Can a paladin keep her identity a secret?

[AslanCross]

I was writing up some NPCs for my campaign, and came up with the following idea. My campaign is set in Cormyr in the Forgotten Realms, but I'm pretty sure this idea can be applied to any setting if it does indeed fly.

1. Ms. Paladin meets Mr. Paladin during a crusade, falls in love with him, and they get married. They come from two different but allied paladin orders. (The guy is a Paladin of Tyr, and the girl is a Paladin of Torm).
2. They move to a new land (in this case, Suzail in Cormyr). The guy remains a paladin of Tyr and is known commonly as such, while Mrs. Paladin takes on a different identity: That of a swashbuckler. She is still known to be Mr. Paladin's wife, but the feeling she gives off to everyone is that she is a CG adventuring swashbuckler (maybe even CN) who never spends time with her husband.
3. The truth is that Mrs. Paladin is still very much an LG Paladin, but has levels in Gray Guard (Complete Scoundrel paladin PrC that allows a looser interpretation of paladin duty). As such she often goes around town disguised as Mr. Paladin's sour-faced, obese maid to collect information and spy on nobles that are suspected of corruption and treasonous activities. Alternatively she appears in her Swashbuckler adventurer outfit in the tavern. Still, Mrs. Paladin networks with her husband's order to disseminate information she's uncovered.
In other words, she's conceptually similar to Bruce Wayne.

Does Mrs. Paladin still make sense as an actual paladin?

[JellyPooga]

Yeah, I don't see why not.

Contrary to popular belief, the Paladin class does not have 'Stick up your Butt' as a class feature. Nor does it require your character to be a "Holier-than-thou-clad-in-full-plate-armour-wielding-a-greatsword-screaming- blue-murder-'cos-that-guy-over-there-registered-evil-on-his-evilometer" type guy.

The only (real) requirement for being a Paladin is that you be an active force for Good in the world. How you go about it is up to you.

Mrs. Paladin sounds like a good character concept to me.

[Zincorium]

As truthfulness is an important concept for a paladin to take to heart, if not an actual requirement, 'ol Mrs. Paladin should make an attempt to avert the truth as little as she can get away with and still maintain a low profile. There's no reason for a paladin to be blatant about the position and requirements of his/her duties, and a bit of circumstantial misdirection is certainly okay, but if the time comes when she must decide whether to remain true to the ideals or continue the masquerade, the ideals should come first. Even doubt in this matter is unbefitting a paladin.

Just make sure to take care and view everything in terms of whether it's truly right or not. Most players know what's in the best interest of the greater good, whether they act on it is what determines the ease they can play a paladin with. I personally have very high standards for a paladin's mortal decisions, but at the same time I don't make it too hard, if nothing else a paladin has the deities of goodness and light to fall back upon when the way becomes clouded and uncertain.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, a paladin does not have to truthfully answer the question of "what character class are you", since that question doesn't make any sense in character.

[The White Knight]

Well, a paladin does not have to truthfully answer the question of "what character class are you", since that question doesn't make any sense in character.

Aye, but the question "Are you a Paladin?" can arguably hold merit, where "Are you a Rogue?" does not.

[Wulfram]

A true Paladin could conceivably go undercover, but would be very bad at maintaining a false identity for very long. They're still bound by their code, which ties them very much to a LG persona.

CG would be maintainable a quite a bit longer than CN, but people are going to catch on eventually.

Of course, the Grey Guard class is all about getting around the Code*, but it's still problematic. You still need a good reason to violate it, and I don't think a desire not to be known as a Paladin really qualifies, unless the revelation of your status would directly endanger lives.

*which is why I don't consider them true paladins, not that this is really relevant.

[Citizen Joe]

Actually, if you're portraying a swashbuckler and someone asks if you're a paladin you could act all sarcastic, say "Pfft... Yea... sure, I'M a paladin." and then mimic walking around with a holier than thou attitude.

