + 144 +164
max. rolls = 1076 dmg

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BAB (fractional): +16

regular Full Attack: +32/+27/+22/+17

Flurry and Feral Stance Full Attack: (+30)/+30/+30/+25/+20/+15 the (+30) is the extra bite attack.

Don't forget the +1 bonus to hit form above and maybe another +2 for invisibility depending on Cloak of Deception usage.

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Dive + Pounce + Whirlwind (3x/day): make a single attack as full-attack against all targets in reach. Only 3 times a day, but should be enough unless you are constantly fighting large packs/armies of enemies.

Impale (3x/day) + Cloak of Deception: 3 times per day you can ignore most types of armor bonuses (only size & deflection left IIRC).

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Maneuvers (3 of 4 readied/encounter):

Cloak of Deception helps to deny your foes Dex mod and prevents some defenses (like setting up a weapon against a charger). Further you can abuse it as alternative to hide before your turn (and Greater Invisibility) ends.

Wall of Blades is a nice counter to parry an attack if someone caught you somehow off-guard.

Iron Heart Surge,because it's just so stupidly strong to just say "NO!" to almost any effect or condition that could annoy you and last longer than 1 round. "You have birthday, entered a new age category and are subject to aging penalties" - "IHS says NO!" xD

White Raven Tactics because it's even stwronger than IHS. Talk to your DM about ruling, but even with home-brew nerfs (if you can't target yourself which I highly suggest^^) and without other maneuvers to combo with it, it's still powerful as hell. Further this is a perfect combo with Body outside Body (Continent Spell). Assuming that you aren't allowed (by your DMs homebrew ruling) to target yourself, you can still chain it with your BoB clones. While you stay at your regular initiative, the clones will dump each others Initiative for as many extra turns as possible. Next round (2) on your (regular) initiative, your original self starts the loop (and stays out of it again). uses WRT on one of the clones while they are refreshing their maneuvers. On the following round (3) your original self refreshes his maneuvers, while the clones use their WRT combo. ...

Feign Death (Build B only!)
Feign Death gives us some dirty options.
- observe a location without being noticed at all. Mindsight ability comes in handy here.
- play dead after attack in combat if someone somehow penetrated your defenses (with your teammates on your side) to shift enemy focus.
- when you are really dead and Resurrection kicks in, don't let the enemies know it. Prepare to use standard action to stand up + Cloak of Deception and retreat if things should get to risky.

Fly Speed

Fell Flight speed = ground speed (+ bonuses) + bonuses to fly speed.

Fell Flight can double dip movement-speed-bonuses that apply to all forms of movement.
Monk/FotF's bonus movement applies to all forms of movement ^^

Fell Flight Speed = base movement + 2x (monk + FotF movement-speed-bonus)
= 30 + 2x (50 + 10) ft
= 150ft fly speed

Kill the Strongest.. so that the weaklings have a change to beg for mercy..

With a fly speed of 150ft & Stagger you can pounce over a distance of 300ft (or dive + charge = 600ft !). This should be enough to bypass all mundane lowlife enemies in an encounter (with a single tumble DC15 roll from Stagger) and to just straight up go for the root of the problem (the leader/caster whatsoever). Again, don't bother with those who are not worth to be your preys. Malar demands that you only hunt the strong ones ;)

Nightmares Made Real

I know that many people don't like NMR or even think it's weak. But imho it's a really great tool. Why you ask?

- it's big, I mean really really big. (5 + Clvl) x 10ft. cubes (16 cubes at 20). Heck you could drop it on a small army troop. And it gets more ugly inside of corridors, where you can line the cubes up, to escape enemies or just slow em down, so you can fight em one by one.

- gives (only) you basically HIPS inside it: Full-Attack > hide > swift teleport. not many enemies will penetrate hide & concealment at the same time to locate your position.
- you don't need to push the DC for this build, cause even with succeeded save roll, the concealing effect stays!

- you need True Sight to see trough it. And even if your enemies have that, it doesn't stop NMR to enable HIPS for you. (this is not just RAW but imho RAI too, to clarify: the double layered vision someone with True Sight receives is still enough to fluke him when the caster of NMR is trying to hide)

- you get it in this setup as capstone at lvl 20. But if you like the idea, you can rearrange feats and class progression to get it at character lvl 15-16 in exchange of getting your combat abilities and maneuvers later. Besides, Ranger doesn't get it that much earlier and if you really need to compete with others, as said just rearrange the build and take it earlier.

Spoiler: Alignment changes & roleplay guide

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If you intend to play this (or a similar build) keep in mind that you need to either start at higher lvl (and solve the alignment issue via background story) or you have to roleplay the several states of your alignment change over the course of the early levels. But imho this can be a great fun and challenging.

