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Thread: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
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2007-07-29, 11:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
So out of curiosity I was wondering what would happen if you cast mage's disjunction on a phylactery if the rules aren't clear then tell me what you would do if you were DM.
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2007-07-30, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
A lich's phylactery is a magic item, and is subject to disjunction like any other magic item. Its caster level is equal to the caster level of its creator at the time it was made; the caster level determines what its base Will save bonus is.
If the phylactery is successfully disjoined, the effect would be the same as if it was physically destroyed: The lich suffers no ill effects, however it is unable to reform when it's next destroyed.FeytouchedBanana eldritch disciple avatar by...me!
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2007-07-30, 12:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
Well, the text of "Lich" specifies that the phylactery is in fact a "magic phylactery." Taking that in conjunction with the fact that you need Craft Wondrous Item and must spend gold and XP to make one, and I'd say the phylactery counts as a magic item and is therefore subject to being disjoined (and effectively destroyed).
Of course, that doesn't help you find the damn thing in the first place, which is the usual problem with phylacteries. Also note that the phylactery gets a Will save to resist. By RAW, its Will save equals 2 plus half the lich's caster level at the time it was created; however, I would probably house-rule that it uses the lich's own saves.Last edited by Dausuul; 2007-07-30 at 12:06 AM.
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2007-07-30, 12:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
A phylactery is a sort of magic item. Disjunction completely de-magic-ifies any magic item. The net result is the same as if you had smashed it with a big hammer, except that you get a pretty piece of nonmagical jewelry to take as a trophy. If the lich is destroyed at the time, then he's now gone forever, and if he's up and about, he stays up, but the next time he's destroyed is permanent.
I believe that a phylactery would be considered a caster level 11 item (since that's the minimum level to make one), so it would have a +7 on its saving throw vs. the Disjunction. Depending on the caster casting the disjunction, that would mean approximately an 80% chance of success.
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2007-07-30, 01:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
Yeah. It destroys it, sure... but that's an awfully big waste of a 9th level spell (and any nearby magic items not in your possession) to do what you could've accomplished with a large, heavy rock. Once you have the Phylactery, destroying it usually isn't too much of an issue. It's finding and reaching it that's generally the tough part.
(A sillier question--why doesn't Disjunction work on the lich itself, or any magically-created undead, for that matter? You would expect the force animating such a creature to be a "magical effect" that can be terminated by that spell. Note that this interpretation is not recommended, since Disjunction, used in this way, would involve no save, simply terminating any undead or constructs in its radius instantly. But as a practical matter, aside from game balance issues I can't see why it doesn't do exactly that.)
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2007-07-30, 01:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-30, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
Effectively, they now "live" on negative energy in some self-sustaining manner (Or have enough reserves that they can survive for a long time), like normal beings "live" on positive energy.
Nope, I just made that up Makes some sense though.
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2007-07-30, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-30, 09:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
I've heard strategies for hiding it where you make things that the PCs don't want destroyed into the phylactery. Disjoining it instead would be a means of removing the lich without destroying it completely.
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2007-07-30, 10:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
plus the gizmo the caster makes into his phylactery costs 120,000 gp, note please that it is the object itself that costs that not that the caster uses up that amount of valuable stuff as with useual magic item creation, disjoining means you've got an enormous diamond worth an entire swanky castle , smashing it will reduce the value by a whole heap.
Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2007-07-30, 10:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
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2007-07-30, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
The SRD, perhaps?
Originally Posted by d20 SRDLast edited by RTGoodman; 2007-07-30 at 10:32 AM.
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2007-07-30, 10:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
have a read of the lich requirements, it lists the object as needing to be worth 120,000 gp, into which you invest 4,800 xp. This isn't strictly a magic item, the base object might also be a magic item which is frankly the only way i can think of to bump the price that astronomically high in which case this doesn't apply but that's one of the major limiting criterea for turning into a lich in game, you can't spend 60,000 gp to make it, it's got to be a lump sum of 120,000 gp which cripples a level 11 WBL guideline, the newborn lich is effectively flat broke and now level 15.... HA HA, everything stomps on you.