Or you could say, "A paladin? You mean like those guys in tin cans swinging a great sword and spouting all that religious stuff? No, I'm not one of them."

Unfortunately, it all boils down to a bluff/sense motive check

[AslanCross]

I tend to summarize the paladin's code as doing what is good, what is lawful, and what is honorable.
Here are the justifications I can think of:
1. It is a good act because it actively seeks out what is evil in the system and exposes it in order to destroy it.
2. It is a good act because it is protective not only of Mrs. Paladin but the safety of common people who might get caught up into the whole political mess if they knew what Mrs. Paladin was doing.
3. It is a lawful act because Mrs. Paladin does this to weed out the bad parts of the government.
4. It is a lawful act because Mrs. Paladin still does not take matters into her own hands and allows due process to continue.
5. It is honorable because Mrs. Paladin does this at great personal risk, and I daresay greater than being on active police duty. Being in the center of the mess, if her cover is blown it would be over for her very quickly.
6. It is honorable because Mrs. Paladin does not use her cover to assassinate evil nobles or even threaten them into submission.

That said, the Gray Guard's Lv 1 class feature lessens the impact of dishonorable actions that have been committed on behalf of the paladin's cause and faith. (Ie, stabbing an evil cleric in his sleep, or doing this.)
You still end up falling, but atoning is easier. At Lv 10 you don't need to atone at all, as long as your actions were done for your cause and faith. Of course, this doesn't excuse outright immoral actions like slaughtering an orphanage.
Also, Bluff, Disguise, and Forgery are among the Gray Guard's class skills. In any case I still don't think Mrs. Paladin is even in danger of falling as long as she stays within the six parameters I outlined above.

[The Prince of Cats]

Honesty may be a virtue, but being forthright is not a requirement. The trick would be less denying what she is and more keeping the question from ever coming up.

A paladin should never profit from deceit, but I see no reason why a paladin must put their life or their mission/cause in jeopardy for the sake of honesty. Lawful good is not lawful stupid...

[AdversusVeritas]

3. It is a lawful act because Mrs. Paladin does this to weed out the bad parts of the government.
4. It is a lawful act because Mrs. Paladin still does not take matters into her own hands and allows due process to continue.

With this sort of justification, I'd allow it in any of my games. After all, we have law enforcement officers who do this sort of thing in the real world. I'd probably want the PC to be doing her investigations as part of her order rather than acting on her own, but I don't automatically chalk up any lying as unlawful. For example, lying to protect your family is dishonest, but it is also loyal, so I wouldn't automatically consider it unlawful.

[Everyman]

Frankly, this is one of the most interesting paladin NPCs I've ever seen. Not only does your NPC have her own unique traits, but she isn't breaking the code. Bending it perhaps...but not breaking it.

The only part of the official paladin code that she is a bit wobbly on is the "act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)" part. Frankly, I think requiring paladins to tell the truth CONSTANTLY is just too much for anyone to expect. Yes, your NPC might be misleading people around her a bit, but I wouldn't exactly equate that with dishonesty. Since she's a Grey Guard, I see no reason to penalize her.

Nice NPC.

[Stephen_E]

As a Paladin I'd consider what she's doing ok so long as she doesn't flat out lie. A decent Bluff skill would be a good idea, but yeah, even if someone asks if she's a paladin, the simple answer is "Of course I'm a paladin!" with a smile and a chuckle. She tells the truth, and in most situations she's going to get a whopping bonus to her bluff simply because people will assume that no one hiding their identity wil openly tell you so with a simple question.

Of course if you're using that abortion of a Paladin prestige class called the Grey Guard, anything goes. (In case it's not clear I think the designer of that class suffered from "I want to play evil PCs but claim to be a saint!" syndrome.)

