Spells costing money...

[Tokiko Mima]

Just random thoughts on the subject of spells that have costs associated with them.

How does this work? I mean, I know mechanically that you remove X amount from the players box where he wrote down how much cash he has, but what physically happens when the money poofs? Does it melt into nothing or slag? Transform into worthless rock? Teleport to the magical moneylender in the sky?

And how does a spell know exactly how much to take? It would be easy for it to take a certain weight of gold in the form of coins, but if the player starts carting around notes of payment instead actual coinage the issue gets a little wierd. Does it poof the cash he has in the bank vault? Or if he has all his money in silver and platinum, does the spell make change in gold? Or does it leave partial piece of a platinum coin?

Can you sacrifice magic items to cast spells? Could you use it as an appraisal tool, by say sacrificing a single arrow from a quiver of thirty to see how many 1 gp spells you could cast before the arrow vanished?

If a spell costs XP do you experience amnesia after it's cast? What don't you remember about how you got that XP? Would you be able to testify in court on a murder you commited for XP but later spent on a spell?

Just wondering if there are any good answers to these questions out there, really.

[Gralamin]

It is assumed that when a Spellcaster casts spells with expensive material components, that he actually bought them while in town, and he just has to deduct the price. No one really wants to look after reagents.
You cannot lose magic items to casting the spells.
The XP cost means you have to pour some of your own lifeforce into the spell to get its effect.

[Citizen Joe]

err... umm... no.

Money cost spells are actually spells that require expensive items that are used up when casting. So you have to go out and buy the stuff you need for the spell. Take money out of PC box and put it into cash register of magic shop.

XP could be thought of as potential. Until it is actually used, it doesn't exist. Normally, it is 'used' to advance your levels, but it can also be used for making magic items and casting some spells. If you think of those items and spells as part of your character, then your experience still exists, just spread out a bit.

[Tokiko Mima]

Ok, what I mean is say you're casting teleportation circle, a spell that requires 1,000 gp worth of amber dust. You cast the spell, but what happened to the amber dust? Did it turn into normal dust, vanish, or teleport to somewhere else?

Obviously it's not still there on the floor, or the PC would scoop it back up for next time, defeating the point of their being a cost.

[Morty]

Ok, what I mean is say you're casting teleportation circle, a spell that requires 1,000 gp worth of amber dust. You cast the spell, but what happened to the amber dust? Did it turn into normal dust, vanish, or teleport to somewhere else?

Obviously it's not still there on the floor, or the PC would scoop it back up for next time, defeating the point of their being a cost.

Use your imagination. You may say that it dissapears, or burns out with blue flame, explodes in the exact moment the spell is finished. I tend to make up such descriptions on the fly, when I use the certain spell.

[Arbitrarity]

IIRC, the PHB says that the components channel the spell's energy, which generally destroys the components. Lots of energy or somesuch. And the component price is a general measure of the exact amount of component required, at the general price.

[hewhosaysfish]

I can't think of any spell that costs money to cast; plenty that consume something that is worth a certain amount of money (gemstome worth 10gp, small ivory baboon worth 500gp, etc.)
And the GMs I know wouldn't let you retroactively buy something from town three days ago to cast a spell now. When the orcs attack, can the fighter retroactively buy an orc-bane sword?
As for what happens to the material components, for some spells it is explicitly spelled out what happens to them (Spider Climb, Animate Dead, Leomund's Tiny Hut) but for most they are just generically "consumed". You can, as Mort said, desribe special effects or just have them vanish. Never allow your players to create a spell where the material component is an angry red dragon.

As for xp, since the character hasn't actually learned anything since he's levelled up (and xp loss from spells/crafting can never cause you to lose a level) then the character isn't actually forgetting anything.

[Keld Denar]

Ok, what I mean is say you're casting teleportation circle, a spell that requires 1,000 gp worth of amber dust. You cast the spell, but what happened to the amber dust? Did it turn into normal dust, vanish, or teleport to somewhere else?

Obviously it's not still there on the floor, or the PC would scoop it back up for next time, defeating the point of their being a cost.

Most spells that use gem "dust" or metal "powder" involve scribing some manner of runes on a surface using that material. The material is then consumed by the energy of the spell using whatever cinimatics your DM sees fit. It might flare up in flames (natural colored or otherwise). It might pulse with light, and then fuse with the surface so that it looks like a paint or ink. It might do any number of things.

