The LA-assignment thread II: Where The Em Dash Doesn't Exist

[Tiri]

I do have to point out: the ability lasts for 15 rounds at the time, being based on ethereal jaunt. As a consequence, phase spiders do not sleep on the Ethereal, and they cannot cross under mountains without a cave to flit back in and out every 90 seconds. A phase spider could move 2400 feet in one jaunt while running - if you weren't moving at half speed, because of the ethereal plane. So it's a 1200' radius before you must re-enter the material.

The spider could just use the ability again while still ethereal, though, since the ability works just like the spell and nothing prevents the caster from recasting the spell while a first instance of the spell is still in effect.

[Thurbane]

Hang on, that's not right. Immediate actions didn't exist when the Monster Manual was written. Phase spiders can shift to the Ethereal plane as a move action, or (and this is the good bit) "during a move action". I'm thinking that means you can decide to shift at any point during a move action, which would allow you to avoid AoOs and catch any enemy off-guard, similar to greater invisibility, but with the ability to move through people, walls, and many spell effects. I would rule that you can shift only once per move action, but even then, it's a really solid way of getting standard action attacks (Tome of Battle synergy!) exactly where you need them. Downside: any round on which you go Ethereal costs you your full attack, and you move at half speed on the Ethereal plane.

You're correct, I was misreading the ability, I thought it was a free action to become ethereal.

Ethereal Jaunt (Su)
A phase spider can shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and shift back again as a move action (or during a move action). The ability is otherwise identical with ethereal jaunt (caster level 15th).

...still, I still think it's pretty useful. I'm standing by +2, when combined with the other aspects of the creature.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The spider could just use the ability again while still ethereal, though, since the ability works just like the spell and nothing prevents the caster from recasting the spell while a first instance of the spell is still in effect.

I don't think so. That would contradict "[...] shift from the Ethereal Plane to the Material Plane as a free action, and shift back again as a move action (or during a move action) [...]". Those limitations replace the original use of ethereal jaunt with two new uses (with new casting times). Once the spider is Ethereal, it cannot shift "back the the Ethereal Plane" as a move action. The only use of the ability that is still available is the free-action E>M shift.


@Thurbane: It's absolutely very useful on its own, but the question is: Can the spider bring real power to bear with its ethereal jaunt, or is it a generic single-attack melee brute with a gimmick?

Owlbears got LA +0. They are quite similar to phase spiders, having relative stat modifiers of +4 str/con and -4 dex/int, but sharing size, reach, type, and number of RHD. They also have two additional natural attacks and Improved Grab (and Scent, if anybody cares), as well as a slightly lower speed and no climb speed. I'm calling all that a wash - the spider is a little more versatile, the owlbear a little stronger. Fair enough, the spider - sans jaunt - gets LA +0.

Now, back to the question at hand. The spider can't really fight with that ethereal jaunt out of the box. You need to invest class levels, feats, magic items - maybe you can do some badass ethereal sniping once you have some Diamond Mind maneuvers in there (wait, can you afford Concentration ranks?), but at ECL 7, you're just not carrying your weight when a challenge does not involve literally not being there. I think ethereal jaunt is not worth LA +2 by itself, but we don't want to make it a free upgrade over the owlbear, so LA +1 is the place to be.

[Inevitability]

Phasm

For when rather than fight one monster, you want to fight all of them.

A phasm's base chassis is underwhelming, to say the least. 15 aberration HD, medium size, no stat boosts higher than +6, an insultingly bad natural attack, and speed equal to a human's.

The various racial traits help somewhat (Amorphous gives nice immunities, Resilient compensates for your weaker saves, and telepathy is telepathy, but the phasm would still be an easy -0 if it weren't for one single ability: Alternate Form.

The phasm's version of it allows it to turn into any creature as a standard action, as long as it's large or smaller. I honestly can't comprehend how something that can turn into an Infernal is a CR 7 monster, but apparently it is.

Finding any kind of comparison at all was hard enough, but in the end I settled on the Master of Many Forms. Barring gruesome abuse such as the above example, a 10th-level MoMF and phasm are both ECL 15 shapeshifters, with the MoMF being able to turn into larger creatures (including useful forms such as the hydra and kuo-toa leviathan) and getting extraordinary special qualities in addition to whatever benefit the first five levels of its build gave, while the phasm is unconstrained by type or HD amount.

Are the two completely equal in power? Definitely not: the difference in assumable forms will undoubtedly work in the favor of one or the other (probably the phasm). That said, I feel like the phasm and MoMF are on the same general power level: both are broken if abused and strong tier 1-2 characters if not.