Stephen

[Person_Man]

Why would a Paladin of Torm the True choose to live such an un-Paladin-like lifestyle? Wouldn't it require constant lying and duplicity? And why would she take such a passive role? Gray Guard lets you skirt your Paladin code, but it doesn't remove the basic motivation for being a Paladin in the first place.

And how is it logistically possible? Where is she getting so many ranks in Disguise and Bluff? If she's living and working in this area for a long period with two persona, maintaining an alter ego without magical aid is impossible. Statistically, its only a matter of time before you rolls poorly on her Disguise check and someone else rolls high on their Spot check. Then her cover is blown.

Maybe if she were a Paladin of some other god. And maybe if she has access to Alter Self. Interesting idea, but it just doesn't gel for me personally.

[MrNexx]

FWIW, I've seen a couple alternate Paladin codes recently; one of them I think would make this difficult, the other would not.

The first is based on the 8 virtues of Ultima; Compassion, Honesty, Honor, Humility, Justice, Sacrifice, Spirituality, and Valor. I think the strict interpretation of honesty that this code has would make this kind of long-term deception untenable.

The second is a bit simpler, and a bit more flexible. It's the simple question "What Would Superman Do?" If it's something Superman would do, it's allowed to a paladin. Since we know Superman has a penchant for disguises as a way of gathering information, it would be acceptable to a WWSD paladin.

I could see a Torm paladin being of the WWSD type; the importance is the duty owed to one's superiors. An excerpt from "Faiths and Avatars" (the 2nd edition version of Faiths and Pantheons, but whereas F&P put everything in one book, the deity trilogy in 2nd edition spread it over 3 books FILLED with detail).

A few adventuring Tormtar are permitted more leeway in their personal deeds than other clergy of the faith, but in return for this personal discretion as to their activities, they are pledged to tithe heavily (60% or more, plus payment for magical aid) to the church and to observe and report back on all they can of regions, beasts, and concerns their brethern seldom see so that the church of Torm can know Faerun as well as possible (despite the static demands of guardianship). Torm himself often speaks to his clergy members to provide guidance and to reassure doubtful priests that a fellow Tormtar who is an adventurer is allowed to act thus and so in Torm's full favor (or that Torm is displeased and the following penance shall be placed on the individual).

[hewhosaysfish]

Why would a Paladin of Torm the True choose to live such an un-Paladin-like lifestyle?

From dictionary.com

true
–adjective
1. being in accordance with the actual state or conditions; conforming to reality or fact; not false: a true story....

...4. firm in allegiance; loyal; faithful; steadfast: a true friend....

I think they call him "the True" with the latter meaning, being god og duty and all. Which isn't to say that he's not truthful but no more so than any other LG god or most LN ones or even some of the LE ones.

[AslanCross]

Point taken on the alter self thing. I was thinking that she already moved into the city in her swashbuckler guise and never ever appeared as a paladin, not even in private. Since she's an NPC and does most of this "off-screen," I'd say that she doesn't roll disguise and bluff checks in the first place. (Though that may be a flimsy excuse.)

IMO people wouldn't be making spot and sense motive checks against her in the first place because they have nothing to base their suspicions on. She wouldn't be lying to anyone's face. (Except perhaps in the event that she asks a wrong question, and she may be discovered---plot hook for PCs.)

As far as I can tell, Torm's "The True" epithet refers to duty, not necessarily truthfulness. (ie, his other epithet, "The Loyal Fury")
Quoted from Faiths and Pantheons:

Dogma: Salvation may be found through service. Every failure of duty diminishes Torm and every success adds to his luster. Strive to maintain law and order. Obey your masters with anticipation. Stand ever alert against corruption. Strike quickly and forcefully against rot in the hearts of mortals. Bring painful, quick death to traitors. Question unjust laws by suggesting improvement or alternatives, not additional laws. Your fourfold duties are to faith, family, masters, and all good beings of Faerun.

