Mapping MTG colours to schools

[GilesTheCleric]

[Edit: Someone in a previous thread had made a list of all spells by colour; it seems like that's the most accurate way to undertake this. So, please comment on the spreadsheet if there's any errors or omissions you see, here.

Since the hard work of assigning schools to all of them is done, I can easily data merge them onto the cards. Please PM me if you have such a spreadsheet with all the rest of the spell info.]

How would each of you map each school of magic to the MTG colour pie?

Spoiler: my thoughts

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Abjuration: W
Conjuration: Gold/ WUBRG
Divination: U
Enchantment: WU
Evocation: R
Illusion: UB
Necromancy: B
Transmutation: UG
Universal: Colourless

Do you think that there should be a mono-coloured school for each colour, or does it make more sense to try to more accurately apply the colours to the effects of the schools, even if it means that most of them have two or more colours?


Update
This is for some spell cards, in case that matters to your opinion. Examples of the five colours here; dual colours here.

Spoiler: finished blue frame

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Spoiler: example dual-colour frame

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If anyone finds nice textures that are better for the backgrounds, let me know. Resolution should be 1000x1500 or larger.

[toapat]

you literally cannot map Schools of magic in DnD to colors of magic in DnD.

First of all, Literally every spell in DnD is Green. and if you disagree, gatherer.wizards.com and start reading, All 17000 cards. Tell me there is a mechanic barred from green. because there isnt.

Now, if were being rational beyond that fact, we have to get down into color philosophy.

Elementally, we can kind of map elements to the 5 colors, as magic does this already with some exception. Smite spells for instance MUST be red/White.

White: Radiant, Force
Blue: Cold, Psychic, Force
Black: Necrotic, Psychic
Red: Fire, Lightning, Thunder
Green: Poison, Acid, Thunder

Beyond that, we can somewhat divide schools based on their overlapping concepts, excluding Evocation for obvious reasons as stated above

Abjuration: White and blue, as these are defensive spells and those are the colors of defense. Mage armor for instance is clearly white. Antilife Shell is Black. Stoneskin is Green
Conjuration: Not going into detail, this falls into every color. Wish for instance is Red
Divination: W 5/U 13/B 1/R 2/G 8 (Color > Count)
Enchantment: Red and Blue are both about manipulation. there are also several White (Bane/Bless) and Green Effects (Animal Friendship/Messenger). Powerword Kill is an Archetypal black spell
Evocation: See Conjuration
Illusion: Primarily Blue, some exceptions are black, white, or green.
Necromancy: Offensive and Undead spells are Black, Protection and healing are white
Transmutation, Green and blue. Haste, slow and Heat metal are Red. Magic Weapon Meld into stone, Mending, Passwall are W

[CantigThimble]

I don't think the schools to colors method works because the schools are based on the source of the magic while colors are based purely on the effects. For example, healing spells are evocation because they're a spontaneous burst of energy by the school system but healing spells should clearly be white/green in the color system because they're supportive and restorative. Haste is a transmutation spell because it's about modifying a prexisting thing but it's red because the purpose of that modification is speed and aggression.

School classifications are scientific, color classifications are philisophical. In order to translate them you really need to do it on a spell-by-spell basis, though your system is probably 80% accurate.

[toapat]

School classifications are scientific, color classifications are philisophical. In order to translate them you really need to do it on a spell-by-spell basis, though your system is probably 80% accurate.

Its inaccurate to call the color wheel "Philosophical" when compared to the DnD school system since both systems kinda work in entirely different ways. Mechanically they are assembled along Scientific vs Philosophical means, but they dont exist really on the same scale as the other. And theres still the fact that Cure Wounds/Mass Cure Wounds/heal are Conjuration and not Necromancy spells.

From Magic the Gathering, the DnD school system is the philosophy of magic, while the colors are the science

[Slipperychicken]

Why not just decide which effects correspond to which MTG colors? Spells which combine different-colored effects would get to be multicolored then.

[GilesTheCleric]

Why not just decide which effects correspond to which MTG colors? Spells which combine different-colored effects would get to be multicolored then.

It would probably be feasible for 5e to do this, since there's probably only 600 spells or less (that's how many there were in the 3e PHB, so I assume the 5e PHB is the same -- I haven't counted). In 3e, that wouldn't work quite as well. I plan to make one for each Cleric spell, so that's roughly 1400 spells. Going through them all by hand would be too tedious, and I don't think I could write a script for InDesign to do it based on descriptors/ damage types/ other data.