With phasms being so similar to the (not necessarily unbalanced) MoMFs, I'll give them +0 LA.

Next are planetouched.

[Baby Gary]

any monster, hmmmm. I have heard about this think called an aleax, I need not say any more

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would assume that the ability does not remove HD restrictions on polymorph, although it definitely seems to lift type restrictions, so looking at it like that... shadow of the void form, anyone? 35 HD incorporeal undead

That said, I don't think 15 abberation HD allow you to do much besides Warshaper and an initiator level or two. Phasms will always be phasms first, and shapeshifting is all they do, even if they do it well. I could see LA +0, just because ECL 15 is so high. A phasm is on level with polymorph any object and shapechange*, which are totally broken, and in the same way as the phasm, so... don't allow the one, don't allow the other; if PAO isn't breaking your game, the same way you handle that will allow you to handle the phasm.


*Shapechange is ECL 17 of course, but phasms will most often see play in high-level games where shapechange is available. A focused build could have one ninth-level spell available by ECL 15, as well (for example, Ur-Priest, or Versatile Spellcaster tricks), and phasms are nothing if not focused on shapeshifting, so that comparison makes some sense.

[Nifft]

[CENTER]Phasm

EDIT: LA +0.

The phasm's version of it allows it to turn into any creature as a standard action, as long as it's large or smaller. I honestly can't comprehend how something that can turn into an Infernal is a CR 7 monster, but apparently it is.

The other abuse is that no-where does the Alternate Form place any LOWER limit on the creature.

Phasms are godly infiltration creatures.

Every dust mite on your face is a Phasm. Waiting...

[Baby Gary]

I would assume that the ability does not remove HD restrictions on polymorph, although it definitely seems to lift type restrictions, so looking at it like that... shadow of the void form, anyone? 35 HD incorporeal undead

That said, I don't think 15 abberation HD allow you to do much besides Warshaper and an initiator level or two. Phasms will always be phasms first, and shapeshifting is all they do, even if they do it well. I could see LA +0, just because ECL 15 is so high. A phasm is on level with polymorph any object and shapechange*, which is totally broken, and in the same way as the phasm, so... don't allow the one, don't allow the other; if PAO isn't breaking your game, the same way you handle that will allow you to handle the phasm.


*Shapechange is ECL 17 of course, but phasms will most often see play in high-level games where shapechange is available. A focused build could have one ninth-level spell available by ECL 15, as well (for example, Ur-Priest, or Versatile Spellcaster tricks), and phasms are nothing if not focused on shapeshifting, so that comparison makes some sense.

I agree with you, and I think you had some very good points. I think that it should be LA+0 or +1

[Celestia]

I'd say LA 0. The phasm is a one trick pony. It may be a very powerful trick, but it's not exactly unique, either. You can get shapeshifting in other places, especially at these levels. Sure, you can do some incredibly broken things with it, but this is a game plated by real people. Those stupidly broken things are only going to come up if the phasm player is an a hole, and we shouldn't be taking them into consideration.

[Zancloufer]

I'm going to vote for LA +0 or LA +6 depending on one thing. Whether or not it's alternate form is limited by it's total HD. If it can only turn into any creature that is Large or smaller and it's HD or less it is NICE, but no more than a slightly better version of Shapechange. It has one niche. While it's niche (taking on the physical form of ANYTHING) is nice, it doesn't gain the spell casting or metal boosts of it's new forms so it's not that OP.

If it can break the HD cap, well it can literally be ANYTHING AT WILL and that is definitely Epic level shenanigans.

[Thurbane]

This is an interesting/difficult one:

• Medium Aberration; 15 RHD (one of the suckiest RHD out there, too); Str +2, Dex +4, Con +4, Int +6, Wis +4, Cha +4: net +24 - normally I would say "wow, good mods", but at ECL 15+, underwhelming; +5 natural AC; 1 sad little natural attack; no special movement; with less RHD, this could be a decent chassis for pretty much anything, but at this level? Nope.
• Decent array of racial skills, but nothing to write home about - especially considering skillmonkey might possibly be one of your better paths; racial(ish) bonus on Disguise. Meh.
• Amorphous gives some good immunities, but you have to be in your natural form, which you really won't be doing most of the time; +4 racial bonus to Fort and Ref saves: nice, but not amazing; Tremorsense: useful; Alternate Form: and this is the Phasms only noteworthy feature. It is very good ability - arguably, as good or better than Wild Shape, but with far less splat support. Some feat investment can augment Alternate Form to a degree.

