Is there an official Neutral god?

[The Eye]

Is there an official Neutral god, in the sense it's not a god of balance or a god who is not strongly pro or against good and evil but a God who believes that the notion of Good and evil is not real and must educate the other races that evil and good are nothing but perspectives? is there such thing?

It can be form anywhere, D&D, pathfinder, rela myths or any obscure literature books.

[GungHo]

Is there an official Neutral god, i the sense it's not a god of balance or a god who is not strongly pro or against good and evil but a God who believes that the notion of Good and evil is not real and must educate the other races that evil and good are nothing but perspectives? is there such thing?

It can be form anywhere, D&D, pathfinder, rela myths or any obscure literature books.

Nothing i am really aware of in Pathfinder, Forgotten Realms, or Dragonlance.

Pathfinder Neutrals are more gods of nature or concepts. Nethys and Gozreh are close to "two halves of the same coin". Pharasma just wants a natural cycle of life.

FR neutrals are likewise natural or conceptual. The closest would have been Tyche before she was split, but she was joined as fate rather than a "this is all an illusion" thing.

Dragonlance neutrals just wanted to keep the universe balanced, as all good or all evil both lead to horrible consequences.

[Darth Ultron]

I don't think so....good and evil ARE real in the game. They are not just ''made up things''. There are plenty of neutral gods, but none have that type of ''anything is whatever I say it is until I say it is not'' kind of real world thinking.

[Red Fel]

Yeah, there are plenty of gods of balance, but technically, in any setting where objective morality is a thing, objective morality is a thing.

Now, a god of balance who avoids leaning Good or Evil for any number of reasons? There are plenty of those. Apathetic gods of knowledge. Opportunistic gods of mercantile. Equal-opportunity gods of death. But within any system where alignment is an explicit and quantifiable force, the only gods who would advocate the position of "Good and Evil are just constructs" are gods of madness, who are themselves in denial about the absolute fundamental forces of their universe.

Outside of settings with an objective alignment system, your question becomes meaningless. Where there are no objective measures of Good and Evil, there isn't a measure of Neutral either, and thus no Neutral deity to espouse those opinions.

[The Eye]

That's what I thought. Thanks anyway.

[Segev]

Io, the Concordant Dragon, is a neutral god of balance.

Boccob, the god of wizards and knowledge, is a neutral god of I-don't-care-about-morality-just-let-me-study-darn-it.

[Eldan]

The Rilmani are outsiders who actively fight for neutrality. Sadly, they never got much material aside from a few mentions in Planescape.

[tomandtish]

Is there an official Neutral god, in the sense it's not a god of balance or a god who is not strongly pro or against good and evil but a God who believes that the notion of Good and evil is not real and must educate the other races that evil and good are nothing but perspectives? is there such thing?

It can be form anywhere, D&D, pathfinder, rela myths or any obscure literature books.

As Red Fel noted, the issue isn't that there aren't gods of balance. There are a few.

The issue is that there aren't any balance gods who actively deny that good and evil are real. To do that would be to deny the actual nature of quite a few of the outer planes. In D&D, good and evil have objective weight, so a god that denied their existance would either be insane or so focused on their portfolio (which would not be balance) that they are apathetic everywhere else.

[LibraryOgre]

This is something of a scenario that crops up in comics and annoys me to no end.

You have a cop in the standard DC or Marvel universe who encounters, say, a dragon corpse. He then denies that it could be a dragon corpse, because there's no such things as dragons. Like, Thor was literally interviewed on the news last night, after saving Earth from an invasion by trolls. Fin Fang Foom is a thing. And you're going to say that dragons don't exist and expect me to take you seriously?

[HappyElf]

If you change it from "good and evil are constructs" to "good and evil are irrelevant and we should replace them with better systems", I guess Obad-Hai and Wee Jas are probably the closest of the greyhawk gods (which are the only ones I know)

[Mr Beer]

This is something of a scenario that crops up in comics and annoys me to no end.

You have a cop in the standard DC or Marvel universe who encounters, say, a dragon corpse. He then denies that it could be a dragon corpse, because there's no such things as dragons. Like, Thor was literally interviewed on the news last night, after saving Earth from an invasion by trolls. Fin Fang Foom is a thing. And you're going to say that dragons don't exist and expect me to take you seriously?

Or in the X-files, Agent Scully saying 'well the explanation CAN'T be supernatural dammit!', when she's spent the last year or so meeting mutants, telekinetic ghosts, sentient AIs, mind-controlling aliens, werewolves etc.

[Bohandas]

The closest thing I can think of in D&D is the heretical sect mentioned in the Dragon Magazine article on Hextor which held that Hextor and Heironeous were actually the same entity.

Closest thing I can think of in real world mysticism are the Keepers of the Sacred Chao, who hold this kind of belief not in regard to good and evil, but rather in regard to order and chaos, maintaining that order and chaos are so inextricably linked and entwined as to be essentially the same thing

Closest things I can think of in real world philosophy are moral relativism, cultural relativism, nihilism, and cosmicism.