[Finback]

Tell me there is a mechanic barred from green. because there isnt.

Technically, Fear - which was only ever applied to black creatures. ;) Since then, they revamped the mechanic as Intimidate, and the tossed that to the side for Menace. I mean, there's no reason you couldn't put Fear onto a green creature, but it was only ever put onto black creatures. Also true of Unearth, and Prowl, for instance.

(Granted, Fear can be bestowed onto any creature, but then that could be said for the majority of mechanics. But there's no green creatures with Fear built into them, nor will there ever be.)

[MrStabby]

This thread had some considerable overlap. You might find it informative/a useful starting point.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...&highlight=mtg

[Solunaris]

My play group has been doing a Zendikar campaign and initially we tried to do very much the same thing. After mulling it over for a few hours we decided just to do it on a spell by spell basis; but that proved to be way too tedious so instead if the color of a spell ever comes up we decided then and there what color it is.

Funnily enough, we all ended up playing some sort of caster and all gravitated towards one or two colors for our spell selections (expect the Cleric who just selects white and green spells from the list primarily). This has led to a few interesting developments like our Sorcerer gaining Shape Stone because he learned Lithomancy via plot and our Warlock renouncing white spells out of disgust.

[JellyPooga]

Spell Schools don't map well to MtG Colour...Classes do it better. Rather predictably.

Green = Druid/Ranger
White = Cleric/Paladin
Blue = Wizard (possibly Lore Bard)
Red = Sorcerer/Warlock
Black = (various subclasses, e.g. Death Cleric)

[solidork]

First of all, Literally every spell in DnD is Green. and if you disagree, gatherer.wizards.com and start reading, All 17000 cards. Tell me there is a mechanic barred from green. because there isnt.

This reminds me of a classic: http://web.archive.org/web/201202121...oing-anything/

I'm not super interested in getting into a fight about it, but there are tons of D&D spells that don't fit green's slice of the color pie. This is true even if you choose to include color pie breaks from back in the day.

[toapat]

Technically, Fear - which was only ever applied to black creatures. ;) Since then, they revamped the mechanic as Intimidate, and the tossed that to the side for Menace. I mean, there's no reason you couldn't put Fear onto a green creature, but it was only ever put onto black creatures. Also true of Unearth, and Prowl, for instance.

(Granted, Fear can be bestowed onto any creature, but then that could be said for the majority of mechanics. But there's no green creatures with Fear built into them, nor will there ever be.)

youre conflating keywords with mechanics. the only barred mechanic from Green is Mill. Everything else, especially now, is open game.

This thread had some considerable overlap. You might find it informative/a useful starting point.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...&highlight=mtg

That thread is broken.

Spell Schools don't map well to MtG Colour...Classes do it better. Rather predictably.

Green = Druid/Ranger
White = Cleric/Paladin
Blue = Wizard (possibly Lore Bard)
Red = Sorcerer/Warlock
Black = (various subclasses, e.g. Death Cleric)

thats not how the classes line up, expecially in 5E. The only Monocolored class at all is Wizard, and their spellls known would absolutely hit all 5C by lvl 20.

Artificer: "UR"
Bard: "BR"
Barbarian: "RG"
Cleric: "WB"
Druid: "BG"
Fighter: W+U/R
Monk: "WU"
Paladin: "RW"
Ranger: "GW"
Rogue: "UB"
Sorcerer: "UR"
Warlock: "BR"
Wizard: U+BRGW

[GilesTheCleric]

My play group has been doing a Zendikar campaign and initially we tried to do very much the same thing. After mulling it over for a few hours we decided just to do it on a spell by spell basis; but that proved to be way too tedious so instead if the color of a spell ever comes up we decided then and there what color it is.

Funnily enough, we all ended up playing some sort of caster and all gravitated towards one or two colors for our spell selections (expect the Cleric who just selects white and green spells from the list primarily). This has led to a few interesting developments like our Sorcerer gaining Shape Stone because he learned Lithomancy via plot and our Warlock renouncing white spells out of disgust.

Do you have a list of all your spells and their colours somewhere?

This thread had some considerable overlap. You might find it informative/a useful starting point.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...&highlight=mtg

That's a great thread, thank you. It looks like this is the final list they came up with. Do all of you mostly agree on the colour decisions for each spell? And, does someone already have a spreadsheet with all the spell data in individual columns that I could use for a data merge?