Pros: Alternate Form, good ability mods

Cons: 15 awful, awful RHD.

If this thing had less RHD, I would be pushing a pretty high LA. Seeing as you're going to be contending with party mates who are flinging around 8th level spells, you are decidedly underwhelming. A decent Polymorph, Wildshape or MoMF build can pull of most of what you can do, at lower ECL.

I'm voting LA +0; 5 miserable class levels before epic. I could see an argument for LA -0 due to those insane number of RHD.

This thing was designed first and last and always as a monster, not as a PC race. Can be pretty nasty as a CR 7 monster if played right. I might throw one at my party some time to emulate The Thing.

[The Blade Wolf]

15 HD for a One Trick Pony... a very power one-trick Pony, but still, 15 horrible HD for it... so +0, +1 at best.

.... Hmmm, makes me curious just how powerful a Master of Many Forms build would actually be. I have to admit, after all the talk about the Nymph stirring up my fascination with the Druid class as a whole. The Phasm is doing wonders to stir up my interest with just how powerful Polymorph/Shapechange can actually BE.

Pity that there doesn't seem to be any high-level games at the moment... or Gestalt...

[Flickerdart]

Yeah, this is basically a crappy druid.

Let's take a look-see at alternate form.

Spoiler: Alternate Form

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• The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form. If the new form has the aquatic subtype, the creature gains that subtype as well.
• The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
• The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
• The creature retains the special qualities of its original form. It does not gain any special qualities of its new form.
• The creature retains the spell-like abilities and supernatural attacks of its old form (except for breath weapons and gaze attacks). It does not gain the spell-like abilities or attacks of its new form.
• The creature gains the physical ability scores (Str, Dex, Con) of its new form. It retains the mental ability scores (Int, Wis, Cha) of its original form. Apply any changed physical ability score modifiers in all appropriate areas with one exception: the creature retains the hit points of its original form despite any change to its Constitution.
• The creature retains its hit points and save bonuses, although its save modifiers may change due to a change in ability scores.
• Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
• The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
• The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and it gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
• Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and vice versa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.

So our friend here gets physical ability scores, natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary attacks. It keeps its crummy Aberration HD and BAB, as well as decent mental stats. So it can do anything a druid can do, except there's no restriction on HD or type. Sadly, animals are already big and beefy, and the limitation on SU and SLA abilities means that you don't get much out of these perks.

Basically, all you can do is turn into the Infernal. It's not a bad trick: +34 AC, 240ft perfect fly speed, 6 natural attacks, Improved Grab, 43 STR, 25 DEX, and 28 CON (without boosting HP). But unlike the real deal, you don't have any magic. In a game where morphing into ELH creatures is allowed, you're going to need that magic. I could see the Phasm's player going through tons and tons of books to cherry-pick random high-HD monsters with Ex abilities that save the day, but I doubt any of it will be better than what a caster can do.

I could be convinced for +1 if evidence of crazy broken splatbook monsters could be produced, but +0 seems fair.

[Nifft]

So our friend here gets physical ability scores, natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary attacks. It keeps its crummy Aberration HD and BAB, as well as decent mental stats. So it can do anything a druid can do, except there's no restriction on HD or type. Sadly, animals are already big and beefy, and the limitation on SU and SLA abilities means that you don't get much out of these perks.

Basically, all you can do is turn into the Infernal. It's not a bad trick: +34 AC, 240ft perfect fly speed, 6 natural attacks, Improved Grab, 43 STR, 25 DEX, and 28 CON (without boosting HP). But unlike the real deal, you don't have any magic. In a game where morphing into ELH creatures is allowed, you're going to need that magic. I could see the Phasm's player going through tons and tons of books to cherry-pick random high-HD monsters with Ex abilities that save the day, but I doubt any of it will be better than what a caster can do.

I could be convinced for +1 if evidence of crazy broken splatbook monsters could be produced, but +0 seems fair.

I know people have done the leg-work for Druid forms.

Is there any way to quickly see a list of such (Ex) attacks?

Unless something new comes to light, I'm convinced that +0 is probably sufficient -- going to edit my other post.

[lord_khaine]

There are feats that let you assume the supernatural abilities of the things you turn into though. That can turn absurdly ugly with the no-HD limit on the Phasms ability.

[Flickerdart]

There are feats that let you assume the supernatural abilities of the things you turn into though. That can turn absurdly ugly with the no-HD limit on the Phasms ability.

