Warhammer 40K Tabletop XXX: Imperium After Dark

[Brookshw]

And i guess also Tyranids? though it seems like they are large winners in this change.

We did okay, not great but a decent net gain. Not sure yet how I feel about the Carnifex changes and I take back what I said earlier about Mawlocs.

Hopefully we get shrike models soon!

[Bobby Baratheon]

I'm a bit loath to complain too much, as my main army is a flavor of power armor (and thus won't be too badly affected), but I'm a bit annoyed they took away some of the rules that made Dark Angels distinctive from the vanilla Marines. Grim Resolve is gone. All of our ways to boost Overwatch are gone. Also, we still don't have Land Speeder Storms because reasons? Is there some pathological Dark Angel aversion to LSS so that we didn't get them in 7th and we don't get them now?

Of course, the complaint about lost army-wide rules/relics is true for every army in the game right now so I suppose we'll have to wait until the codices drop for actually distinctive rules, but it feels like it wouldn't have been that hard to keep in some of the things that made factions unique beyond units and wargear.

[lord_khaine]

We did okay, not great but a decent net gain. Not sure yet how I feel about the Carnifex changes and I take back what I said earlier about Mawlocs.

Hopefully we get shrike models soon!

Well.. i would say a gain where a lot of other armies seems to have lost is doing great?
I am pretty certain there are more Tyranid units viable now than there has been in the last decade.

[Brookshw]

Well.. i would say a gain where a lot of other armies seems to have lost is doing great?
I am pretty certain there are more Tyranid units viable now than there has been in the last decade.

That the haurspex may see play is mind blowing

[lord_khaine]

Yeah see.. and Tyranid warriors might actually do something after i dont know how long? :)

[Blackhawk748]

Yeah see.. and Tyranid warriors might actually do something after i dont know how long? :)

Nid Warriors saw use once people started spamming Autocannons and Scat Lasers, cuz neither one inflicted ID on them, so their second wound was actually good for something.

While at work, i thought about the Orks loss of 'eavy Armor and what that did to our durability, which then had me thinking of the new cover system, and i came to the relization that Orks just got screwed defensively.

Orks used to get a 4+ cover from ruins, just like everyone else. Now they only get a 5+ save (cuz they are wearing those stupid t-shirts) while the Guard are still getting their 4+ and Marines now get a freakin 2+. Orks now have to bum rush their opponents, because they dont have anywhere near the durability to hide in cover and shoot back with their Shootas (which are free at least).

Heres an example: We will have a squad of 10 Sisters Rapid Firing at a squad of Space Marines and Orks, both of which are in cover. So 20 shots that hit on a 3+, thats 13.33 shots hitting and 6.66 wounds inflicted. Now is were it gets nuts.

Orks have a 5+, which means they take 4.44 wounds (we'll call it 4) and the marines have a 2+ which means they take 1.33, so 1. Space Marines (in cover) are now 4 times more durable than Orks, and only cost twice as much. Orks may get a second attack and Mob rule, but they still shoot on 5+ and everything else is basically equal.

So ya, the new rules neuter Orks defensively.

Edit: Also i decided to put my money where m mouth is about the KFF. Its a tight squeeze, but you can fit a 30 boy Mob within 9 inches of the Mek, you're just wrapping the freaking Mob around him, theres only an inch or less between Orks and theres no way you are fitting a second Mob under it. So ya, it'll only work on one mob now, and its a tight fit.

[Brookshw]

Yeah see.. and Tyranid warriors might actually do something after i dont know how long? :)

Pffft......forget the warriors. Shrikes might actually do something!

But there are definitely areas I'm less happy about (e.g., smite w/ zoans, venomthrope def buff nerf, biovore damage output). It's good but a lot of others did pretty well. I think its going to be a while before the dust settles,.....and then we get to do it all over again w/ the codexes

[JNAProductions]

The "Rule of One (except Smite)" is dumb as hell. Glad I don't have that many GK.

Also, Blackhawk, remember you have to have your ENTIRE UNIT in cover to gain the bonus.

[Blackhawk748]

The "Rule of One (except Smite)" is dumb as hell. Glad I don't have that many GK.

Also, Blackhawk, remember you have to have your ENTIRE UNIT in cover to gain the bonus.

Well then the entire point is moot, as its nearly impossible to get that many Orks in cover. The more i read into this the more idiotic it sounds. Seriously, the entire unit? May as well say "Horde armies cant use cover" cuz thats basically what just happened.

I guess what im finding particularly stupid, is that they made so many other things granular (Armor saves and Vehicles degrading) but then they made things that where granular suddenly binary (Partial cover not being a thing and the new KFF)

Edit: I also agree on the "Rule of One" I havent seen a single power that wouldnt be fine spammed. Hell Smite is actually really good and is probably better than some of the Faction powers, so the rule really seems pointless.