"It's not hard to imagine that someone (monk) who is born with "Dark Gifts" (Warlock) will have a troublesome time trying to live a normal life under normal law. You tried to life a normal "lawful" life but others feared your powers and you got thrown out of the monk order.

Seeing how hard and harsh life outside of the order is, maybe again due to your dark gifts, you start to hate society and even yourself (change from lawful to neutral and finally chaotic). You start drinking and let your the alcohol fuel your anger and rage (Barbarian).
At a tavern fight one night, you meet a Drunken Master who acknowledged your growing skills, but thought you need some discipline to refine your skills and learn to treat the elder better. You followed the old mans teaching for a while.

Later you start to acknowledge yourself and your dark gifts that your are born with. You start to refine your combat skills with your personal powers (Enlightened Fist). You start to live in the wilderness and behave more and more like a predator. You hate moste "civilized humanoid" and their behavior against nature.

While you spend so many time in forests, you finally meet some Guardians of the Green. Their thinking and behavior fits your POV to good to be true. While you spent some time with them you realize your true nature and that your are chosen by Malar to be what you are: a predator. After a final test, the Guardians of the Green acknowledge you as "Fist of the Forest".
Your time with the Guardians of the Green did give you insight into your true nature as predator. And a true predator isn't a copycat of other predators. He has his own tactics (Mindbender for Mindsight) and maneuvers (Warblade) and so you refine your personal skills to perfection (bring Enlightened Fist to lvl9)."

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thx for reading the wall of text post up till here. I am open for any kind of feedback. If I missed anything important (rules, errata, whatsoever^^), pls let me know.

I hope you enjoyed the build/post as much as I did with constructing the build & typing the post. ;)

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edit1: edited the White Raven Tactics + Body outside Body combo. Forgot about the required swift action for both (WRT and maneuver refreshment). But still powerful to grant the clones an extra turn in round 1 and basically some bonus turns in the later rounds. Imho somewhat balanced.

edit2: added section about Fly Speed.

edit3:
- Added "Ring of Deflection" effect to one of the rings for base magic items.
- added 2nd Build Path (B) (lvls and optional/required items for both builds).
- build B makes use of monk ACF Feign Death. Added Feign Death combat option/tactic.
- minor changes for magic items: "Codex Advocare" moved to Build A optional
- Contingent Spells minor changes needed to make some gold free for other stuff.

edit4:
- corrected Fly Speed calculation
- added "Kill the Strongest" section

edit5:
- recalculated/corrected BAB (+15 > +16)

[Venger]

glad you had fun making this character. at a cursory glance, amend the pectoral of maneuverability, it will only help characters with wings, which fell flight doesn't give you. since you're buying a lot of gear, just go for a feathered wings graft and improve that. it'll free up another invocation so you can diversify your assets more. one idea is walk unseen. combine it with invisible fist to shore up your defenses if it ever gets dispelled, since it provides more use than evasion.

[Dagroth]

One problem...

Power Attack requires a BAB of +1. Can't get it if Monk is your first level. Put Barbarian as your first level and you're okay.

[Venger]

Power Attack requires a BAB of +1.

No it doesn't.

[Dagroth]

No it doesn't.

Huh... you're right. I just thought it would since it's absolutely useless unless you have a positive BAB!

[Venger]

Huh... you're right. I just thought it would since it's absolutely useless unless you have a positive BAB!

while it won't help you to take it at 1 with a 0 bab, there's no reason they should block you, since oftentimes in this game, you need to pay your feat taxes at specific times and in specific orders to qualify for everything, so it might end up kicked down to 1.

obviously Dagroth is right and you shouldn't take PA at 1 if your first level is monk and you actually use this character in a game that starts at level 1 (which again, few do, so it won't matter too much if you were to start at a higher level)

you were probably thinking of weapon finesse, which inexcusably has a prereq of ba 1 so rogues can't take it right away.

[Gruftzwerg]

glad you had fun making this character. at a cursory glance, amend the pectoral of maneuverability, it will only help characters with wings, which fell flight doesn't give you. since you're buying a lot of gear, just go for a feathered wings graft and improve that. it'll free up another invocation so you can diversify your assets more. one idea is walk unseen. combine it with invisible fist to shore up your defenses if it ever gets dispelled, since it provides more use than evasion.

The invoker sprouts a streaming winglike cape of shadows. You fly with Good maneuverability at a speed equal to your landspeed for 24 hours.

I thought "winglike cape" would be enough to qualify, but I can see how a DM could still deny it.
I'll look into the graft and the invisible fist and see if I can make use of em. Ty for suggestions.

One problem...

Power Attack requires a BAB of +1. Can't get it if Monk is your first level. Put Barbarian as your first level and you're okay.

