Mage's Disjunction -> Phylactery

[PlasticSoldier]

So out of curiosity I was wondering what would happen if you cast mage's disjunction on a phylactery if the rules aren't clear then tell me what you would do if you were DM.

[Jasdoif]

A lich's phylactery is a magic item, and is subject to disjunction like any other magic item. Its caster level is equal to the caster level of its creator at the time it was made; the caster level determines what its base Will save bonus is.

If the phylactery is successfully disjoined, the effect would be the same as if it was physically destroyed: The lich suffers no ill effects, however it is unable to reform when it's next destroyed.

[Dausuul]

So out of curiosity I was wondering what would happen if you cast mage's disjunction on a phylactery if the rules aren't clear then tell me what you would do if you were DM.

Well, the text of "Lich" specifies that the phylactery is in fact a "magic phylactery." Taking that in conjunction with the fact that you need Craft Wondrous Item and must spend gold and XP to make one, and I'd say the phylactery counts as a magic item and is therefore subject to being disjoined (and effectively destroyed).

Of course, that doesn't help you find the damn thing in the first place, which is the usual problem with phylacteries. Also note that the phylactery gets a Will save to resist. By RAW, its Will save equals 2 plus half the lich's caster level at the time it was created; however, I would probably house-rule that it uses the lich's own saves.

[Chronos]

A phylactery is a sort of magic item. Disjunction completely de-magic-ifies any magic item. The net result is the same as if you had smashed it with a big hammer, except that you get a pretty piece of nonmagical jewelry to take as a trophy. If the lich is destroyed at the time, then he's now gone forever, and if he's up and about, he stays up, but the next time he's destroyed is permanent.

I believe that a phylactery would be considered a caster level 11 item (since that's the minimum level to make one), so it would have a +7 on its saving throw vs. the Disjunction. Depending on the caster casting the disjunction, that would mean approximately an 80% chance of success.

[Aquillion]

Yeah. It destroys it, sure... but that's an awfully big waste of a 9th level spell (and any nearby magic items not in your possession) to do what you could've accomplished with a large, heavy rock. Once you have the Phylactery, destroying it usually isn't too much of an issue. It's finding and reaching it that's generally the tough part.

(A sillier question--why doesn't Disjunction work on the lich itself, or any magically-created undead, for that matter? You would expect the force animating such a creature to be a "magical effect" that can be terminated by that spell. Note that this interpretation is not recommended, since Disjunction, used in this way, would involve no save, simply terminating any undead or constructs in its radius instantly. But as a practical matter, aside from game balance issues I can't see why it doesn't do exactly that.)

[Kyace]

Likely for the same reason undead can move into an antimagic zone: the spell duration is instant., its already come and gone, the effect, the animated undead remain but they seem to be powered by neg. energy now instead of magic.

[Arbitrarity]

Effectively, they now "live" on negative energy in some self-sustaining manner (Or have enough reserves that they can survive for a long time), like normal beings "live" on positive energy.

Nope, I just made that up Makes some sense though.

[Swooper]

Or you could, I dunno, smash it with a hammer? Disjoining it is like crossing the river to get water.

[Mad Wizard]

I've heard strategies for hiding it where you make things that the PCs don't want destroyed into the phylactery. Disjoining it instead would be a means of removing the lich without destroying it completely.

[mostlyharmful]

plus the gizmo the caster makes into his phylactery costs 120,000 gp, note please that it is the object itself that costs that not that the caster uses up that amount of valuable stuff as with useual magic item creation, disjoining means you've got an enormous diamond worth an entire swanky castle , smashing it will reduce the value by a whole heap.

[Arbitrarity]

plus the gizmo the caster makes into his phylactery costs 120,000 gp, note please that it is the object itself that costs that not that the caster uses up that amount of valuable stuff as with useual magic item creation, disjoining means you've got an enormous diamond worth an entire swanky castle , smashing it will reduce the value by a whole heap.

Whaaa?! Where'd you get that idea?

[RTGoodman]

Whaaa?! Where'd you get that idea?

The SRD, perhaps?

The phylactery costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create and has a caster level equal to that of its creator at the time of creation.

EDIT: Wait, I think I understand your question - the phylactery may cost that much to make, but after looking back at it, I think that the material cost may be used up in the creation. I think the poster who talked about retrieving the phylactery for the money it would bring in may be wrong about that part. But it does indeed cost that much.

[mostlyharmful]

have a read of the lich requirements, it lists the object as needing to be worth 120,000 gp, into which you invest 4,800 xp. This isn't strictly a magic item, the base object might also be a magic item which is frankly the only way i can think of to bump the price that astronomically high in which case this doesn't apply but that's one of the major limiting criterea for turning into a lich in game, you can't spend 60,000 gp to make it, it's got to be a lump sum of 120,000 gp which cripples a level 11 WBL guideline, the newborn lich is effectively flat broke and now level 15.... HA HA, everything stomps on you.

[RTGoodman]

have a read of the lich requirements, it lists the object as needing to be worth 120,000 gp, into which you invest 4,800 xp.

But read it again - it doesn't mention that you "invest" the xp into the item. It says just that the phylactery "costs 120,000 gp and 4,800 XP to create."

Unless I'm totally failing in my understanding of the SRD description.