[Saambell]

So wait, Orks have to try to rush into melee combat and not skulk in cover? As in, they play like the fluff says they act? And the game mechanics punish people from playing in a way that counters the fluff? Wish more armies did that... That would be the dream, the game mechanics for each army forcing the player to play their army like the fluff says they act.

[Blackhawk748]

So wait, Orks have to try to rush into melee combat and not skulk in cover? As in, they play like the fluff says they act? And the game mechanics punish people from playing in a way that counters the fluff? Wish more armies did that... That would be the dream, the game mechanics for each army forcing the player to play their army like the fluff says they act.

It sounds great, until you realize that Orks can't survive to get into melee. Painboyz are nerfed, the KFF only works for one unit (effectively) and Boyz no longer have access to a 4+ armor, so they fight in their T-shirts. Also i play Blood Axes, who, you know, use cover. Now using cover is arguably worse than just bum rushing the enemy.

As for playing to fluff, Marines dont engage in melee, like, ever, unless they are a unit specifically designed for it. So Marines (of virtually every flavor besides Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Wuffs) and every other army, will just hang back and blast Orks to oblivion before they can ever close the distance, cuz we can't cover hop and even if we could its never better than a 5+.

Orks arent survivable enough to do what they are supposed to do.

[lord_khaine]

Orks have a 5+, which means they take 4.44 wounds (we'll call it 4) and the marines have a 2+ which means they take 1.33, so 1. Space Marines (in cover) are now 4 times more durable than Orks, and only cost twice as much. Orks may get a second attack and Mob rule, but they still shoot on 5+ and everything else is basically equal.

That is straight up ignoring the morale phase though, where for once a large mob of orks suddenly have the advantage.

Pffft......forget the warriors. Shrikes might actually do something!

Been long enough i have forgotten what shriekes are. Is it the alternative name for that other basic troop unit Tyranids have? those jumping things?

But there are definitely areas I'm less happy about (e.g., smite w/ zoans, venomthrope def buff nerf, biovore damage output). It's good but a lot of others did pretty well. I think its going to be a while before the dust settles,.....and then we get to do it all over again w/ the codexes

Well as i recall from Cheese ranting on the subject, then a lot of times Zoans were not that good again due to all the rolls that was involved. Sounds like its a very minor loss, especially now you can tear down vehicles with enough small critters.
But yeah.. Gw is going to GW..

The "Rule of One (except Smite)" is dumb as hell. Glad I don't have that many GK.

It does sound kinda dumb, but i can see the reasoning behind it. GW wanted to be able to make psykers strong, without running the risk of pure psyker armies running rampant. This rule will at least initially prevent that, though we most likely will get exceptions to it down the road.

Can also see that with the new Eldar rules then the different 3+ units seems to be one of the bigger winners. from what i can tell after a brief glance then Dark Reapers, Striking Scorpions, Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons all continue to have some rather nasty weapons.

And with a guarantied Doom an Eldar army can really focus fire a target down.

[Blackhawk748]

That is straight up ignoring the morale phase though, where for once a large mob of orks suddenly have the advantage.

I purposefully didnt bring up the Morale phase, as i have no ida what And They Shall Know No Fear does now. Its entirely possible that Marines just ignore Battleshock, just as Orks basically do.

Been long enough i have forgotten what shriekes are. Is it the alternative name for that other basic troop unit Tyranids have? those jumping things?

You are thinking of Gargoyles, which are winged Gaunts. Shrikes are winged Tyranid Warriors.

[Saambell]

Know No Fear is ReRoll Morale. I did see that when I checked out a store's copy with Wolves.


EDIT: Unless different Marines treat the rule differently....

[Blackhawk748]

Know No Fear is ReRoll Morale. I did see that when I checked out a store's copy with Wolves.


EDIT: Unless different Marines treat the rule differently....

Im not sure, in any event they only took 1 casualty, and if i understand Battleshock correctly, they wont take any casualties from that anyway.

I just dont understand why GW took away our Armor. Its been an upgrade since...forever and to have the option suddenly yanked and our other defensive measures hamstrung leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[Tvtyrant]

It sounds great, until you realize that Orks can't survive to get into melee. Painboyz are nerfed, the KFF only works for one unit (effectively) and Boyz no longer have access to a 4+ armor, so they fight in their T-shirts. Also i play Blood Axes, who, you know, use cover. Now using cover is arguably worse than just bum rushing the enemy.

As for playing to fluff, Marines dont engage in melee, like, ever, unless they are a unit specifically designed for it. So Marines (of virtually every flavor besides Blood Angels, Black Templars, and Wuffs) and every other army, will just hang back and blast Orks to oblivion before they can ever close the distance, cuz we can't cover hop and even if we could its never better than a 5+.