As for casting spells with costly materical components go, the easy way to do it is to just subtract from their gold total. The way it should go, however, is that the player has to buy/find/steal/etc the material, and then has x number of uses before they need to recharge. This is especially important when dungeon crawling. Jozan the Cleric leaves the temple of Pelor with enough silver powder to cast concecrate 5 times. While him and Tordek are in the Dungeon of Doom kickin zombies and takin names, he casts concecrate 5 times. He now can't cast concecrate any more times until he returns to the surface. That adds a degree of reality, and honestly isn't more difficult to track than potions that a player has. Make something like this.

25g in silver powder [] [] [] [] []
5000g in diamond dust [] []

Then just check the box when its consumed, erase the check when its replaced.

[Citizen Joe]

Spell components (and materials for magic items) are supposed to be fresh, so scooping up what was left of the dust would not be helpful.

I think what you're thinking about is a focus. Foci do not get consumed in the casting process. Material components are consumed.

[TheDon]

Allow me to complicate that question, in the world I play not all the country use the same currency, One specific country added a none precious metal to their GP because they're a poor country. So residents of other country say that money is worthless and value it at 1/10th of it's actual value. However you could still buy a 500 gp worth of diamond using 5000 gp of that money and still fit the spell description. Or buy a "5000 gp" diamond in the poor country.

[Citizen Joe]

Just use UMR(Universal Market Rate) costs for everything when dictating how much of something. It isn't a question of how much you pay for something (since clearly you could just steal it) its how much it is worth. Likewise, if you trade two and a half tons of salt for that '500 gp' diamond dust. Its a specific volume of diamond dust, but in game terms its more important how much it normally costs than how much space it takes up.

[Tokiko Mima]

I can't think of any spell that costs money to cast; plenty that consume something that is worth a certain amount of money (gemstome worth 10gp, small ivory baboon worth 500gp, etc.)
And the GMs I know wouldn't let you retroactively buy something from town three days ago to cast a spell now. When the orcs attack, can the fighter retroactively buy an orc-bane sword?
As for what happens to the material components, for some spells it is explicitly spelled out what happens to them (Spider Climb, Animate Dead, Leomund's Tiny Hut) but for most they are just generically "consumed". You can, as Mort said, desribe special effects or just have them vanish. Never allow your players to create a spell where the material component is an angry red dragon.

This is true, but so few people play this way, because it involves everyones two least favorite D&D chores: tracking encumbrance and spell components.

Unfortunately, I'm used to the lazy way of just subtracting cash when the spell calls for money. I almost want to house-rule material components away, except for the disproportionate effect that would have on higher level spells.

I still think it would be funny if there was a "Plane of Wealth" where all spell components travel to when they die. With entire mountains of black onyxs from all the necromancers reanimating corpses, and maybe a desert made of diamond dust from all the rezzs that have ever been performed..

As for xp, since the character hasn't actually learned anything since he's levelled up (and xp loss from spells/crafting can never cause you to lose a level) then the character isn't actually forgetting anything.

Ah, so you go for the 'sudden flash of inspiration grants you a level all at once' approach. Ok. I look at earning experience as the gradual gaining of experience in his trade, so when you lose XP it doesn't make a lot of sense.

[sktarq]

Actually this is how I keep my magic stores in business. Importing and exporting various spell components. I use a base cost of whatever the spell description uses to figure out how MUCH of a component is nessesary...then adjust for how avalible that component is locally. So in an area like Latvia that produces lots of amber the wizards are casting Teleport a lot more freely than thier counterparts in the equivilant of say Turkey. In fact those "Turkish" wizards may find getting ahold of amber dust difficult enough not to bother learning Teleport at all and the knowledge of that spell isn't widely spread. It gives various areas much flavor...I use the same things for various weapon and armour modifications....those cost go to buying components -some of which may not be availible locally.

[Randel]

Heh, I found a .pdf file here that talks about gems. I haven't bought it yet but there is a demo file you can see to check it out. One interesting thing is it talks about different groups of people, one is an organization of wizards who are always searching for valuable stones and gems to use to fuel their magic spells... and another group of royalty and nobles who don't want those wizards anywhere near their jewelry!