[toapat]

That's a great thread, thank you. It looks like this is the final list they came up with. Do all of you mostly agree on the colour decisions for each spell? And, does someone already have a spreadsheet with all the spell data in individual columns that I could use for a data merge?

Wish in MTG and Wish in DnD are very different effects, and while in MTG the effect is in all 5 colors with 2-3 examples each, Wish in DnD is mono-red.

Banishment is W not B/W, Because its casting someone out of the universe as opposed to Killing them

Shapechange should also be Blue

True Resurrection is actually WBG

Create or Destroy water is Blue, not green.

the only White smite spell on the list is Banishing smite, the rest should be Red

[JellyPooga]

thats not how the classes line up, expecially in 5E. The only Monocolored class at all is Wizard, and their spellls known would absolutely hit all 5C by lvl 20.

Artificer: "UR"
Bard: "BR"
Barbarian: "RG"
Cleric: "WB"
Druid: "BG"
Fighter: W+U/R
Monk: "WU"
Paladin: "RW"
Ranger: "GW"
Rogue: "UB"
Sorcerer: "UR"
Warlock: "BR"
Wizard: U+BRGW

Umm...you do realise that you atated that the only monocoloured class is Wizard and then listed them as being all colours, right?

And really? Bard is Black/ Red? Or Blue/Red? I'm not sure because you don't appear to differentiate between Black and Blue. Lore Bard is Blue, sure, if it grabs Counterspell and Dispel Magic, but nothing is Black. And what about it is Red? Fighters (bar EKs) don't cast at all and with only being able to grab Abjurations and Evocations, would be Blue/Red, not White. Shall I continue with my criticism?

No, the Colours in MtG map far better to Class than any school does. For exampe; Clerics have a focus on healing, buffs and to an extent, control, pus a couple of "divine smite" type direct damage spellz...sound like White magic at all? Green focuses on summoning and healing...sound like a Druid in D&D? Red has a massive focus on direct damage...hmm. What spellcasting class(es) does that sound like? Sorcerer, perhaps? The only cour in MtG that doesn't map well to a Class is Black, but Black is an odd colour anyway; very self-destructive, with a focus on reanimation and direct damage.

Sorry for the angry post, but I plead self-defence.

[GilesTheCleric]

Okay, I've converted the list of spells-by-colour into a spreadsheet that you all can comment on to make changes.

link.

Since the hard work of assigning schools to all of them is done, I can easily data merge them onto the cards once I have the rest of the info for each spell.

[toapat]

Umm...you do realise that you atated that the only monocoloured class is Wizard and then listed them as being all colours, right?

And really? Bard is Black/ Red? Or Blue/Red? I'm not sure because you don't appear to differentiate between Black and Blue. Lore Bard is Blue, sure, if it grabs Counterspell and Dispel Magic, but nothing is Black. And what about it is Red? Fighters (bar EKs) don't cast at all and with only being able to grab Abjurations and Evocations, would be Blue/Red, not White. Shall I continue with my criticism?

No, the Colours in MtG map far better to Class than any school does. For exampe; Clerics have a focus on healing, buffs and to an extent, control, pus a couple of "divine smite" type direct damage spellz...sound like White magic at all? Green focuses on summoning and healing...sound like a Druid in D&D? Red has a massive focus on direct damage...hmm. What spellcasting class(es) does that sound like? Sorcerer, perhaps? The only cour in MtG that doesn't map well to a Class is Black, but Black is an odd colour anyway; very self-destructive, with a focus on reanimation and direct damage.

Sorry for the angry post, but I plead self-defence.

Ignoring Yisan the Wandering bard (because Elves are green. End of story), bards are Hedonistic, which is a defining trait of Black/Red. also U = Blue, B= black. you can pick up spells that change certain aspects of the class's color weight, but dont. the class is Black/Red mechanically.

Wizard is Blue mechanically, and will pick up spells from every color by virtue of "im a wizard". Its the only class with no major secondary colors.

Fighters are either Disciplined or Gladatorial combatants, the Smart (Battlemaster)fighter is representative of a WU combatant, a Champion fighter is practically a barbarian already and will map to RW, while the casting of EK is highly relevant, their spells likely will split across the colors.

Clerics are in general, White or black, depending on the player. They also have T3 colors that are based on subclass.

Black is not rare in the classes of DnD, in fact in the total list, the only color that will beat it for frequency if we take all 40 base classes of 3.5, is Red. If we count 4E base classes, black will be the lowest color since the ideas of black and its self-obsession bent arent on the playerside mechanics of the system.

