The Kingdom of Gnolls - Help Requested

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Not sure where to begin, and hoping this is the right forum... I'm a long-time fan of Gnolls. I really think that they get a bum deal in D&D, and the changeover from the lore presented in 4th edition's excellent "Playing Gnolls" to the extremely flanderized take presented in 5e's Volo's Guide... didn't sit very well.

As part of a thread talking about gnolls on 4chan, I presented my own take on how I'd do gnolls in a setting without making them little better than fuzzy zombies:

Gnolls reign over their own empire in the "not!Africa" region; a tropical and arid land of savannahs and open scrubland. Their "hat" is "Decadent But Dangerous Easterners"; their empire is built on a combination of martial skill and trade in luxuries (fine metal work, gems, drugs, black magic).

The gnolls worship a pantheon of "dark gods", somewhere between demon princes who've chilled out on the whole "destroy everything" rhetoric and lesser gods. Chief of the pack is Lamashtu, who fits the "Dark Mother" godly archetype - wicked and lusty chief goddess with powers over nature and fertility. The lesser gods in the pantheon are focused on roles such as war, various forms of hedonism (gluttony, carnality, drug-use, fine art, excess decoration), and magic.

Driving philosophy of the gnolls is hedonism: the purpose of life is to seek pleasure and indulge yourself. They lean strongly as a race towards Chaotic Neutral; self-centered, impulsive and lazy, but not inherently hostile towards other races as a matter of default. A typical gnoll wants to throw parties where she can lounge around on silk divans wearing shiny jewelry whilst eating and drinking herself into a stupor, not destroy cities and eat live babies.

Technically, gnolls are matriarchal, as the females are bigger and stronger than the males and claim this represents the nature/blessing of Lamashtu herself. In practice, the prevalance of necromantic talents amongst the males means that many males exert open political power, as the empire depends on them to run things.

See, the empire's workforce is built on necromancy on a massive scale. Armies of skeletons, bone golems and other skeletal undead form the grunt labor that keeps the empire running by doing all the boring task.

The empire also makes heavy use of conventional slavery. As such slaves are required to do tasks that require independent thought and finesse, however, they are not as oppressed and downtrodden as they might be. A living slave is a valuable piece of property and treated as such. It's even possible for a slave to win freedom through loyalty and skill.

With none of the traditional constraints on drugs, alchemy or magic, the gnoll empire is a hotbed of black market trade and a veritable mecca for necromancers, warlocks and jaded hedonists.

Although its existence rankles many of the more hardline goodly faiths, the gnoll empire goes unchallenged because of its legitimate trade and because, so far, the other kingdoms have accepted it's better to have them content and lazy than roused to savage wars of vengeance; unlike hobgoblins, they're not particularly ambitious conquerors and so acts of aggression are comparatively rare.

Now, I didn't exactly get a lot of comments on this, but I really like this idea, and I'd like to flesh it out. But, I'm not exactly sure how to do so, and so I came here in hopes folk might be willing to talk

The biggest problem facing me is this: gnolls, by this lore, are quite religious. But, I'm not a hugely theology-focused person. I do have some thoughts on the pantheon as a whole, but coming up with gods has never really interested me, and I could seriously use somebody to talk to in order to bring them to life.

In general: the pantheon is female dominated, with more goddesses than gods. This reinforces the matriarchal status of the gnolls, as assimilated from spotted hyenas.

The Chief Goddess: A female deity who serves as the ruler and/or mother and/or lover (or both) of the other deities. Maybe make her a Lamashtu riff, with powers over nature & fertility, which is Lamashtu's portfolio (just twisted) in Pathfinder.

The War Goddess: This is either a gender-swapped expy of Yeenoghu, or else steals a little from Ishtar and is goddess of both war and love. Savage, primal, vicious; revel in the carnage and butcher those against you. If a Gnollish Ishtar, likewise encourages you to be fearless and passionate in love.

The Pleasure God/dess: Probably the closest thing to a straight-up "good" god in the gnoll pantheon. Gender-shifting party girl/boy, who encourages its followers to eat, drink and make merry. Hugely popular in the empire in its current stable position. Essentially a less grimdark Slaanesh in gnoll format.

The Hunting God: Oldest of the gods next to the Chief Goddess, probably her consort. A Gorellik-expy with a dash of Erathis, god of hunting, wisdom and virility. Has lost some prominence due to gnolls no longer being tribal hunter-gatherers, but still respected.