You are thinking of Weapon Finesse. Imho the biggest design fail in the core book. It's supposed to help those classes who don't have full BaB to dump Str and go for Dex. The downside is that those classes have to live/survive till lvl 3 to get WF. Which can be a real pain sometimes.

Reason why Power Attack @lvl 1:
The feats in the early lvls are almost set in stone due to prerequisites of other feats that come later (and can't be take earlier).
Sole exception would be to exchange it with Imp. Bull Rush which is on lvl 3 atm. Imho not the big difference.
I wanted to have access to Eldritch Claws & Beast Strike asap. My first attempt was to start with warlock 3 and than go to monk 2, take Eldritch Claws at lvl 3 and PA at lvl 6 and some other changes. But I realized I would loose to much skillpoints with first lvl warlock. So I ended up with a monk 2 / warlock 3 start delaying Eldritch Claws on lvl 6. As far as I can see, there isn't any other place left for PA than lvl 1 or 3.

Thx all for your replies so far. Any further thoughts?

edit: I have looked into the Invisible Fist ACF. It's really great and makes me jealous and all, but the downside is I can't trade "evasion" away. It's an odd requirement for Drunken Master.. and I can't think of any other way to squeeze it into the build :(

[thoroughlyS]

Beast Strike unarmed dmg = unarmed + Eldritch Claws = 2xunarmed + Eldritch Blast
= 2x(2d10) + 6d6

Sizing to colossal:
24d8 +6d6

Where are you getting the base 2d10 damage from? Looking at your build, you get 11th level monk unarmed damage (1d10) from Monk + Enlightened Fist, which then gets bumped up to 2d6 by Fist of the Forest.

[Gruftzwerg]

Where are you getting the base 2d10 damage from? Looking at your build, you get 11th level monk unarmed damage (1d10) from Monk + Enlightened Fist, which then gets bumped up to 2d6 by Fist of the Forest.

you missed the monk's belt (+5 to monks lvl for unarmed, movement, AC)

11 + 5 = 16
16 is one step before 20, and Fist of the Forest does increase a step for monks.

[thoroughlyS]

you missed the monk's belt (+5 to monks lvl for unarmed, movement, AC)

Yep, that makes sense.

Headless Pounce every turn:
Stagger from Drunken Master lets you freely change directions while charging as many times as you whish. In fact you could run back and forth, or make a looping for a diving pounce. Thx due to Shock Troopers Headless Charge, you can pounce for the full +15 bonus without worrying about missing your enemies. If staying close combat is to risky (low AC due to Headless Charge) , swift teleport to safer distances (in the air/behind cover).

The parsing (and spelling) of this sentence is not great. The first couple of times I read it, I thought you were saying Stagger let you charge "as many times as you wish", and I kept re-reading that ability to see where it said you could charge more than once. It would be better to say:

Stagger (from Drunken Master) lets you freely change directions as many times as you wish, while charging.

More on topic, is Drunken Master entirely necessary? For 2 skill points you can get the Twisted Charge skill trick (Complete Scoundrel p.90), which let's you make one turn during a charge. Normally, that's all you really need, especially with an 80 ft base land speed (doubled on a charge). Heck, dropping Drunken master gives you back a feat, which can be spent towards getting Fleet of Foot (Complete Warrior p.99), which let's you change direction every round (skill tricks are once per encounter). Doing this let's you pick up Barbarian 2 and Warblade 2, which nets you Improved Uncanny Dodge and another maneuver known. And now that you don't need Evasion, you can trade it away for Invisible Fist (Exemplars of Evil p.21) which let's you go invisible every 4 rounds. The wording of the ability doesn't mention the spell, so you may be able to attack and retain this benefit (ask your DM). Fun Fact: This is the third build this week where I've suggested that ACF. Monks are very popular right now.

[Gruftzwerg]

I edited WRT + Body outside Body combo due to a lil bug.

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Further I looked at the suggested "Feather Wing" graft. But due to it's fiendish drawbacks (every day dc 15 save or do an evil act > soon evil alignment) I would rather pass on this option.

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btw, has the Complete Warrior restriction regarding PRC and "losing requirements" = "loosing access to PRC features" ever been errataed or addressed somehow? The first time I find myself as a victim of this obscure rule..

But maybe the risks and the consequences aren't that great as I imagine.

Atm. I am still thinking to get access to the Invisible Fist ACF. But as said I need evasion to have access to Drunken Master. I could use a ring of evasion to accomplish that, but dunno if it's worth the risk or not. After all I could lose access to "Stagger" in an AMF which would deny my regular combat strategy... ?!?

edit:
@Jsketchy
I changed the sentence as you suggested. TY for pointing it out. English is after all my 3rd langue and I still need improvement. ^^

I dislike "Twisted Charge" cause IIRC you can only use it once per encounter, which is far to limiting imho. Fights can take longer than 2 rounds, especially in larger scale battles.

edit2: Fleet of Foot is also to limiting due to the 90° rule. If I intend to attack the same target again, I would need a 180° turn which FoF doesn't allow me to do.

edit 3: While Uncanny Dodge ain't bad (but partially covered by "+1 Warning"), Improved UD is definitely useless imho if you can't stack enough relevant class lvls to back it up. Just to deny flanking bonus ain't enough to justify it. While nice to have, I doubt I can afford it without any other major loses/drawbacks.