[CantigThimble]

In D&D bards' most common tools are illusion, enchantment, buffs and debuffs. That's blue with a splash of white and/or green depending on how you build them. Hedonism is one potential way to roleplay a bard, but there are plenty of other ways that are just as valid. (dashing hero, scholar, diplomat, etc.)

[toapat]

In D&D bards' most common tools are illusion, enchantment, buffs and debuffs. That's blue with a splash of white and/or green depending on how you build them. Hedonism is one potential way to roleplay a bard, but there are plenty of other ways that are just as valid. (dashing hero, scholar, diplomat, etc.)

Transmutattion buffs do have some instances of green spells, but Enchantment buffs are red. Red in DnD would have access to simple illusions but not things like illusionary constructs. Rummage (Discard a card, draw a card) is literally the mechanical version of "Distract with Shiny"

[GilesTheCleric]

I've updated the OP with the latest (hopefully 95% final) card frames. I've done one for each of the five colours. Tomorrow I'll see about either making the dual-coloured frames, or a small test datamerge.

Please let me know what you think of the frames.

Thank you to toapat for a big contribution to the colour-per-spell spreadsheet. If anyone else has any suggestions, corrections, whatever, feel free to comment here or right on the doc itself.

What books have spells other than EE and PHB? And, am I correct in guessing that EE is the same as ToEE? Which abbreviation is better to use, do you think?

[CantigThimble]

Transmutattion buffs do have some instances of green spells, but Enchantment buffs are red. Red in DnD would have access to simple illusions but not things like illusionary constructs. Rummage (Discard a card, draw a card) is literally the mechanical version of "Distract with Shiny"

Every color has enchantment buffs, but green/white have the most and best by a wide margin. But I was referring more to inspiration when talking about buffs (bards don't actually get a ton of transmutation) which seem more similar to things like anointer of champions or the blue power debuffs in the case of cutting words. And bards get every illusion spell in the book, not just the simple ones.

[toapat]

Every color has enchantment buffs, but green/white have the most

no, they dont. Having the most combat tricks doesnt translate at all into DnD terms because Combat tricks in DnD are much more Military than magical, except for the 30 instances of Giant growth which is Transmutation, AKA enlarge.

[CantigThimble]

no, they dont. Having the most combat tricks doesnt translate at all into DnD terms because Combat tricks in DnD are much more Military than magical, except for the 30 instances of Giant growth which is Transmutation, AKA enlarge.

I'm not talking about combat tricks I'm talking about creature auras. Red has had them as a subtheme in one or two sets, white and green have had them as subthemes in many more. They also have a ton of enchantment lords like Kor Enchantress, Yavimaya Enchantress, Umbra Mystic, Femeref Enchantress, etc. How much mtg have you played?

[Durazno]

I think the best way to map D&D spells to MtG colors would be to focus on the fluff. When you have a spell in hand, look for what it's doing storywise and see what color is represented as doing those things. So Friends and Fireball would both be red, not because of their school, but because MtG mostly has "make giant fireballs" and "give people brief, powerful changes of heart" as red spells.

If you wanted to map classes, on the other hand, you'd probably want to look at where MtG puts creatures that have those classes. Fighters, for instance, would mostly be white (disciplined soldiers), black (selfish mercenaries), or red (furious warriors.) Paladins would be white or black, depending on alignment, though the Oath of the Ancient pushes into green. Rogues are mostly black and/or blue. Barbarians red or green. My instinct says that Warlocks would be black or red, mostly, but the oath of the tome might be more blue. Wizards blue, sorcerers red, druids green, though those would all be likely to have secondary colors.

[toapat]

I'm not talking about combat tricks I'm talking about creature auras. Red has had them as a subtheme in one or two sets, white and green have had them as subthemes in many more. They also have a ton of enchantment lords like Kor Enchantress, Yavimaya Enchantress, Umbra Mystic, Femeref Enchantress, etc. How much mtg have you played?

the literal Enchantment school and the literal Enchantment card type are completely unrelated. Green Cannot effect the mind like Red and Blue. In fact Green is like modern Neuroscience where it cant differentiate where a Mind begins and an organic CPU ends.

Enchantments are Ongoing spells in MTG. in DnD Enchantments are Mind Affecting spells.

Enchantress is Not green in current color pie nad hasnt been for 4 years.

Anthems do not have a representation in 5E and do not represent actual magical effects

I think the best way to map D&D spells to MtG colors would be to focus on the fluff.