Gods of Magic: Not sure if there should be a single "God of Magic" figure, but gnolls in this empire would definitely favor AD&D's "Undead Master" kit, so there's certainly three specific mage-gods. God of Necromancy is the most powerful of the male gods in modern gnoll society, maybe a new consort and/or favored son of the Chief Goddess. Goddess of Conjuration is seen as the Queen of Fiends, summoning planar beings and forcing them to submit. God of Enchantment is an androgynous, whimsical creature, child of the Pleasure God.

God/dess of Chattel: Not sure if male or female suits this better; this'd be simultaneously the god of slavery and the god of agriculture, as the two practices are linked in gnollish eyes. Exhorts discipline and authority, but also not to abuse chattel. Stern, but not uncaring, really.

[redwizard007]

A couple thoughts:

1. CN doesn't really lend its self to empire building. Even CE would be a hell of a stretch, but doable with a strong enough leader. Would you consider Flinds with NE or even LE tendencies as a ruling class? Otherwise, a large territory of overlapping tribes might work better than an empire.

2. Demon worship generally falls solidly on the Evil side of things. Not saying CN can't worship CE gods, but on a large scale it seems unlikely.

I'll take another look at the rest of the post when time permits.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Firstly, I'm not a huge fan of alignment - I think it's one of the silliest mechanics to come out of D&D, and I really don't give too much care to what they're called. Make them Unaligned for all I care; the basic idea I want remains the same.

With that out of the way, I'm not averse to having Flinds around as an elite or ruler caste, but I do want them to be capable of ruling themselves as well.

For the second thing you raised, you've misunderstood what I said. When I compared them to demon princes, it was to emphasize the idea that these are dark-inclined gods, generally not accepted as legitimate deities in other lands, they're not actual demon princes in the sense of being Chaotic Evil fiends, do you follow me? The vast majority of these "dark gods" would themselves be Chaotic Neutral; not shining beacons of goodness by any stretch, but not out to cause suffering and misery like demon princes or evil gods.

[Weirdlet]

I'm guessing that the mother-goddess Lamashtu and the war-goddess are twin sisters, since a lot of hyenas are twin pups. Also, I think you need a trickster in there, maybe the party-god, who's littler than the other gods but laughs uproariously and embodies the nature of the ideal life- indulgent, hilarious, sometimes a little cruel but mostly after a good time. Said trickster also ends up putting silver in the tongues of merchants and traders, like Hermes.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Those are some pretty interesting suggestions; thank you for offering them up here.

[Bohandas]

CN doesn't really lend its self to empire building.

Possibly to empire having though]

[Bohandas]

What was the question again, specifically?

[WaerXO]

Research a little on Genghis Khan and base the beginning of the Empire on his. The current empire could be more like the world of his grandson Kublai Khan. With the Empire fragmenting into khan ates where his cousins ruled. While Kublai enjoyed his pleasure dome.

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Alright, so, I took advantage of the last Gnoll thread on /tg/ to pursue some help in getting my proto-pantheon fleshed out, and I wanted to copy-past the useful stuff from that thread to here in order to preserve it.

My Work:
"Ishtar-Gnoll"
Goddess of Love & War
Portfolio: Passion, Violence, Battle, Romance, Love, Sex, Hate
Domains: War, Love(?), Glory(?)
Worshippers: Mercenaries, Prostitutes, Lovers, Vendetta-Seekers, Battledancers, Swashbucklers
Symbol: Stylized heart with its top-half in flames, dripping blood
Creed:
* Let your heart guide you. for passion holds the key to truth.
* If you want something, then fight for it.
* The weak submit, the strong strive; show the former scorn, the latter respect.

"Lash"
God of Chattel
Portfolio: Agriculture, Craft, Obedience, Domination, Slavery, Honor, Pack, Family, Law
Domains: Forge, Bindings(?)
Worshippers: Business Owners, Taskmasters, Slaves, Guardians, Gaolers
Symbol: Skull-weighted whip curved as if in mid-strike
Creed:
* Fill Thy Role: You have a duty to perform, so fulfill it to the best of your capability.
* Honor The High And The Low: Strength of all kinds should be acknowledged, whether it is the warrior's or the worker's.
* A Broken Tool Spites Only Its Owner: Do not abuse those who toil under you, for their labors support you.

Hmm... how does this look as the seed for a creation myth?

In The Beginning, there were two gods; Grandmother and Grandfather. Grandmother was fierce and strong, a savage hunter who prowled the young earth, killing and eating whatever she deigned to track, gorging until her belly was full and then playing with the remains. Grandfather was wise and gentle, a calm god who sought only to care for his mate. He kept her safe and treated her wounds, and tried to keep her from danger. From their coupling was born The First Litter, the eldest of the Gods who watch over the gnolls today.