[Gruftzwerg]

edit2: added section about Fly Speed.

edit3:
- Added "Ring of Deflection" effect to one of the rings for base magic items.
- added 2nd Build Path (B) (lvls and optional/required items for both builds).
- build B makes use of monk ACF Feign Death. Added Feign Death combat option/tactic.
- "Codex Advocare" moved to Build A optional
- Contingent Spells minor changes needed to make some gold free for other stuff.

I further worked a bit on the build(s) and have implemented a 2nd build path that makes use of Feign Death (sry, no invisible blade). Imho the ability fits very well into the build and concept and gives some dirty lil tricks at hand.

What's your thoughts on the changes and the alternate build path?

[SirNibbles]

More on topic, is Drunken Master entirely necessary? For 2 skill points you can get the Twisted Charge skill trick (Complete Scoundrel p.90), which let's you make one turn during a charge. Normally, that's all you really need, especially with an 80 ft base land speed (doubled on a charge).

"Unless otherwise noted, a skill trick can be performed only once per encounter (or once per minute, for scenes that don’t involve combat or other conflict). This restriction sets skill tricks apart from feats and class features, which are often repeatable." - Complete Scoundrel, page 84

[Gruftzwerg]

"Unless otherwise noted, a skill trick can be performed only once per encounter (or once per minute, for scenes that don’t involve combat or other conflict). This restriction sets skill tricks apart from feats and class features, which are often repeatable." - Complete Scoundrel, page 84

Yeah I already covered that up. It seems Drunken Masters "Stagger" ability is (almost) unique. At least I can't find any "real" replacement. Only other option that comes into my mind would be the "Bounding Assault"-maneuver (not the feat!). But to get that working every round, you have to go either Idiot Crusader or Crusader for Dummies, which is a high lvl investment that this build has no room for.

So I guess I am stuck with Stagger.

I would patriciate any comments on the build(s), especially what you think of the "Feign Death" ACF variant build (B).
And what are your thoughts on the fact that build B's Stagger ability is dependent on a "Ring of Evasion" to be access-/usable? Do you think the risk (of losing Stagger in AMF) is worth the payoff (ACF: Feign Death)?

On a sidenote: Did ever anyone played with the Complete Warrior PRC requirement limitation?^^ (that you lose access to your PRC/abilities if you don't meet the requirements anymore. and yeah, Drunken Master is in "that" book..)

[Venger]

Yeah I already covered that up. It seems Drunken Masters "Stagger" ability is (almost) unique. At least I can't find any "real" replacement. Only other option that comes into my mind would be the "Bounding Assault"-maneuver (not the feat!). But to get that working every round, you have to go either Idiot Crusader or Crusader for Dummies, which is a high lvl investment that this build has no room for.

So I guess I am stuck with Stagger.

I would patriciate any comments on the build(s), especially what you think of the "Feign Death" ACF variant build (B).
And what are your thoughts on the fact that build B's Stagger ability is dependent on a "Ring of Evasion" to be access-/usable? Do you think the risk (of losing Stagger in AMF) is worth the payoff (ACF: Feign Death)?

On a sidenote: Did ever anyone played with the Complete Warrior PRC requirement limitation?^^ (that you lose access to your PRC/abilities if you don't meet the requirements anymore. and yeah, Drunken Master is in "that" book..)

stagger is largely unique. while twisted charge allows you to change direction, it does nothing for aoos and is only 1/encounter.

feign death is useless. you should trade it for something else. popular choices include invisible fist, as I mentioned upthread, or if you don't like that, go for spell reflection to roundhouse kick away enemy rays.

I have never run this way because the rule doesn't make sense and contradicts how prcs work, such as dragon disciple and ur-priest. by taking the class, they would disqualify themselves. since cwar isn't the primary source on qualification for prcs, it can be safely ignored via RAW.

that said, some people are pro-cwar. I've played in one of their games. it opens up a lot of complicated doors, which like many houserules, disproportionately affect pcs. martials can be instantly incapacitated by a ray of enfeeblement even through mid levels by turning off power attack and breaking their feat chains. because martials really needed to be taken down a peg.

if you use this character in a game, ask your gm whether he is pro-cwar and adjust accordingly. in a vacuum, I wouldn't worry about it, since if you're in an amf, you'll be in trouble no matter what your deal is since mundanes rely heavily on equipment.