I always kind of figured using up spell components basically burned them up like how wood get turned into ash to create heat or how uranium gets turned into radioactive slag. I suppose in a magically active world it might be possible to reconstitute spell components from the 'ash' that resulted from it if you could find a source of power strong enough.

For example, a necromancer might use up a black onyx gem to create an undead. The gem is burned into a 'worthless shell' which is basically a really ugly burnt-out husk of rock. I suppose if someone wanted to they could pull the burnt-out gems from defeated zombies and try repairing them. But the energy cost of repairing a black onyx would be about the same as creating one. Something like thousands of degrees of heat and millions of tonnes of pressure... you would need a major artifact to repair used up gems, and something like a volcano or a portal to the plane of fire to get the energy to fuel it.

[Dausuul]

This is true, but so few people play this way, because it involves everyones two least favorite D&D chores: tracking encumbrance and spell components.

Unfortunately, I'm used to the lazy way of just subtracting cash when the spell calls for money. I almost want to house-rule material components away, except for the disproportionate effect that would have on higher level spells.

Eh, as a longtime caster player, I've never found it was a particular chore to keep track of. There aren't that many spells that have expensive material components and a lot of them use the same stuff--e.g., the raise dead/resurrection line all use diamond dust, as does restoration, so all you have to do is track your supply of diamond dust and all those spells are covered.

Now, if you had to track the non-expensive components too, that would be a royal pain, but that's why 3E introduced the five-gold-piece spell component pouch.

Ah, so you go for the 'sudden flash of inspiration grants you a level all at once' approach. Ok. I look at earning experience as the gradual gaining of experience in his trade, so when you lose XP it doesn't make a lot of sense.

XP is an abstraction. In the game world, yes, the character is gradually gaining experience in his or her trade, but none of that experience has any effect on game mechanics until you hit the next level. How fast or slow you're learning is never really quantified until you level up.

If you "lose XP" to item-crafting, that means it's taking you a little longer to improve your skills, because the time that you would otherwise spend practicing spells and studying ancient tomes is being spent on making a fancy sword for your fighter buddy. You aren't actually losing experience, you're just retroactively not gaining it.

That's why the XP loss can't take you down a level; the experience that earned you your class levels has been made concrete. It's established that your character knows how to cast 5th-level spells, and you can't retcon that knowledge away. What hasn't been established yet is how close you are to 6th-level spells.

[horseboy]

XP is an abstraction. In the game world, yes, the character is gradually gaining experience in his or her trade, but none of that experience has any effect on game mechanics until you hit the next level. How fast or slow you're learning is never really quantified until you level up.

If you "lose XP" to item-crafting, that means it's taking you a little longer to improve your skills, because the time that you would otherwise spend practicing spells and studying ancient tomes is being spent on making a fancy sword for your fighter buddy. You aren't actually losing experience, you're just retroactively not gaining it.

That's why the XP loss can't take you down a level; the experience that earned you your class levels has been made concrete. It's established that your character knows how to cast 5th-level spells, and you can't retcon that knowledge away. What hasn't been established yet is how close you are to 6th-level spells.

And it beats loosing 1 point of Con every time you make something.

[Raolin_Fenix]

As a footnote, I love the spells that specify a requirement for "a diamond worth at least 1000 GP, which the wizard crushes into powder between his finger and thumb in the process of spellcasting." If I could crush diamonds with my fingers, I wouldn't be screwing around with a spell (or wasting diamonds to do it). I'd just walk up and squash my enemies, because my skin cannot be broken and I could flick them into pulp.

Can't think of the spells that require that, off the top of my head, but it amuses me.

[BardicDuelist]

And the GMs I know wouldn't let you retroactively buy something from town three days ago to cast a spell now. When the orcs attack, can the fighter retroactively buy an orc-bane sword?

Actually, I do assume that the caster has all necessary components to cast his spells. This includes focuses for all spells known that require them, and generally all material components, unless I see a reason why it wouldn't be available to him. It is considerably easier than keeping track of all of the material components that one would need to cast every spell in a dungeon.

I just deduct the gold from his or the party's funds. It is only in rare cases that I don't just do this (such as with raise dead spells). Those are usually for plot reasons, or some other purpose, not to make my players manage their material components better.