Then there's the Debts:
The Debt of Persecution: Aid the establishment of good faiths to repay the persecution of other goodly religions.
The Debt of Dereliction: Expend every resource possible to eliminate the cults of Cyric and Bane, and work against the Zhentarim.
The Debt of Destruction: The clergy must record locations of dead and wild magic areas and do what they can to heal the wounds of the Weave.
Stand vigilant against corruption within goodly organizations.

[Telonius]

It's the simple question "What Would Superman Do?" If it's something Superman would do, it's allowed to a paladin.

What? Why, I'm just a mild-mannered reporter.

I'd say this paladin would be allowed under that rationale.

[Renegade Paladin]

I see two hangups here.

1.) The idea that you need to be a gray guard to do this kind of thing. You don't. In fact, the class sucks. The only thing it lets you get away with is stuff that blatantly violates the code, though theoretically only when you have a good reason. And if your reason is good enough (and the act doesn't involve sacrificing puppies and orphans) a reasonable DM will probably be easy on you.

2.) It's the paladin of Torm that's doing this? Dude, Torm is all about righteousness, chivalry, truth, duty, and all the other stereotypical knightly jazz. Tyrrans are a lot more likely to go in for that kind of thing. Torm wouldn't drop her from the roster for it I think, but he wouldn't exactly approve. When I made a paladin with this character concept, I specifically made him a Tyrran rather than a Tormite or Lathanderite like I usually play especially because of this concern.

Other than that, no, I don't see how this violates your average paladin's code.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Recently, I played a Paladin doing some undercover snooping to solve a series of robberies. In a sense, he bluffed his way through a couple criminal contacts through half-truths and leading questions: "I'm looking for <stolen item>", which the unwitting informant assumed meant he wanted to buy it. He never lied, nor would he have if asked a direct "are you a Paladin?" or "are you working with the cops?" question, and all he did to disguise himself was tuck his holy symbol under his collar and scuff up his armor a little. Still, he did feel bad about the deception through omission involved, and wondered after catching the criminal if there wasn't a more Good/honorable way of handling it. But I have a fairly lenient DM, and we're in a fairly lenient setting, so I'm only in trouble if I want to use it as a plot hook.

[Kurald Galain]

As a Paladin I'd consider what she's doing ok so long as she doesn't flat out lie.

Well, no. The loophole that "you weren't technically lying because..." does not change the fact that you're actively trying to deceive someone. I'm not saying paladins can never lie (except if their stick is big enough), but hiding behind the letter of the law to break the spirit of the law is not virtuous.

[bugsysservant]

For most paladins, especially grey guards, you can feel free to hide your identity. But a paladin of Torm... I don't know. Does she have a good reason for acting like a swashbuckler, like infiltrating a ring of slavers? Does she do it for fun (which is chaotic anyway)? If she has a reason, I would allow it, though I would be wary of doing so because of her god, and if not, I would say she couldn't.

[BelFire]

Hmmm....as for paladins, whenever I've played them I was taught by my DM that the rules of the code are not created by man. Man is falable (spelling?). Its your deity who desides what is and what isn't against the rules. If the PC's feel dooped, tough s***. Lol, I guess the real question is as stated before, to pick apart the lawful and good axis and see if she measures up. I know that it is not uncommon for authorities to go under cover, without magical aid. And I honostly believe that it gets easier for them (bonus to bluff checks yo). This doesn't mean that they have lost their way. It means that they are doing a horrible job because by doing so they can get an shot glass more of descency then the next guy. Some mass media examples, Jack Bauer from 24. He goes under cover because its better that he be there to save lives then anyone else. Or Jason Bourne, from the books not the movies. He went undercover and lived his lie for three years, all for the end game. Is your paladin lawful? Does she follow a set of rules, stand for order, and believe it is wholly better for everyone that that order remains? Is she good? Does she do what she does to protect people? Would she give her life to save one of the criminals she hunts? Lol, sorry, I'm babbling. Over all this is an awesome PC.