[Gruftzwerg]

stagger is largely unique. while twisted charge allows you to change direction, it does nothing for aoos and is only 1/encounter.

feign death is useless. you should trade it for something else. popular choices include invisible fist, as I mentioned upthread, or if you don't like that, go for spell reflection to roundhouse kick away enemy rays.

My thought on Invisible Fist was: I don't see many situation where I would rely on an "immediate action" invisibility. Clock of Deception already gives me greater Invisibility for my turn (as long as it's rdy, but Invisible Fist has also a 3 round CD IIRC).
I see more potential in "Feign Death". Correct me if I interpret it wrong.
- Imho you could drop dead after an attack that hit you. But you could also try to bluff (incl roll) and do it before you get hit for real and try to fluke you enemies.
- You see an arrow/projectile coming towards you? Drop dead and avoid.
- Your contingent spell Resurrection kicks in while the enemies are still there? Well, you still look/appear to be dead. Can be an important advantage.
- And observing a place becomes a pice of cake. Nothing should detect you. Not even Lifesightsense. (At least I can't think of anything asap).


thx on your opinion (and all your other input) on the C-Warrior prc issue =)
btw, where do I find the spell reflection ACF that you spoke of?

[Venger]

My thought on Invisible Fist was: I don't see many situation where I would rely on an "immediate action" invisibility. Clock of Deception already gives me greater Invisibility for my turn (as long as it's rdy, but IF has also a 3 round CD IIRC).

the situations where 1 round invisibility as an immediate action are useful are too numerous to mention.

if you're familiar with the abrupt jaunt ability, the situations are largely the same. when you are targeted by an enemy attack, you can flip on invisible fist and force him to deal with the miss chance.

invisible fist does have a 3 round cooldown, but it could be used alternatingly with cloak of deception keeping you invisible essentially all the time.

the primary utility of it is that as an immediate, it's usable when it isn't your turn, which cloak of deception, as a swift, is not.

I see more potential in "Feign Death". Correct me if I interpret it wrong.
- Imho you could drop dead after an attack that hit you. But you could also try to bluff (incl roll) and do it before you get hit for real and try to fluke you enemies.
- You see an arrow/projectile coming towards you? Drop dead and avoid.
- Your contingent spell Resurrection kicks in while the enemies are still there? Well, you still look/appear to be dead. Can be an important advantage.
- And observing a place becomes a pice of cake. Nothing should detect you. Not even Lifesight. (At least I can't think of anything asap).

1) you could, but why would your enemy not just cdg you when you dropped? there is no bluff check involved with feign death. the listed way to trump it is with a heal check
2) feign death technically does not cause you to drop prone, so this wouldn't work
3) your inability to see while playing possum puts a bit of a wrench in this aspect of it.
4) I don't know of any ability called lifesight. status and deathwatch are explicitly blocked, but the list is not exhaustive. while not specified, lifesense, which is useful for this kind of thing, I believe is also blocked.

but even assuming feign death does block all these forms of magic, it doesn't prevent enemies from just going over and beating you to death with a stick, or from nonintelligent enemies, such as dinosaurs from chewing you up and digesting you. feign death blocks your sense of touch, so you may not know this is happening until it's too late.

even assuming your gm is really nice and doesn't have enemies come to finish you off while you play possum, while you're doing this, you're not contributing usefully to combat and helping kill enemies and can't take any actions. it doesn't let you actually do anything like invisible fist and spell reflection do.

spell reflection is on page 35 of complete mage.

[Gruftzwerg]

@ Venger
I was lifesense, I corrected the post. Ty for pointing it out. I stepped last night over "Googles of Lifesight" (not that what you hope for despite it's name :/ ) and I guess I twisted that somehow^^.

Yeah I get your arguments regarding Invisible Fists uses.

The situation I tried to described with Feign Death was, first you need you team to back you up for this. Otherwise the enemy will just use an action for a cdg, I know.
But imho, if you use Feign Death in a fight, the enemy needs a reason to believe you, when you drop yourself and play dead possum. Either a hit, a bluffed hit or any other kind of acting like a hearth-attack or something like that. If you just drop before the attack it should be to obvious for the enemy. But if you could bluff your enemy into thinking you got hit critical/deadly, it should work better imho. A risky tactic sure and you should have your teammates at your side to accompany you. Once you have telepathy and mindsight, things should get easier.
The dropping prone part, while not pointed out as ability of Feign Death, is the naturally result of using the ability while standing (as immediate action).
For ranged attacks this is even safer. Imagine an ranged Ambush where you are aware of the ranged attack ("Warning" enchantment + Spot check). You could use the ability if your other defenses (50% misschance Ring of Deflection) should fail.