There are two such feats.

Assume Supernatural Ability works only on forms assumed magically, using effects similar to polymorph. You get a single ability (arguably, of only one specific creature and not every form you pick, and arguably only an activated ability), base its DC off CHA which is otherwise useless, need to pass a DC 19 Will save every time you want to use it, and take -2 on attack rolls, saves, and checks. And the wizard's been doing it for 8 levels.

Metamorphic Transfer requires you to have a psionic manifester level of 5 (which means a level of a psionic class and another feat), also switches your DC to CHA, and can only be used a total of three times across all forms. And the psion's been doing it for 10 levels.

Neither of these is really unreasonable for a 15th level character.

[Inevitability]

LA changed to +0.

any monster, hmmmm. I have heard about this think called an aleax, I need not say any more

No turning into things with templates when using alternate form. Otherwise a level 5 druid could just become a pseudonatural paragon dire badger.

There are two such feats.

Assume Supernatural Ability works only on forms assumed magically, using effects similar to polymorph. You get a single ability (arguably, of only one specific creature and not every form you pick, and arguably only an activated ability), base its DC off CHA which is otherwise useless, need to pass a DC 19 Will save every time you want to use it, and take -2 on attack rolls, saves, and checks. And the wizard's been doing it for 8 levels.

Metamorphic Transfer requires you to have a psionic manifester level of 5 (which means a level of a psionic class and another feat), also switches your DC to CHA, and can only be used a total of three times across all forms. And the psion's been doing it for 10 levels.

Neither of these is really unreasonable for a 15th level character.

Fairly sure the psionic class level is unnecessary for Metamorphic Transfer. Just take a Host feat and you get one equal to half your HD (so at least 7 in case of a phasm), as well as a couple of crappy SLAs.

[javcs]

LA changed to +0.

Concur with +0.

No turning into things with templates when using alternate form. Otherwise a level 5 druid could just become a pseudonatural paragon dire badger.

Nah, Pseudonatural makes you an Aberration, I'm pretty sure. Aberration Wildshape can't happen until level 6, and that's if you skip Natural Spell. Paragon Dire Badger would be fine at 5, though.


Actually ... I'm not sure that the "no turning into a templated thing" clause is always explicit in RAW. If it isn't it probably should be, and I'm also sure that if it isn't actually RAW, it's one of those house rules that nobody realizes it's a house rule at a lot of tables.

Fairly sure the psionic class level is unnecessary for Metamorphic Transfer. Just take a Host feat and you get one equal to half your HD (so at least 7 in case of a phasm), as well as a couple of crappy SLAs.

I think a lot of the [Host] feats are actually racially restricted. Or functionally racially restricted.
The requirement of having a psionic entity you're hosting is something that the Kalashtar have all the time and the Inspired/Empty Vessels have some of the time. And nobody else qualifies by default, and that makes qualifying for [Host] feats difficult, IIRC.

[Inevitability]

Concur with +0.


Nah, Pseudonatural makes you an Aberration, I'm pretty sure. Aberration Wildshape can't happen until level 6, and that's if you skip Natural Spell. Paragon Dire Badger would be fine at 5, though.


Actually ... I'm not sure that the "no turning into a templated thing" clause is always explicit in RAW. If it isn't it probably should be, and I'm also sure that if it isn't actually RAW, it's one of those house rules that nobody realizes it's a house rule at a lot of tables.

A creature cannot use alternate form to take the form of a creature with a template.

RAW seems to be fairly explicit here, to be honest.

I think a lot of the [Host] feats are actually racially restricted. Or functionally racially restricted.
The requirement of having a psionic entity you're hosting is something that the Kalashtar have all the time and the Inspired/Empty Vessels have some of the time. And nobody else qualifies by default, and that makes qualifying for [Host] feats difficult, IIRC.

I guess you could interpret the rules that way, but in practice any creature could fulfill the 'must be possessed by a psionic entity' requirement. At the very least it's not impossible.

[Flickerdart]

Fairly sure the psionic class level is unnecessary for Metamorphic Transfer. Just take a Host feat and you get one equal to half your HD (so at least 7 in case of a phasm), as well as a couple of crappy SLAs.

If you can convince your DM, that's still 2 feats to use SU abilities thrice a day, and comes ten levels later than psions and ardents have been doing it.

[javcs]

RAW seems to be fairly explicit here, to be honest.