[Bohandas]

In D&D, good and evil have objective weight

Yes, but that doesn't necessarily make them any more philosophically meaningful than electromagnetism or gravity

This is something of a scenario that crops up in comics and annoys me to no end.

You have a cop in the standard DC or Marvel universe who encounters, say, a dragon corpse. He then denies that it could be a dragon corpse, because there's no such things as dragons. Like, Thor was literally interviewed on the news last night, after saving Earth from an invasion by trolls. Fin Fang Foom is a thing. And you're going to say that dragons don't exist and expect me to take you seriously?

IIRC this character archetype is known as a "flat earth atheist". Also, you left out the judge and the mayor's aide from Ghostbusters II.

[SimonMoon6]

This is something of a scenario that crops up in comics and annoys me to no end.

You have a cop in the standard DC or Marvel universe who encounters, say, a dragon corpse. He then denies that it could be a dragon corpse, because there's no such things as dragons. Like, Thor was literally interviewed on the news last night, after saving Earth from an invasion by trolls. Fin Fang Foom is a thing. And you're going to say that dragons don't exist and expect me to take you seriously?

My favorite was when Batman, who has frequent encounters with Deadman (who is a ghost), later denied the existence of ghosts.

[2D8HP]

While Law vs. Chaos came from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts & Three Lions, Michael Moorcock (who's stories popularized this claptrap) introduced The Cosmic Balance into the mix.

[Bohandas]

I think the gods of the Cthulhu Mythos canonically existed in 1e D&D, (but they were later removed from for some reason. Not sure why; IIRC Lovecraft's stories were public domain by the time D&D came out and it can't have been because it was derivative to have them because they left in a lot of stuff that was highly derivative of other stuff).

Anyway the whole idea of the Cthulhu Mytbos is that good and evil are meaningless concepts. Though in D&D most of the deities did ping as evil.

[veti]

I think the gods of the Cthulhu Mythos canonically existed in 1e D&D, (but they were later removed from for some reason. Not sure why; IIRC Lovecraft's stories were public domain by the time D&D came out and it can't have been because it was derivative to have them because they left in a lot of stuff that was highly derivative of other stuff).

Anyway the whole idea of the Cthulhu Mytbos is that good and evil are meaningless concepts. Though in D&D most of the deities did ping as evil.

The copyright status of Lovecraft's works is messy to this day. In the late 70s, when this was originally an issue, it was even more so. I think the bottom line was that Chaosium had paid Lovecraft's estate for the rights to gamify his works, and that left TSR with a tangled mess of both copyright and trademark issues that they just didn't have the stomach or lawyers to work through.

I would say that Lovecraft was a pioneer in pointing out the subjectivity of what we call "good" and "evil". To us, those concepts are defined very firmly in human terms. To a being who barely notices that humans even exist, it follows that from their perspective, our ideas of G&E are about as interesting as an ant's sense of duty to its colony. That doesn't stop them being monstrously evil from our point of view - it just forces us to admit that there's not a lot we can do about them.

[Bohandas]

The copyright status of Lovecraft's works is messy to this day.

It can't be messy now. He died over 75 years ago, that means his work would be public domain by now even if the Mickey Mouse Protection Act had been in force back then.

[S@tanicoaldo]

One of the Gods of Nehwon from the Fritz Leiber books was described as a god of Neutrality and law in the D&D book about Lankhmar.

But I have read all the Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser stories and never saw that being refered in the original source.

I think that's the closest you can get.

[2D8HP]

It can't be messy now. He died over 75 years ago, that means his work would be public domain, by now even if the Mickey Mouse Protection Act had been in force back then.

Arkham House Books had the rights back then, and so they stopped TSR from having the Cthullu Mythos after the second printing of Deities & Demi-Gods (I hope I can find my copy of the 1st printing in my parents house someday!).

Cthullu is mentioned (under Warlocks) in the 5e PHB now, but for many years TSR was trying to get out of accusations of D&D leading to "demon worship", so although Chaosium (who had the game rights from Arkham), said "go ahead, just give us a one line mention", TSR said, "naw forget it".

Also, both Chaosium and TSR both got permission from (then living) Fritz Leiber, and (still living) Michael Moorcock to use their creations, but TSR dropped Moorcock's Melnibonean pantheon, and Chaosium gave up Leiber's Newhon pantheon.

Moorcock is no-longer the mellow hippie he was, and I personally heard him say (at a book signing) how angry he was about letting games be made from his characters.

[Herobizkit]

The 2e Complete Priest's Handbook had a True Neutral philosophy called the Divinity of Mankind.

"This is not a god, but a philosophy, and one so compelling that it generates magical energy
which priests of the philosophy can tap..."

Spoiler

Show

This philosophy states that mankind (specifically, the human race, including half-elves reared
among humans, but excluding dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings) is nearly a divine being, and
should do as much as he can to achieve perfection: physical, mental, and emotional perfection,
always and in all ways. The philosophy encourages men to strive for the physical ideal and to
learn as much as possible of the world.

