Replacing Magic with... Magic? [Semi-Setting]

[ilovefire]

Well, I was just thinking, after reading the Warblade's 'Adaptation' blurb in BoNS, on replacing magic with... magic. Hear me out.

In this world, Clerics, Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers, Warmages, Favored Souls... if it is a full caster, it does not exist--except in the hands of the Ultra-Elite. There is excactly one person in the world per full caster class that IS a full caster. And they are the leaders--the Emperors, the Tyrants. One wizard, one cleric, one druid... (And I count the Shadowcaster as a fullcaster, so...)

Well, the Average People (Adventurers, too) Adapted. They developed ways to achieve supernatural power through language (truenaming), the binding of these strange nonbeings called vestiges (binding), shaping pure soul-energy into magical items (meldshaping), channeling hte powers of naturally-magical entities into eldritch abilites (variant Warlock that dosen't have to have fiendish heritage or be CG, TN, CN, LE, NE, or CE.), manipulating the world through music (bards), totemic worship and emulation of dragons (Dragon Shamen and Dragonfire adepts), and by using pure martial prowess in order to overcome the shortcomings of a lack of mystical might (Martial Adepts, minus the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand schools.)

Now, most people in this setting would know SOME of at least one of these. (IE, the standard commoner would actually be a Commoner 1/one of the above classes 1.) As a matter of fact, these classes are very common. Extremely Common. The average population has 100% of it's people with a level in one of the aforementioned classes. This makes this a high-magic setting.

But at the same time, it would be low-magic. No wizards, druids, clerics, warmages, shadowcasters, artificiers, favoured souls, dread necromancers, archivists... No full casts. At all.

Has this been done before? If so, was it successful? If not, do you think this may be an interesting idea to try and implement?

[Skjaldbakka]

(Martial Adepts, minus the setting sun and shadow hand schools.)

Just curious why you're dropping the setting sun school. Its the Desert Wind School that is the flashy su. ability school (that and shadow hand). Setting Sun is about counters, most of which are not supernatural.

[ilovefire]

Ah, I meant Desert Wind. Ig et the two mixed up sometimes... going to edit now. Any other thoughts, though?

[The_Werebear]

Interesting, for certain.

It does feed into the idea that if you aren't a full caster, you are essentially screwed. Magic items would also be in a rather limited supply as well. The Full casters would have better things to do than crank out dozens of Rings of Protection +1's.

[Gralamin]

And whenever their is a lack of magic items, Meldshapers do well.

It sounds interesting, thats for sure. Any Psionics?

[tannish2]

from what i remember warlocks can make items like artificers onece they hit level 12... or maybe they can just use them as if they had that class, idk, anyway, will it have artificers? it would add magic items back in, but there would still be many of the difficulties of a low magic campaign, like not being able to get a rez, or a restoration anywhere, teleporting being a bit lmiited, to small distances by warlocks and shadowdancers, otherwise terribly expensive, and the lack of healing, it might be a fun campaign

[HidaTsuzua]

It does sound similar to a humor campaign I was thinking about running. Long ago, the world was peaceful. People practices psience and all was well. Bards lived happily as they practiced their own unique type of magic.

But then the Trio came. Wizards, Clerics, and Druids come to the world and unleashed their powers upon it. Victorious, they stopped out psionics. Then a small group learned the secret to psionics (the PCs) and will bring the fight back to the Trio.

It would have been a cheesy Wizard/Cleric/Druid game vs the PC type of game going for in-game metagame commenting, the Tower of the Warbler King, and other oddities. I might run a PbP of it at some point.

[Jimp]

Paint me a curious shade of intrigued!

I'd actually be very interested in this kind of setting. A lot of the semi-casters that you have listed are my favourite classes

[Everyman]

Wow...that's an interesting set-up.

How exactly do you plan on handling equipment? Can I assume that public magic gear is probably of warlock-make?

[selfcritical]

Well, I was just thinking, after reading the Warblade's 'Adaptation' blurb in BoNS, on replacing magic with... magic. Hear me out.

In this world, Clerics, Wizards, Druids, Sorcerers, Warmages, Favored Souls... if it is a full caster, it does not exist--except in the hands of the Ultra-Elite. There is excactly one person in the world per full caster class that IS a full caster. And they are the leaders--the Emperors, the Tyrants. One wizard, one cleric, one druid... (And I count the Shadowcaster as a fullcaster, so...)

Well, the Average People (Adventurers, too) Adapted. They developed ways to achieve supernatural power through language (truenaming), the binding of these strange nonbeings called vestiges (binding), shaping pure soul-energy into magical items (meldshaping), channeling hte powers of naturally-magical entities into eldritch abilites (variant Warlock that dosen't have to have fiendish heritage or be CG, TN, CN, LE, NE, or CE.), manipulating the world through music (bards), totemic worship and emulation of dragons (Dragon Shamen and Dragonfire adepts), and by using pure martial prowess in order to overcome the shortcomings of a lack of mystical might (Martial Adepts, minus the Desert Wind and Shadow Hand schools.)