The First Litter followed Grandmother and Grandfather, until the day that, in her madness, Grandmother turned on Grandfather and ate him. The First Litter, aghast at their mother's behavior, drove her away into the wastelands beyond, where she still roams as a feral, savage monster. In honor of Grandfather, and Grandmother as she was, the First Litter created a people to embody the best of both their traits; the first Gnolls.

This is rudimentary, but I'm getting a very "pagan" feel from this pantheon, so lots of sex, violence and weirdness feels right to me. Plus, making gnolls metaphysically descendants of a giant, feral, divine hyena (sort of Gorellik & Yeenoghu's bastard daughter) and a more human-like god feels like it has potential.


Helpful Posts:

One thing you should attempt to consider to build your whole pantheon , is the "creation" myth.
Did the Chief goddess create everything or just the gnolls in this scenario? Who's the first born from her? Who she hates? Who -doesn't- hate her? Being gnolls, I'd imagine there could be plenty of backstabbing (frontstabbing?) and infighting.
Maybe these conflicts among deities are how the gnolls justify natural cataclysms or certain events. Even seasons. For example, Spring could be the pleasure's goddess' doing, and so on.

Furthermore, just throwing random thoughts:

Chief goddess: her personality is generally 'benevolent' towards her kin, but she's prone to backlashing and not getting **** from anyone. Combattive, will stand her ground whenever it's a combat or just a talk. She'll do anything to keep the "Alpha Bitch" position.

War Goddess: likely first daughter of the Chief one, she took a lot from her mother. Ends up infighting with her, but she actually finds huge respect towards her. She'll butcher anyone in the Chief's name. Or her own name. Or for Bob "you know the one from that little town that got that nice bakery" 's name. Even without a name as long there is a good excuse.

Pleasure goddess: lazy, to a fault. "Black sheep" of the family, avoids all the squabble and just is laid back and enjoys life.

Hunting God: Could be either the lover of the chief, or the War goddess' younger brother. Probably in competition with the war one. The hunting god, might not be as strong as the war one, but clearly is more sly and smarter.

God of magic: I was considering a Voodoo-like deity of magic in this case. Maybe a sort of witch doctor that is "secretly" considering to overtake the Chief goddess. But biding its time, as it knows that his physical power isn't great enough, but his arts are growing more powerful and tricky by the day. Necromancy of course is his big jig, but other arts are also involved.

>She'll butcher anyone in the Chief's name. Or her own name. Or for Bob "you know the one from that little town that got that nice bakery" 's name.

Sounds like the type to not only also to sleep around a lot, but also to fall in love a lot - and then do as you say she does. Intensely loyal to her family, to herself, and to whoever she's involved with at the moment, she will always come with an excuse to fight for their honor or pleasure.

Possibly a dual-goddess of war and love - true, legitimate love, not just lust and drug-fueled rutting.

To further expand on this: due to her influence, in gnoll culture, all war and most violence in general has its roots in love.

Which in turn leads to most fertility rites of the gnolls to double as combat rites and training.

this allows the important females of the tribe to stay out of combat but remain physically fit and able to defend their title from usurpers and the like

To most men and elves, as a general rule, the lords of Chaos are the great enemy, while the lords of Law stand as the good guys.

To gnolls it's the opposite.

To Gnolls, Chaos represents not mutation and destruction, but rather freedom and joy. To them Law is not peace and stability, but instead choking conformity and restrictions. This great enemy deity will represent this.

Regarding a Gnollish pantheon one must first consider the culture of gnolls since i assume the your gnolls are cultured (well most of them) their gods should be important ,not all consuming in their lives so as such their gods should take over small parts of their lives;

Their chief goddess rules over fertility and "love" as reproduction is important to the gnolls

Their goddess of war should be savage and bloodthirsty and revels in a good slaughter

their god of the hunt- animalistic and cunning he should rule over guile and skill may also embody survival and physical strength

their god/dess of magic should be a fickle god who delivers both power and punishment in equal vigor and should rule over
necromancy ,pyromancy ,and divination

there should also be a god of wealth but not sure how that would work

don't forget the god of the forge

[Bohandas]

There should be a goddess who rules over childbirth but also over either war, battlefield surgery, necromancy, or death. The birthing process for hyenas is difficult and dangerous even compared to human birth

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Do keep in mind that's only for spotted hyenas, due to their pseudopenii, and other hyenas have no such issues because they lack that organ. Even if the female gnolls are the bigger, culturally dominant sex here, I'm not exactly sold on giving them pseudopenii as well, which they'd need for your midwife goddess' concept to make the most sense...

[oldguy]

I love where you are going with this idea. So let me jump in with a few ideas to make it worse...