Magic the gathering has a mountain of rules tied to mechanical reasoning in terms of effects that are actual magic in terms of what each color does, and the fluff can sometimes be utterly useless, such as Impulse.

If its manipulating the mind, Emotional control is red, Thought control is Blue, Hostility in usage adds black, attempting to undo hostility or protect adds white.

If it creates offense or defensive buffs through magical interdiction, it's white. If it creates magical offensive or defensive buffs through Moral, it's red. If its doing it through biological manipulation, the spell is Green and blue.

If the spell manipulates Water, wind, or weather, it is blue

if it controls Electricity, Fire, or earth, it is red.

If it controls Light, Healing, or earth, it is white.

If the manipulates Acid it is Green, if it manipulates poisons, it is also black.

Information gathering through Extraplanar Powers is White and black

Information gathering through scrying is green and blue.

Conjuration depends on the creatures being summoned. Fey will be Sultai, Angels make it White, Devils black, Demons Red, and many other combinations im not going over just because of what is summoned.

Foresight and Intense time manipulation is blue, while minor time dilation effects, such as haste and expedious retreat, are the territory of red.

Interacting with Good and evil is white and black.

Wish, while mechanically on 10? cards split between all colors, is actually a weird scenario. The effects of Wish can be any color, the very ACT of wishing is Red, assuming its the actual "Last minute, desperate pleading for intervention beyond reason and being rewarded".

[DGIF2015]

Honestly never occurred to me to combine the games lol

[toapat]

Honestly never occurred to me to combine the games lol

mostly since the Mechanical sides of DnD and MTG are basically incompatible. the Player is Boots on the ground in DnD while they are Eye in the Sky in MTG. you dont do your own fighting except through magic, and everyone is a Minion Master if its not the storm guy who either Snuggles you to death with OH GOD OH GOD, DONT LET THEM TOUCH ME or enough Dakka to make an entire Ork WHAAG! proud

[CantigThimble]

the literal Enchantment school and the literal Enchantment card type are completely unrelated. Green Cannot effect the mind like Red and Blue. In fact Green is like modern Neuroscience where it cant differentiate where a Mind begins and an organic CPU ends.

Enchantments are Ongoing spells in MTG. in DnD Enchantments are Mind Affecting spells.

Enchantress is Not green in current color pie nad hasnt been for 4 years.

Anthems do not have a representation in 5E and do not represent actual magical effects

I am well aware of the differences between enchantment in the two games. The only time I ever used enchantment in the D&D sense was when I said "illusion, enchantment, buffs and debuffs". If you are using enchantment in the D&D sense then I can see where the misunderstanding began. What did you mean by "Enchantment buffs are red"? In D&D there are exactly two buff spells in the entire school of enchantment (neither of which are particularly red in flavor) while in mtg enchantments are mostly buff spells but most of them are not red.

[toapat]

What did you mean by "Enchantment buffs are red"?

different typed bonuses arent in the game anymore, but the Overwhelming Courage of Heroism and the randomized bonus of Bless are both red effects. Bless is also White and black because of its divine nature.

you said Bards are Blue and Selesnya, which they arent, even if the only bard in MTG is literally a Green creature tutor. Bards deal almost entirely with the mind which completely non-green. The base class is Red and Black with a very heavily blue and red spell list

[CantigThimble]

different typed bonuses arent in the game anymore, but the Overwhelming Courage of Heroism and the randomized bonus of Bless are both red effects. Bless is also White and black because of its divine nature.

you said Bards are Blue and Selesnya, which they arent, even if the only bard in MTG is literally a Green creature tutor. Bards deal almost entirely with the mind which completely non-green. The base class is Red and Black with a very heavily blue and red spell list

Heroism and Bless both seem comepletely white in flavor in my opinion. An effect using dice in D&D isn't nearly as unusual as it would be in mtg so it being a random buff doesn't mean much I don't think.

I said bards COULD be green or white if they were built in a certain way. Green is probably pretty rare though that's how I would describe one of the bards I've played with. (He's probably a bit of an outlier since he stole 3 druid spells though) Blue and red both share mind control effects, with red taking ones based on aggression and blue getting the rest, especially mental tricks like dizzy spell and fleeting distraction. Depending on how the bard was built it would be fair to call them UR I think. (If they used crown of madness and dominate person often) I'm really not sure how you get black out of the bard kit, other than your idea that bards are inherently selfish and hedonistic, which is an option for roleplay but definitely not built into the chassis. In fact the way inspiration works means that they're pretty much forced to be team players.