Orks arent survivable enough to do what they are supposed to do.

Orks are supposed to T1 out of a Weirdboy hitting his Da Jump power now if they play horde. Ig not they are supposed to play madmax with buggies, trukks, morkanauts and battlewagons. Option 3 is robo-horde with Kans, Kannons and Nauts.

There are several styles or Orks that do work, just not foothordes walking alowly towards the enemy.

[Renegade Paladin]

Chimeras no longer have fire points. It's time to seriously rethink my entire list building strategy.

[Bobby Baratheon]

None of the transports I've seen have firing points. It would appear that either they will reinstall that later (unlikely), or that's now the sole province of open topped transports.

[Cheesegear]

but it feels like it wouldn't have been that hard to keep in some of the things that made factions unique beyond units and wargear.

It depends on whether or not they were serious when they said they were working on it a long time.
Updating every unit at once, is a monumental task, and credit where credit is due; The madmen actually did it.

While there are many things I disagree with - as do we all - there are certainly many other things that they did right. Fortunately, my collection is so XBOX HUEG that I have the luxury of being able to swap my models out for ones that are actually good. So I have the privilege of reserving judgement until I can hard slog my way through all Factions to compare them to each other - or someone else on the internet does it for me.

...I hope people have been reading the Missions, and what it takes to actually win, and then comparing units to the objective of the game?
Who am I kidding...Of course they haven't.

[Tehnar]

Like when AoS came out, they updated all the armies at once. While I agree the rules needed some cleaning up, the results are pretty bland. Any interesting effects now do 1/d3/d6 etra mortal wounds instead of what they did before. I miss the moral rules, even if they were not used a lot.

What I can't really figure out is the rules for determining a model point cost.

Take for example the Dire Avengers: at 10 ppm for a model, with a avenger shuriken cannon at 7 ppw and can replace one model with the dire avenger exarch which I can't find the points for. Do models pay for weapons they come with, or only for upgrades?

So what would a squad of 5 cost with a exarch? They seem very expensive then at 17 ppm, very reasonable at 10 ppm but then if the weapons a unit comes are free then wraithguard with wraithcannons would be stupid cheap at 23 ppm.

[DaedalusMkV]

Like when AoS came out, they updated all the armies at once. While I agree the rules needed some cleaning up, the results are pretty bland. Any interesting effects now do 1/d3/d6 etra mortal wounds instead of what they did before. I miss the moral rules, even if they were not used a lot.

What I can't really figure out is the rules for determining a model point cost.

Take for example the Dire Avengers: at 10 ppm for a model, with a avenger shuriken cannon at 7 ppw and can replace one model with the dire avenger exarch which I can't find the points for. Do models pay for weapons they come with, or only for upgrades?

So what would a squad of 5 cost with a exarch?

Yes, you pay for every weapon you come with. No, you do not have to pay extra for squad leaders (beyond any extra equipment they may have that happens to be mandatory and costs points).

5 Dire Avengers with Shuriken Catapults and no other equipment, assuming the points costs you've listed (I haven't read the Eldar stuff yet), would cost 85 points.

This can get very complicated when it comes to things with a lot of mandatory buys. Stormsurges have a deceptively low base price, because their mandatory weapon buys cost around 200 points (in ten-ish individual chunks, for extra number-crunching). It's... Not easy at all to tell how many points a lot of things cost at a glance. You can easily see, say, Hive Guard costing absurdly low numbers of points, think "Oh, wow, that's cheap", then notice that you have the choice of two extremely expensive guns to give them, bumping the price up heavily. Or look at Obliterators, say "Huh, 65 points base. Pricey." then check their weapons and find they cost 0 points (because nobody but Obliterators can have them and Obliterators don't have a choice), meaning that actually they're pretty cheap when you're finished. Even if they are bland and unreliable *mumble grumble*.

I'm... Not a fan of the system. It's weird and finicky. But it is what it is, and with some sort of an Army Builder app doing the fiddly bits for you it shouldn't be too bad to get a list together.

[LeSwordfish]

GW gave their old models in AOS horrible joke rules so people wouldn't want to use them publically. I'm probably insane but... have they made the points system difficult to use for similar reasons?

[Blackhawk748]

Orks are supposed to T1 out of a Weirdboy hitting his Da Jump power now if they play horde. Ig not they are supposed to play madmax with buggies, trukks, morkanauts and battlewagons. Option 3 is robo-horde with Kans, Kannons and Nauts.

There are several styles or Orks that do work, just not foothordes walking alowly towards the enemy.

Each Mob would needs its own pocket weirdboy for that to work, Trukks now cost over twice what they did before, and we can now field less walkers than ever before because of the price increases.