"Although its existence rankles many of the more hardline goodly faiths, the gnoll empire goes unchallenged because of its legitimate trade and because, so far, the other kingdoms have accepted it's better to have them content and lazy than roused to savage wars of vengeance; unlike hobgoblins, they're not particularly ambitious conquerors and so acts of aggression are comparatively rare."

If the Gnollands are a tropical and arid land of savannahs and open scrub land, perhaps the good peoples of the world tolerate them because they lack any real meaningful choice in the matter. The Gnollands may be open terrain, but the only meaningful access is to follow one of a few defined trade routes where oases or other sources of water are available. Sources of water that could be quickly spiked by the acolytes of the God of Magic should the Gnollands be threatened, and spiked in a way that clerics and/or mages attached to an invading army could not quickly or easily undo. Good luck getting your crusading army across hundreds of miles of arid scrub land without water.

It would also make the acolytes of the God of Magic irritatingly indispensable. Generations may pass without them ever being needed, but just in case...these puny ones must be tolerated. Maybe they can even recruit their acolytes from the male runts that ordinarily get left to die. Could give them a nice visual distinction.

Add to that some kind of tsetse fly-like creature to wreak havoc on the invaders' cavalry (perhaps also wielded by the God of Magic acolytes?), and I don't see that the good folk of the world will be able to do much. The cost/benefit simply favors letting the gnolls be.


"See, the empire's workforce is built on necromancy on a massive scale. Armies of skeletons, bone golems and other skeletal undead form the grunt labor that keeps the empire running by doing all the boring task."

Where do the gnolls get these armies of skeletons sitting out there in the open scrub lands and savannahs? Unless there was something there before them. Love the opportunity for some history there.


"The empire also makes heavy use of conventional slavery."

Where do they get these slaves? Something tells me they aren't successfully breeding them out there in the savannah. I can see slaves being something that the gnolls would trade for, but that leads to interesting questions about who trades slaves to the gnolls, and what do they get in return?


"It's even possible for a slave to win freedom through loyalty and skill."

I assume that a freed slave would still rate far below a gnoll runt and may be slain with impunity by any gnoll he offends. It just seems wrong otherwise.


" a large territory of overlapping tribes might work better than an empire"

I would agree. They fight among themselves incessantly, but band together when threatened. Plenty of examples from human history for this type of polity. It could also give the players more reason to be there. The players are hired to fight some in some internal squabble that the gnolls involved do not find interesting or pressing enough to rouse them from their pillows.


"Demon worship generally falls solidly on the Evil side of things. Not saying CN can't worship CE gods, but on a large scale it seems unlikely."

I like where you are going with your pantheon (and I am no fan of the alignment system either) but to use those terms for ease of reference, I would maintain that CE gods who are lazy are likely to end up with CN followers. Everybody wants hell on earth, but nobody wants to do the work to get it there.


Finally, I would think that one (or more) of the gods should have someway of driving these ordinarily apathetic gnolls into some kind of berserker-like frenzy (ritual? drugs?) when there is great need. Waves of frenzied gnoll warriors sweeping over an invading army dying of thirst at a poisoned oasis in the scrub lands paints a nice mental image.

Just my $.02. Keep up the great work. Eager to see where you go with this.

[Shamash]

Don't use the world "not!Africa", Africa is an entire continent.

[Bohandas]

Not sure where to begin, and hoping this is the right forum... I'm a long-time fan of Gnolls. I really think that they get a bum deal in D&D, and the changeover from the lore presented in 4th edition's excellent "Playing Gnolls" to the extremely flanderized take presented in 5e's Volo's Guide... didn't sit very well.

Personally I have to reccommend discarding all fluff/lore after the 3rd edition (as well as most planar lore after the second edition, including all planar information in the third and up editions of the Faerun and Dragonlance settings)

[Shadow_in_the_Mist]

Thank you for your comments, oldguy; some very good suggestions here, and I really do need to try and clear up time to sit down and go through them.

[Bohandas]

The War Goddess: This is either a gender-swapped expy of Yeenoghu, or else steals a little from Ishtar and is goddess of both war and love. Savage, primal, vicious; revel in the carnage and butcher those against you. If a Gnollish Ishtar, likewise encourages you to be fearless and passionate in love.

My headcanon is that Yeenoghu is female and being constantly misgendered is part of what fuels her insane rage

[Bothebreaker]

I am so glad to see another gnoll kingdom idea around, been working on my own (more of a contained chiefdom) for a long while and this warmed the hyena insides up.

[Klaatu B. Nikto]

Don't use the world "not!Africa", Africa is an entire continent.

Also an 80's song.

[oldguy]

Also an 80's song.

I bless the rains down in not!Africa?