Now, most people in this setting would know SOME of at least one of these. (IE, the standard commoner would actually be a Commoner 1/one of the above classes 1.) As a matter of fact, these classes are very common. Extremely Common. The average population has 100% of it's people with a level in one of the aforementioned classes. This makes this a high-magic setting.

But at the same time, it would be low-magic. No wizards, druids, clerics, warmages, shadowcasters, artificiers, favoured souls, dread necromancers, archivists... No full casts. At all.

Has this been done before? If so, was it successful? If not, do you think this may be an interesting idea to try and implement?

I think keeping the contact with nonhuman entities requirement for warlocks works pretty well here. Someone so bent on striking back at their magely overlords that they will make themselves inhuman

[selfcritical]

Idea! When last a crack unit of the greatest warriors in the world(Lvl 20 fighters) confronte Arius, the Throne of Wizardy, they were tossed around by his fell magics like so much hay. As Arius froze his limbs wracked his body with pain, the Captain of Red Company find a moment of eerie calm, and walked forward, unheld by the eldritch weave. In the fleeting moments before the Throne's summoned beasts finished ripping him apart, he uttered the procphecy of the Sword Saint "You pour unnatural energies into the world, make it dance, and presume your knowledge is without peer, you understanding without fault. There lay greater truths, and wisdom beyond your feeble means. When one has mastered the Sword above all others, the secrets of Creation will unfold before him, and all your petty tricks will be as nothing. The time is at hand."

All across the world, men who held their blades, who sought them not only as tools, but as instruments of mastery, heard the call. Something whispered and drew them out to the road, to seek perfection of technique, and to test their steel against one another, until one would be without peer.

{orgin story for Martial adepts}

[Roderick_BR]

Making the full casters into "elite NPC classes"? I guess some DMs do that sometimes (I plan in making a campaign with mainly ToB classes, with the only caster being bards or classes with half casting level, and having the full caster as NPCs)

[ilovefire]

Gralamin: Yes, there are psionics, but full-manifestation classes (Psions, Wilders, and I forget if anything in CP is full-manifestation) follow the same rules as the full-caster classes.

Tarkahn: As one of the Full caster Important NPCs would be an Artificier, and as noted warlocks can function as artificiers in a limited fashion once they hit 12, magic loot would be handled similiarly as normal, but a bit weaker and rarer (IE: Maximum weapon or armor bonus (including special abilities) would be +5, not +10. Maximum bonus on statboosters +2... basically, halve everything and round down when needed. Magic Items would cost 1.1 times the normal amount, but with the limit on bonuses they would not be to expensive I think.)

Selfcritical: I like that idea for a creation-story for the Martial Adepts. Consider it borrowed, with your permission, if you odn't mind.

[mostlyharmful]

Just fluff wize, how come the Uber-classes aren't accessable to most? Outsider curse/bloodline requirement? Lack of the godly permission? key info. kept secret except for a tiny elite?

If the PCs cant have them (great idea) then the question becomes why, if clerics just need to BELIEVE really strongly and Wizards just need the right books and practise do you have some kind of secret police hunting upstarts or a devine edict limiting numbers of each class?

Edit: halving or otherwise cranking down the WBL guidelines also radically reduce the range of available cheese and mean the economy doesn't tremble at the nknees whenever a midlevel party does a single dungeon crawl.

[ilovefire]

MostlyHarmful: Fluff-wise, it would be for different reasons. for the Scholarly-Types (Wizards, Artificiers, Psions, Archivists, anything INT-based.), it is because it is a closely-guarded secret that was sworn after a large war to only be passed on to one person--and one person only, and then only near the current possessors death. (Possibly because of a large war in the past involving magical energies.)

For the Belief-Types (WIS-based casters), it would be because the single pantheon of gods in this setting would declare only ONE mortal at a time as a true enough believe to recieve their full divine powers, due to the aforementioned war, where Clerics on all sides waged great havok. Of course, you get the non-cleric divine casters--those sort of sneak through the cracks of divine energy, but there's still only one for much the same reasons--whatever they believe in will only let one being have it's full power.

For the Inborn-Types (CHA based), it would be a curse that there would only ever be one, and that one the firstborn child of the previous owner of that power, or the nearest person to them on their death if they had no children. The curse would have been placed by the Scholarly-Types to insure that the Great War of magic would never be repeated again, if they could help it.