Give them bread and circusses and the plebs wont rise against you. Give adventurers dungeons and trapped chests and they won't waste time looking to ransack your home and kill your wife.
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2007-07-30, 10:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-07-30, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
For the people saying this, it definitely is a waste to Disjoin jsut one item. However, it's possible for a Phylactery to be made of Adamantium or in some other way be hard to break; also, the Disjunction spell might be cast for another reason and the Phylactery just happens to be present.
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2007-07-30, 10:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
It does indeed cost that much to make, but that doesn't add intrinsic value to it's non-magical self, like any other magic item. You disjoin a belt of giant strength +8, it's not worth 640K anymore. Really.
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2007-07-30, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
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2007-07-30, 11:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
One possible reason to disjoin a phylactery instead of smashing it is that Disjunction has an area of effect. If the lich has hidden his phylactery in a room full of decoy items, it might be easier to cast Disjunction on the whole room than to try to figure out what the phylactery is.
Then again, if there are any other magic items in that room, you've just wasted them all, and if there aren't, you could find the phylactery with a simple Detect Magic, so I'm not sure that's a good idea.
And while a disjoined phylactery probably won't be worth the full 120,000 GP it cost to make it, it might still be worth a pretty penny. Gems and various sorts of jewelry are popular choices for phylacteries, and they'd lose their loot value if smashed.
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2007-07-31, 06:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
if i ever become a lich, i would turn a wand of sleep or something otherwise magical but, at lvl 20, useless magical item. So the players would just leave it, and not even bother to take a futher look.
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2007-07-31, 06:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
What happens if you kill a lich, and put it's Phylactery in an Antimagic Shell? Does the lich stop reforming itself, or just die?
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2007-07-31, 06:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
I'd rule that the lich couldn't reform itself 'til the phylactery was outside of the antimagic shell. Of course, you can't teleport or magic jar into an antimagic shell, so a case could certainly be made for this killing the lich permanently. As far as I know, this isn't covered by RAW, though I could be wrong.
EDIT: I misread the post... if you killed the lich first, I'd say the soul is still in the phylactery, but the body can't reform 'til it's out of the shell.Last edited by Jimmy Discordia; 2007-07-31 at 06:18 AM.
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2007-07-31, 06:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
I can think of an exception.
In thisD&D campaign, the lich who presented one of the largest threats in the campaign did not follow the traditional path of hiding his phylactery. Instead, he enchanted it with contingent magical traps and curses so powerful that nobody would dare to destroy it.
In that case, a Mage's Disjunction might be a much better choice, on the assumption that it would disjoin the magical traps as well as the phylactery itself.
Sometimes, killing the lich is more important than having a pile of treasure to take home.
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2007-07-31, 06:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
Yeah, but inside the antimagic shell isn't a Phylactery just an unattended non-magical object like any other, and arguably loses supernatural ability to hold onto a liches' soul? A lich can't use, for example, a chair as a Phylactery after all, unless the chair in question was perpared as a magic item and laced with magic to do exactly that.
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2007-07-31, 06:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
My take on it is that it takes magic to move the lich's soul into and out of the phylactery, but not to hold it. That's just my take on things, though - I'm not sure if this ever really comes up in the rules.
This puts an interesting twist on disjoining a phylactery when the lich's soul is inside it - perhaps his soul is trapped there until the object itself is destroyed, preventing any attempts at magical resurrection? Probably nothing that would ever come up unless you have lich PCs, though.
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2007-07-31, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
Correct me if I'm wrong, but an ability or what-have-you which is specifically listed as "supernatural" doesn't count as magic and therefore wouldn't be affected by a disjunction anyway, would it? So, the question is, does the creation of a new body when his old one is destroyed count as a spell-like ability of the phylactery, or a supernatural one?
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2007-07-31, 08:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery
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