[Venger]

Yeah I get your arguments regarding Invisible Fists uses.

The situation I tried to described with Feign Death was, first you need you team to back you up for this. Otherwise the enemy will just use an action for a cdg, I know.
But imho, if you use Feign Death in a fight, the enemy needs a reason to believe you, when you drop yourself and play dead possum. Either a hit, a bluffed hit or any other kind of acting like a hearth-attack or something like that. If you just drop before the attack it should be to obvious for the enemy. But if you could bluff your enemy into thinking you got hit critical/deadly, it should work better imho. A risky tactic sure and you should have your teammates at your side to accompany you. Once you have telepathy and mindsight, things should get easier.
The dropping prone part, while not pointed out as ability of Feign Death, is the naturally result of using the ability while standing (as immediate action).
For ranged attacks this is even safer. Imagine an ranged Ambush where you are aware of the ranged attack ("Warning" enchantment + Spot check). You could use the ability if your other defenses (50% misschance Ring of Deflection) should fail.

A mechanic to act as though a failed attack was successful does not exist. Again, how does feigning death (if your teammates are still involved in the combat fighting enemies) help your team more than you actually fighting enemies?

Going prone is not something you can do without an action. dropping prone is a free action and cannot be used when it isn't your turn. while I know saying you keel over when you flip on feign death is rules as common sense dictates (RACSD) it's not actual RAW, so if you're planning to do this a lot, I'd ask your gm first.

even assuming all these conditions are met, are you anticipating needing to feign death more than one of the many other acfs that you can trade evasion for?

[Gruftzwerg]

A mechanic to act as though a failed attack was successful does not exist. Again, how does feigning death (if your teammates are still involved in the combat fighting enemies) help your team more than you actually fighting enemies?

When you are afraid that it might take you complete out, was my thought.

Going prone is not something you can do without an action. dropping prone is a free action and cannot be used when it isn't your turn. while I know saying you keel over when you flip on feign death is rules as common sense dictates (RACSD) it's not actual RAW, so if you're planning to do this a lot, I'd ask your gm first.

I know that under "normal circumstances" going prone requires an action that can be only done in your own turn. But explain me how you are otherwise suposed to:

As an immediate action, you can enter a cata-
tonic state in which you appear to be dead.

How are you going to appear dead to others (that might be in line before it's your next turn) while standing around? "Standing shocked till you fall like a rock when it's your turn to do so, like in a Hollywood film, doesn't count as "appears dead to others" if you ask me. It's more someone "dying" and not "dead". As said, I'm still convinced that FD as immediate action gives you free prone. It's not like you're beheaded and need a second to fall over (obvious dead) compared to someone standing obviously not dead wounded, that looks like he might fall over (not obvious appearing to be dead).
FD has to have involve some kind of acting to work as Immediate Action. While not mentioned it's part of appearing dead as immediate action. Imho if there is a believable reason (got really hit), you don't need a buff roll (cause, not mentioned that it's needed in the ability). But if there is no real reason at hand (didn't got hit, because you used it before you got hit), you need to fluke it with a buff roll (that you got hit or a hearth-attack, whatsoever).
As stated, there is no way that someone with his head on his shoulders and standing appears to be dead, maybe dying, but not dead.

even assuming all these conditions are met, are you anticipating needing to feign death more than one of the many other acfs that you can trade evasion for?

ty for the link. I'll have a look and see what will come out =)

[thoroughlyS]

btw, has the Complete Warrior restriction regarding PRC and "losing requirements" = "loosing access to PRC features" ever been errataed or addressed somehow? The first time I find myself as a victim of this obscure rule..

It has never been errata'd, so I'm assuming it still WotC's official stance. I also don't really mind that rule too much. If you really think it'll hurt you, ask your DM if they will ignore it.

I dislike "Twisted Charge" cause IIRC you can only use it once per encounter, which is far to limiting imho. Fights can take longer than 2 rounds, especially in larger scale battles.

"Unless otherwise noted, a skill trick can be performed only once per encounter (or once per minute, for scenes that don’t involve combat or other conflict). This restriction sets skill tricks apart from feats and class features, which are often repeatable." - Complete Scoundrel, page 84

I was aware of this limitation when I posted. Honestly, I feel that 1/encounter is basically all you need. Most ubercharger builds work fine without Twisted Charge (at least at my tables). Remember that after you charge someone, you are within melee range. On your next turn you just do a regular full attack. If they 5 ft. step away, you 5 ft step up to them. If they withdraw, you just charge them again (and pounce again).

edit2: Fleet of Foot is also to limiting due to the 90° rule. If I intend to attack the same target again, I would need a 180° turn which FoF doesn't allow me to do.