[brian c]

Yeah. It destroys it, sure... but that's an awfully big waste of a 9th level spell (and any nearby magic items not in your possession) to do what you could've accomplished with a large, heavy rock. Once you have the Phylactery, destroying it usually isn't too much of an issue. It's finding and reaching it that's generally the tough part.

For the people saying this, it definitely is a waste to Disjoin jsut one item. However, it's possible for a Phylactery to be made of Adamantium or in some other way be hard to break; also, the Disjunction spell might be cast for another reason and the Phylactery just happens to be present.

[Arbitrarity]

It does indeed cost that much to make, but that doesn't add intrinsic value to it's non-magical self, like any other magic item. You disjoin a belt of giant strength +8, it's not worth 640K anymore. Really.

[Roderick_BR]

Likely for the same reason undead can move into an antimagic zone: the spell duration is instant., its already come and gone, the effect, the animated undead remain but they seem to be powered by neg. energy now instead of magic.

And for the same reason that Turn Undead can affect undead, but not magical effects. A different kind of energy.

[Chronos]

One possible reason to disjoin a phylactery instead of smashing it is that Disjunction has an area of effect. If the lich has hidden his phylactery in a room full of decoy items, it might be easier to cast Disjunction on the whole room than to try to figure out what the phylactery is.

Then again, if there are any other magic items in that room, you've just wasted them all, and if there aren't, you could find the phylactery with a simple Detect Magic, so I'm not sure that's a good idea.

And while a disjoined phylactery probably won't be worth the full 120,000 GP it cost to make it, it might still be worth a pretty penny. Gems and various sorts of jewelry are popular choices for phylacteries, and they'd lose their loot value if smashed.

[ThorFluff]

if i ever become a lich, i would turn a wand of sleep or something otherwise magical but, at lvl 20, useless magical item. So the players would just leave it, and not even bother to take a futher look.

[Tokiko Mima]

What happens if you kill a lich, and put it's Phylactery in an Antimagic Shell? Does the lich stop reforming itself, or just die?

[Jimmy Discordia]

What happens if you kill a lich, and put it's Phylactery in an Antimagic Shell? Does the lich stop reforming itself, or just die?

I'd rule that the lich couldn't reform itself 'til the phylactery was outside of the antimagic shell. Of course, you can't teleport or magic jar into an antimagic shell, so a case could certainly be made for this killing the lich permanently. As far as I know, this isn't covered by RAW, though I could be wrong.

EDIT: I misread the post... if you killed the lich first, I'd say the soul is still in the phylactery, but the body can't reform 'til it's out of the shell.

[Dervag]

Yeah. It destroys it, sure... but that's an awfully big waste of a 9th level spell (and any nearby magic items not in your possession) to do what you could've accomplished with a large, heavy rock. Once you have the Phylactery, destroying it usually isn't too much of an issue. It's finding and reaching it that's generally the tough part.

I can think of an exception.

In thisD&D campaign, the lich who presented one of the largest threats in the campaign did not follow the traditional path of hiding his phylactery. Instead, he enchanted it with contingent magical traps and curses so powerful that nobody would dare to destroy it.

In that case, a Mage's Disjunction might be a much better choice, on the assumption that it would disjoin the magical traps as well as the phylactery itself.

Then again, if there are any other magic items in that room, you've just wasted them all, and if there aren't, you could find the phylactery with a simple Detect Magic, so I'm not sure that's a good idea.

Sometimes, killing the lich is more important than having a pile of treasure to take home.

[Tokiko Mima]

Yeah, but inside the antimagic shell isn't a Phylactery just an unattended non-magical object like any other, and arguably loses supernatural ability to hold onto a liches' soul? A lich can't use, for example, a chair as a Phylactery after all, unless the chair in question was perpared as a magic item and laced with magic to do exactly that.

[Jimmy Discordia]

Yeah, but inside the antimagic shell isn't a Phylactery just an unattended non-magical object like any other, and arguably loses supernatural ability to hold onto a liches' soul? A lich can't use, for example, a chair as a Phylactery after all, unless the chair in question was perpared as a magic item and laced with magic to do exactly that.

My take on it is that it takes magic to move the lich's soul into and out of the phylactery, but not to hold it. That's just my take on things, though - I'm not sure if this ever really comes up in the rules.

This puts an interesting twist on disjoining a phylactery when the lich's soul is inside it - perhaps his soul is trapped there until the object itself is destroyed, preventing any attempts at magical resurrection? Probably nothing that would ever come up unless you have lich PCs, though.

[factotum]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but an ability or what-have-you which is specifically listed as "supernatural" doesn't count as magic and therefore wouldn't be affected by a disjunction anyway, would it? So, the question is, does the creation of a new body when his old one is destroyed count as a spell-like ability of the phylactery, or a supernatural one?

[AtomicKitKat]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but an ability or what-have-you which is specifically listed as "supernatural" doesn't count as magic and therefore wouldn't be affected by a disjunction anyway, would it? So, the question is, does the creation of a new body when his old one is destroyed count as a spell-like ability of the phylactery, or a supernatural one?

Actually, Supernatural is "magic". It just cannot be dispelled, unlike Spells and SLAs, so in theory, Disjunction fails, unless it says it can dispel Su things.