So that's the idea that the priests promote. They cooperate in all sorts of educational, artistic,
and competitive enterprises, seek to counsel people in every aspect of living their lives, and
provide sanctuaries for people to meditate on the priesthood's teachings.

[Earthwalker]

DOOP: God of neutrality. Tell my wife I said.... Hello.

[The Eye]

The 2e Complete Priest's Handbook had a True Neutral philosophy called the Divinity of Mankind.

"This is not a god, but a philosophy, and one so compelling that it generates magical energy
which priests of the philosophy can tap..."

Spoiler

Show

This philosophy states that mankind (specifically, the human race, including half-elves reared
among humans, but excluding dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings) is nearly a divine being, and
should do as much as he can to achieve perfection: physical, mental, and emotional perfection,
always and in all ways. The philosophy encourages men to strive for the physical ideal and to
learn as much as possible of the world.

So that's the idea that the priests promote. They cooperate in all sorts of educational, artistic,
and competitive enterprises, seek to counsel people in every aspect of living their lives, and
provide sanctuaries for people to meditate on the priesthood's teachings.

Cool that's what I was looking for. Even better that is a philosophy and not a god. Thanks.

[tomandtish]

I think the gods of the Cthulhu Mythos canonically existed in 1e D&D, (but they were later removed from for some reason. Not sure why; IIRC Lovecraft's stories were public domain by the time D&D came out and it can't have been because it was derivative to have them because they left in a lot of stuff that was highly derivative of other stuff).

Anyway the whole idea of the Cthulhu Mytbos is that good and evil are meaningless concepts. Though in D&D most of the deities did ping as evil.

The copyright status of Lovecraft's works is messy to this day. In the late 70s, when this was originally an issue, it was even more so. I think the bottom line was that Chaosium had paid Lovecraft's estate for the rights to gamify his works, and that left TSR with a tangled mess of both copyright and trademark issues that they just didn't have the stomach or lawyers to work through.

There were a lot of copyright issues with the first printing of 1980's Dieties & Demigods.

Cthulhu Mythos: TSR thought it was in the public domain. Turns out Arkham House had the rights to it, and had licensed them to Chaosium/

Melnebonian Mythos: TSR got rights (they thought) from Moorcock to use it. Turns out he had already licensed it to Chaosium as well.

The second printing of the 1st edition (also in 1980) creditied Chaosium for the use of Melnebonian Mythos (Cthulhu was still being argued). By 1981 the Cthulu issue had been settled (TSR did not have rights) and they didn't want to pay Chaosium any money, so they ran a second edition of the book without those two mythos.

[Marlowe]

While Law vs. Chaos came from Poul Anderson's Three Hearts & Three Lions, Michael Moorcock (who's stories popularized this claptrap) introduced The Cosmic Balance into the mix.

The Andersen book is why Fey are Chaotic when, as nature spirits, it would make far more in-game sense if they were Neutral.

[GentlemanVoodoo]

Op: Two gods from D&D that come to mind are Auppenser, a neutral god of psionics and forth editions Raven Queen. Or you could just make up your own.

[Dorath]

Primus, The One and the Prime, lord of modrons and ruler of Nirvana. Known for enforcing strict law and order over the plane, and punishing any that would disrupt it, regardless of alignment.

[Segev]

Primus, The One and the Prime, lord of modrons and ruler of Nirvana. Known for enforcing strict law and order over the plane, and punishing any that would disrupt it, regardless of alignment.

He's LN, not TN. From the OP, I get the impression he's looking for TN.

[Wraith]

This is something of a scenario that crops up in comics and annoys me to no end.

You have a cop in the standard DC or Marvel universe who encounters, say, a dragon corpse. He then denies that it could be a dragon corpse, because there's no such things as dragons. Like, Thor was literally interviewed on the news last night, after saving Earth from an invasion by trolls. Fin Fang Foom is a thing. And you're going to say that dragons don't exist and expect me to take you seriously?

To be fair, this is not as self-defeating as it immediately sounds because the Marvel and DC universes are so rife with weird things.

There's Magic, and Shape-Shifters, and Psychics who can project images, and Hypnotists, and Hologramatic-Projection Technology..... Any one of those things can explain the appearance of what looks like a Dragon without actually being a Dragon. To see Thor fighting trolls is not automatically proof of the existence of Dragons.
One would have to be very narrow minded, short-sighted and impressively sceptical to NOT jump to that conclusion, of course - if there's something as incredible as magic, then why not Dragons also? - but logically speaking it's not an entirely unreasonable state of mind to disbelieve until specific and verified evidence is provided, if only to rule out the alternatives.

[Starshade]

I had the impression this isn't strictly only about game gods; I can find something from real life Asia, if you want histories about divine beings who don't believe good and evil really exist. Also maybe a few philosophers, some historical, a few maybe even alive.
In D&D; I assume the "no good and evil" makes such a deity more fit for Eberron, where the system allows a lot of ambiguity.