I was looking at the text for Shapechange, Wild Shape, and Polymorph, not Alternate Form. Which are places it seems reasonable to include such language, IMO.
Alter Self does have the "no templates" clause, but it's buried in the middle of the spell description, at the end of the section saying "you don't get these things that the form you took has", instead of with the "you can take the forms of these things" section.


And Wild Shape arguably changes the "no templates" restriction, so long as the end result is still of the Animal type, within the Druid's size constraints, and the Druid is familiar with the resultant form of Animal.
"[The Druid's] options for new forms include all creatures with the animal type."
Emphasis mine.

Obviously, it'd take a very permissive DM to allow such an interpretation to fly. And if the DM is allowing that interpretation to stand ... that's a level and kind of gameplay I don't think many people play at.

I guess you could interpret the rules that way, but in practice any creature could fulfill the 'must be possessed by a psionic entity' requirement. At the very least it's not impossible.

Well, sure, but that would require active DM involvement and approval. It's not exactly the most universally reliable way to meet the manifester level prereq for Metamorphic Transfer - meeting the psionic possession would probably involve some measure of downside, depending on the DM. Although, I'd agree that any DM willing to let one play as a Phasm in the first place probably would be willing to work with one to meet the "possessed by a psionic entity" prereq for [Host] feats without it costing too much. Even then, it's hardly overpowered for a level 15+ build oriented on shapeshifting.



Edit: This is kind of getting into the weeds here, as there's not much dispute over what the Phasm's LA should be any more. Planetouched next? Will they be together or separate?

[Inevitability]

Planetouched

Image courtesy of Marlowe, who's got a pretty awesome comic going. You should check it out!

On to planetouched, also known as my-grandma-bumped-uglies-with-an-outsider-folk. The MM has two variants.

Aasimar

Aasimar are the descendants of mortals and celestials. They get +2 wisdom and charisma, some energy resistances, darkvision, a bonus to spot and listen checks, and Daylight 1/day, currently at the cost of +1 LA. The problem is that at its current LA, this is blatantly underpowered, while a reduction to +0 would render aasimar one of the strongest races. It'd be like lesser aasimar (which are on the edge of what could still be considered +0), except they also get the outsider type.

I think +0 LA is the best option here, but honestly I recommend people using lesser aasimar or the online savage progression instead: these two races are more balanced.

Tiefling

Tieflings get Darkness instead of Daylight, fire instead of acid resistance, bonuses to bluff and hide rather than spot and listen, and +2 dexterity, +2 intelligence, -2 charisma instead of the aasimar's ability scores. They're about the same power level, and will be treated the same as the aasimar. +0 for now.


Pseudodragons are next!

[danielxcutter]

Their stat increasements are ones that are useful for their favored classes: Wisdom and Charisma for Aasimar(favored class Paladin), and Dex and Int for Tieflings(Rogue). Also there's the outsider type, which grants martial proficiency and some incredibly good Alter Self forms. Honestly, I don't think they're bad enough for a +0.

[Svata]

Problem is they're not good enough for +1 either.

[danielxcutter]

Problem is they're not good enough for +1 either.

Yeah, I know... If only their stats were a little better.

[khadgar567]

good old nostagia man i miss our banters as gitp regulars

[Thurbane]

Very torn on Aasimar and Tieflings.

Going to agree, not good enough got LA +1, slightly better than baseline LA +0.

I'm going against my gut, and voting LA +0, especially for Tieflings who get a "-2 to a stat because you're usually not Good" tax. Seriously, Cha is important for Rogue types. Just dump the penalty already.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Definitely one of the strongest races at LA +0, but acceptably so, if you're looking at a baseline of silverbrow humans/azurin, strongheart halflings, and other feat-and-some-stuff races. Better than a weak race at LA +1.

[Svata]

Yeah, -2 CHA for being descended from an evil outsider never made sense. Most of them have CHA bonuses. Are all Tieflings descended from Quasits, Dretches, and Lemures? Heck, except for Lemures, all of those at least have neutral Charisma. All of these get at least neutral Charisma. But tieflings? -2.

Spoiler: image

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[danielxcutter]

Yeah, -2 CHA for being descended from an evil outsider never made sense. Most of them have CHA bonuses. Are all Tieflings descended from Quasits, Dretches, and Lemures? Heck, except for Lemures, all of those at least have neutral Charisma. All of these get at least neutral Charisma. But tieflings? -2.

Spoiler: image

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Image doesn't show on my end, but otherwise yeah. And if Tieflings have fiend blood, shouldn't they have a Charisma bonus?