[calebcom]

As far as any paladin I've ever played is concerned and any Paladin in any game I've ever run is concerned.


Good>Lawful


If being Lawful is going to get people killed just because it's "Honorable" My paladins will do what NEEDS to be done to see to it lives are saved and evil is stopped.

They'll always try the honorable way if they can, but if the only way to stop the BBEG who's slaughtering orphanages full of kids is to lie my way into his fortress and kill him in his sleep. I and my Paladins would do it in a heartbeat.

What's more honorable? Stopping a murderer, or letting him go because your "Honor" gets in the way.


Evil is Selfish. If your personal honor gets in the way of you saving someones life, you've just committed a very selfish and thereby evil act.




Very nice PC, I don't see why that PC needs Grey Guard though.

[Arbitrarity]

Mmm. That's my interpretation as well, but I'd prefer to think that my paladin would fall for such an action. He's dropping the lawful for the good, but it's still showing a non-lawful bent. Such an action should be rare, and he should atone for it.

[Person_Man]

The second is a bit simpler, and a bit more flexible. It's the simple question "What Would Superman Do?" If it's something Superman would do, it's allowed to a paladin.

Great, now I have the overwhelmingly urge to play a Paladin that can shoot lasers from his eyes.

Cleric 5/Prestige Paladin 3/Full caster progression PrC X with access to the Destruction domain (Disintegrate) and the Ocular Spell feat (so that you can store two castings of Disintegrate in your eyes).


Back on topic, keeping her true identity secret from the get go would solve the Disguise problem in most circumstances (unless someone from out of town who has seen you before visits). But you're still going to have to make constant Bluff checks in your interactions. If you fail a Diplomacy check, then the person you're talking to doesn't necessarily do what you want. But if you fail a Bluff check (which is an opposed roll, unlike Diplomacy), then the person you're talking to doesn't believe you and will usually be too suspicious to continue interacting. Certainly its do-able if you're careful about the circumstances. But it will definitely be a very roleplaying heavy game.

[Wulfram]

I'm struggling to see the point of the swashbuckler guise. No one who's up to any serious mischief is going to confide in a Good aligned Paladin's spouse, even if she is an independent adventurer.

I'd have thought she'd be better off having a nice varied set of alter-egos who are free of ties to Paladins, and who can be easily dumped when the Code makes it necessary to break character.

[MrNexx]

Great, now I have the overwhelmingly urge to play a Paladin that can shoot lasers from his eyes.

Cleric 5/Prestige Paladin 3/Full caster progression PrC X with access to the Destruction domain (Disintegrate) and the Ocular Spell feat (so that you can store two castings of Disintegrate in your eyes).

Try a Radiant Servant of Pelor; you get Searing Light as a SLA.

[Roderick_BR]

"Are you a rogue?"
"No."

"Are you a paladin?"
"I'm a warrior. That's all you need to know."

"Do you follow a deity?"
"My beliefs are not in check here."

Direct responses that while are avoiding the truth, are not lies.
If he has a reason to stay undercover, a DM could allow it for RP purposes.

[tannish2]

greygaurd turns the stick up a paladins ass from oak to a flexible plastic, and if you take more it completely removes it, or instead use paladin of freedom from unearthed arcana, then theres that whole "staff of attonement" thing that could work

[AslanCross]

Thanks for all the responses, guys. This discussion has been very helpful. I might reconsider her being an agent of Torm, that part isn't really necessary.

This NPC was meant to be the mentor of a PC paladin of Torm whose player wanted to eventually make him a gray guard. It will be very difficult for the PCs to get her true identity as the common folk thinks she's a CG swashbuckler who is all but estranged from her husband. (She is not, in fact she goes home every night.) Mr. Paladin never lies ("She is an ally of justice" or "She is a force of mysterious righteousness."), but of course he protects her identity.

Still, as far as I can tell, the dogma of Torm's church is duty. I haven't seen more specific material that says it involves always being forthright.