I don't see any situation in which you end up needing to do a 180° in order to hit a target. When you charge, you end your movement in "the closest space from which you can attack the opponent". This applies on the ground and in the sky, unless you have the Flyby Attack feat, which I don't see in your build. Because Fell Flight grants (good) maneuverability you can hover in place without the feat, and you can turn in place (before charging) for a minor speed reduction. If you're on the ground, spinning in place doesn't even require movement.

edit 3: While Uncanny Dodge ain't bad (but partially covered by "+1 Warning"), Improved UD is definitely useless imho if you can't stack enough relevant class lvls to back it up. Just to deny flanking bonus ain't enough to justify it. While nice to have, I doubt I can afford it without any other major loses/drawbacks.

You can always trade those away for more appropriate ACFs. The Horse Totem Barbarian even trades away Uncanny Doge for Run, which qualifies you for Fleet of Foot. Or finish up Fist of the Forest so you can use Feral Trance 2/day.

Clock of Deception already gives me greater Invisibility for my turn (as long as it's rdy, but IF has also a 3 round CD IIRC).

You are making two important mistakes here. Firstly, Cloak of Deception only gives you greater invisibility until the end of your turn. Invisible Fist lasts 1 round, which means it ends at the beginning of your next turn. Secondly, Cloak of Deception does not automatically refresh. It is a maneuver. The way those work is that you begin with some maneuvers "ready" to use. When you use them, they become "expended" and can't be used again until you "recover" them. As a warblade:

You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.

This means that you could use Cloak of Deception every other turn, but you would be wasting the in-between turn to make one attack (or do nothing).

[Gruftzwerg]

I was aware of this limitation when I posted. Honestly, I feel that 1/encounter is basically all you need. Most ubercharger builds work fine without Twisted Charge (at least at my tables). Remember that after you charge someone, you are within melee range. On your next turn you just do a regular full attack. If they 5 ft. step away, you 5 ft step up to them. If they withdraw, you just charge them again (and pounce again).

I don't see any situation in which you end up needing to do a 180° in order to hit a target. When you charge, you end your movement in "the closest space from which you can attack the opponent". This applies on the ground and in the sky, unless you have the Flyby Attack feat, which I don't see in your build. Because Fell Flight grants (good) maneuverability you can hover in place without the feat, and you can turn in place (before charging) for a minor speed reduction. If you're on the ground, spinning in place doesn't even require movement.

My intention is to pounce (+ dive if possible due to height e.g. indoors) every (!) turn. Under normal conditions you can't charge every turn. You need to give charge movement more flexibility for that. And if I intend to attack the same target (or anything else in 5ft range), I need "Stagger". I said, the intention was a looping to pounce + dive for max charge multipliers. This way, the charge build changes from "only start of fight + some opportunities for high dmg" to "every turn high dmg". That's the point of the build actually. =) The other abilites (like Fleet or Foot) don't give you this flexibility.

You are making two important mistakes here. Firstly, Cloak of Deception only gives you greater invisibility until the end of your turn. Invisible Fist lasts 1 round, which means it ends at the beginning of your next turn. Secondly, Cloak of Deception does not automatically refresh. It is a maneuver. The way those work is that you begin with some maneuvers "ready" to use. When you use them, they become "expended" and can't be used again until you "recover" them. As a warblade:

This means that you could use Cloak of Deception every other turn, but you would be wasting the in-between turn to make one attack (or do nothing).

I know that I can't use CoD every turn and need to refresh it. But Invisible Blade also has a 3 round cool down. Other than chaining both abilities and the misschance (that the build can get out of other abilities/items), I don't see much use. CoD ends on my turn, but I can still hide while it's my turn. So, beside from the immediate action activation and chaining, there is not so much about it.
While Feign Death can be useful out of fights as mentioned. Maybe add a ring effect that you don't need to eat & drink & you can play forever possum (lol). Maybe it's just wish thinking and my imagination of a few cool rp scenarios. I'll further think about exchanging it and look for replacement options. But for today it's to late to start the theorycrafting for me I guess (getting late here and I feel I lose concentration^^). That's a job for morning (I hope I have the time).

[thoroughlyS]

My intention is to pounce (+ dive if possible due to height e.g. indoors) every (!) turn.

...

That's the point of the build actually.

If that's the idea you were going for, then I see why you would want Stagger. In my experience, chargers are usually able to get a charge off every round anyway (assuming they have mobility support e.g. flight), but I can see the appeal of the guarantee.

I know that I can't use CoD every turn and need to refresh it.

I totally misread your comment the first time. I thought you were saying

Clock of Deception already gives me greater Invisibility for my turn (as long as it's rdy, but IT has also a 3 round CD IIRC).

i didn't realize you were referring to Invisible Fist as IF, I thought it was just a typo. My mistake.