[mostlyharmful]

MostlyHarmful: Fluff-wise, it would be for different reasons. for the Scholarly-Types (Wizards, Artificiers, Psions, Archivists, anything INT-based.), it is because it is a closely-guarded secret that was sworn after a large war to only be passed on to one person--and one person only, and then only near the current possessors death. (Possibly because of a large war in the past involving magical energies.)

For the Belief-Types (WIS-based casters), it would be because the single pantheon of gods in this setting would declare only ONE mortal at a time as a true enough believe to recieve their full divine powers, due to the aforementioned war, where Clerics on all sides waged great havok.

For the Inborn-Types (CHA based), it would be a curse that there would only ever be one, and that one the firstborn child of the previous owner of that power, or the nearest person to them on their death if they had no children. The curse would have been placed by the Scholarly-Types to insure that the Great War of magic would never be repeated again, if they could help it.

Perfect, thought out and comprehensive with flavourful fluff and considered cruch,

[Roderick_BR]

It doesn't even need to be so hard to have few full casters.
Wizards would require a special "gift", other than being able to read, like in Lord of the Rings, where there is only a handful of wizards in the world. It just isn't for anyone.

For inborn casters, there would just be very few people to actually gain powers.

For the believers, the "god's chosen" idea works neatly. You'd have to allow the non-lawful good paladin variants too, so any deity and religion has his "holy warriors". The only difference is that people with access to raw power (clerics, druids) would be a few selected.

I'm yoinking these ideas for my campaigns

[ilovefire]

Roderick: Yeah, I usually allow the non-LG versions of Paladins--it only makes sense to me. (I don't really like the alignment system that well anyway, but eh)

Standard Believers could be anything, of course. Devout Believers would be Adepts. Martial Believers would be Paladins, Rangers, Monks, or devout Fighters.

And I'm glad I managed to help you with your campaign! I'm planning on fleshing this idea out into a full-fledged campaign setting,b ut that will probably take awhile, since school just got in for me.

[puppyavenger]

great isea but what about the creatures with monsters with inborn casting like dragons and rashaka?

[mostlyharmful]

just cause they're in the MM doesn't mean they exist. And if they do then they become something that armies take on with siege equipment and devine aide rather than a DnD PC team monstrous BBEG

[puppyavenger]

So they hunted and killed opff a race that at it's most powerful can probably figure out what you are going to do with your life by watching you for a day and then convince you to commit suicide with a single sentance?

[ilovefire]

none of the above, from how I see it--these races are just very, very rare, so do their work in secret, whatever their work may be, revealing themselves to certain people in order to allow those people to channel their power (warlocks.) Of cousre, then those warlocks could, concievably, use a mixture of blood ritual and knowledge-passing to allow others to use the power--hence how common they are.

[puppyavenger]

any ideas on how dragons relate to the sorceror?

[ilovefire]

I was never much for the dragon's blood explanation of sorcerers... I much prefered there to be no true explanation, but a whole bunch of conflicting theories. Keeps the academics busy, it does.

[puppyavenger]

sorry for the unclear question, would the powers consider them threats to be killed, peers to be traded with, strange things to be ignored or curiosities to be examined?

[selfcritical]

MostlyHarmful: Fluff-wise, it would be for different reasons. for the Scholarly-Types (Wizards, Artificiers, Psions, Archivists, anything INT-based.), it is because it is a closely-guarded secret that was sworn after a large war to only be passed on to one person--and one person only, and then only near the current possessors death. (Possibly because of a large war in the past involving magical energies.)

For the Belief-Types (WIS-based casters), it would be because the single pantheon of gods in this setting would declare only ONE mortal at a time as a true enough believe to recieve their full divine powers, due to the aforementioned war, where Clerics on all sides waged great havok. Of course, you get the non-cleric divine casters--those sort of sneak through the cracks of divine energy, but there's still only one for much the same reasons--whatever they believe in will only let one being have it's full power.

For the Inborn-Types (CHA based), it would be a curse that there would only ever be one, and that one the firstborn child of the previous owner of that power, or the nearest person to them on their death if they had no children. The curse would have been placed by the Scholarly-Types to insure that the Great War of magic would never be repeated again, if they could help it.

If hitting all classes, you'd have two full divine casters- One cleric and one favored soul- The Heirophant and the Prophet.

[puppyavenger]

If hitting all classes, you'd have two full divine casters- One cleric and one favored soul- The Heirophant and the Prophet.

And the druid.

[selfcritical]

I was never much for the dragon's blood explanation of sorcerers... I much prefered there to be no true explanation, but a whole bunch of conflicting theories. Keeps the academics busy, it does.

When there's just the one, explanations make a bit more sense. When there's just the one, blood of dragons isn't cool enough. Blood of Tiamat, however.......

[Sulecrist]

And the druid.

And the Archivist.

[goat]

Hmm, truenamers played RAW WITHOUT relatively easy access to skill-boosting kit are going to be even more crippled.