[Gruftzwerg]

If that's the idea you were going for, then I see why you would want Stagger. In my experience, chargers are usually able to get a charge off every round anyway (assuming they have mobility support e.g. flight), but I can see the appeal of the guarantee.

I totally misread your comment the first time. I thought you were saying

i didn't realize you were referring to Invisible Fist as IF, I thought it was just a typo. My mistake.

I changed the IF to Invisible Fist to prevent further misreading.

Yeah, guaranteed charge every turn is very important in this build. In my experience as charger, normally you get stuck in melee once and you barely get another charge(for the ranged camp). Not every fight has multiple camps (4+) to guarantee charge every round. Therefor Stagger is very strong imho for this build. After all, we are talking about a x4 modifier for the entire diving-pounce dmg here (and not only the PA part).

And if you further take the 150ft fly speed into account (= 300ft pounce range), Stagger can bring you directly to the BBEG, bypassing all trash enemies with a single tumble DC 15 roll (and provoke no AoO).

Why kill the henchman? They aren't worth to be your preys. You're (almost) unstoppable. Kill the BBEG first to drop their moral and convince em to beg for mercy! Cause your deity (Malar) demands that you only fight the strong and not those weaklings! ^^

[Mike Miller]

I'm aware this is a bit of a necro thread, but I am interested in this build and had a couple questions that don't seem to be answered within the build. What race is this assuming? It looks like human, but not necessarily. Also, how are you reaching colossal size?

[Remuko]

I'm aware this is a bit of a necro thread, but I am interested in this build and had a couple questions that don't seem to be answered within the build. What race is this assuming? It looks like human, but not necessarily. Also, how are you reaching colossal size?

Necklace of Natural Attacks in the magic item section it says what enchantments hes using it for. One is sizing which lets you alter a weapons size catergory to any size you want and since natural attacks are always a light weapon to you, a monk with a colossal fist is still a light weapon

[Gruftzwerg]

I'm aware this is a bit of a necro thread, but I am interested in this build and had a couple questions that don't seem to be answered within the build. What race is this assuming? It looks like human, but not necessarily. Also, how are you reaching colossal size?

sry, if you missed the infos. It seems I have hidden them^^.

It's a human (see human bonus feat) and as Remuko said, it's the Sizing enchantment on the Necklace of Natural Attacks to get colossal size unarmed strikes (btw: -8 to Hit).

I'll edit the main post to make it more visible/obvious.

If you have any other questions, I'll be glad to explain/answer em.

[skyllexw]

hi, i know i'm a few years late for joining the party and i don't know if you're gonna see this after all these years but well, i'm trying to put this build to work and i got really lost on the math

my group is starting at lvl 8 with 33k of gold (yes the DM gave us this cheese), so... following this build strictly, could you show me how my damage would be at this point without the items?
also what items you would recommend buying first?

please explain it to me as if i was a 5 years old kid lol

[Gruftzwerg]

hi, i know i'm a few years late for joining the party and i don't know if you're gonna see this after all these years but well, i'm trying to put this build to work and i got really lost on the math

my group is starting at lvl 8 with 33k of gold (yes the DM gave us this cheese), so... following this build strictly, could you show me how my damage would be at this point without the items?
also what items you would recommend buying first?

please explain it to me as if i was a 5 years old kid lol

Since you seem to be new on the boards, as lil friendly reminder:
I hope you asked a moderator for permission to revive this old thread, since that is a forum rule for threads older than 3 months than the last post in it.
Alternatively you can also use Private Messages or just make a new thread linking to the older thread.


and btw, welcome to the boards
_______________

To your questions:

At lvl 8 you have the Unarmed Strike (US) of a 2nd lvl monk and the Eldritch Blast (EB) of a 3rd lvl warlock.

You have access to Eldritch Claws which gives you your EB dmg ontop of your US dmg. You get 2 attacks at full BAB due to being claw attacks. (1d6 + 2d6 = 3d6 at the moment for each claw)

Since you also unlock the Stagger ability at lvl 8, this means that you can now charge every turn. Thus your gear should be already focusing charge multipliers:
- a +1 weapon with "Valorous" enhancement (adds another +1 to the price) = ~8k
- "Sandals of the Tiger's Leap" gives you another charge multiplier for 3,5k

So you are already looking at a whopping x3 damage multiplier each turn.

This mean at the moment you could pounce for 2 attacks each dealing:
= 3x (3d6+STR+other bonuses like the enhancement bonus of the weapon..)


If you want to invest even more early on into dmg, add the "Sizing" enhancement to get bigger damage dice for taking a to hit penalty. Note that this is sole effective against low AC targets since your attack bonus ain't that good at this moment. So it might be a better idea to invest into more pure +X enhancement bonus first if you want to invest more.

[truemane]

Metamagic Mod: Thread Necromancy.