So Green Tide, the core Ork strategy in both fluff and tabletop for decades, no longer works. Just brilliant GW.

Chimeras no longer have fire points. It's time to seriously rethink my entire list building strategy.

That....doesnt make any sense. Why would they do that? Hell Chimeras even have that Las Array thing.

GW gave their old models in AOS horrible joke rules so people wouldn't want to use them publically. I'm probably insane but... have they made the points system difficult to use for similar reasons?

It kinda feels that way doesnt it?

[Rizhail]

GW gave their old models in AOS horrible joke rules so people wouldn't want to use them publically. I'm probably insane but... have they made the points system difficult to use for similar reasons?

They made it this way to make it easier to update. If they need to change point costs to balance things, whether they are units or wargear, they only have to release updated points pages rather than all of the unit datasheets; they can also tweak an individual item's cost at once and thus the cost of every model using it without releasing multiple errata pages. It's confusing at first, but you can easily copy/print out that one to three pages and keep them next to you when army building to make things easier.

[Cheesegear]

have they made the points system difficult to use for similar reasons?

I have never not used Excel to build my army lists.
I will continue to use Excel to build my army lists.

What it does do, is make PUGs more difficult to play. At which point you're supposed to go full *urk* Casual Mode, and play Open () or Narrative (double-).

[Gauntlet]

So, thrown a list together to try out the new edition costings. I'm able to get most of what I'm interested in into a 2000 point list, but I'm going for the cheaper 'elite' options rather than trying to jam in super-heavies.

This is what I'm looking at at the moment:

Spoiler: Tau 2000

Show

Battalion Detachment - 824 points - 3 Command Points

Commander - 139
3 Cyclic Ion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Commander - 139
3 Cyclic Ion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Commander - 139
3 Cyclic Ion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Fire Warriors (12) - 96
Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades

Fire Warriors (12) - 96
Pulse Rifles, Photon Grenades

Breachers (10) - 88
Pulse Blasters, Photon Grenades, Guardian Drone

Devilfish - 127
Burst Cannon, 2 Gun Drones

Outrider Detachment - 234 points - 1 Command Point

Cadre Fireblade - 42
Pulse Rifle, Markerlight, Photon Grenades

Gun Drones (8) - 64
Pulse Carbines

Gun Drones (8) - 64
Pulse Carbines

Gun Drones (8) - 64
Pulse Carbines

Outrider Detachment - 217 points - 1 Command Point

Darkstrider - 45
Pulse Carbine, Markerlight, Photon Grenades

Pathfinders (6) - 76
Pulse Carbines, Markerlights
Recon Drone, Pulse Accelerator Drone, Grav-Inhibitor Drone

Pathfinders (6) - 48
Pulse Carbines, Markerlights

Pathfinders (6) - 48
Pulse Carbines, Markerlights

Vanguard Detachment - 725 points - 1 Command Point

Shadowsun - 173
2 Fusion Blasters
Command Link Drone

Ghostkeel - 174
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Burst Cannons
Drone Controller, Advanced Targeting System

Ghostkeel - 189
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Fusion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Ghostkeel - 189
Cyclic Ion Raker, 2 Fusion Blasters
Advanced Targeting System

Total: 2000

+6 Command Points for 9 total. Plenty of strength 5 shooting. Shadowsun and the Ghostkeels hunt down any heavy / high wound models, and the Commanders fill either role depending on what's needed, or hunt heavier infantry like bikers and terminators. Breachers are another threat, and also reasonably good against anything, and reasonably likely to get there with the durability of the Devilfish now.

I'm tempted to reduce the Fire Warrior squad sizes for more Gun Drones - since Drones are way better at shooting and more mobile / durable - but I'm not sure if the FWs' better Morale means it's worth keeping them as big squads. If I had a few more points, I'd swap the Fire Warriors for more Breachers in Devilfish, and increase the size of the Drone squads.

[Voidhawk]

That....doesnt make any sense. Why would they do that? Hell Chimeras even have that Las Array thing.

Fire points are gone from all vehicles. The Chimera now has two Las Arrays of Rapid Fire 3, that can only fire if there are passengers.

Most transports that were Open Topped before are still as such, and the passengers may fire out provided the vehicle can. So not if it fell-back, and only with Pistols if it's in combat. But only most open topped vehicles made the transition. Necrons can no longer fire out of a Ghost Ark for example. Check your individual rules.

The purpose of this is (in theory) to force Infantry to get out of transports if they want to do stuff. But with the inability to do so after the transport moved, that's going to be much trickier to do successfully. Expect infantry that want to get close to you to teleport/jump-pack/drop-pod at you instead.

As a note, one vehicle retained the ability to drop off troops during a move: the Valkyrie. They have to drop the regulation 9" away from enemies (and if it moved more than 20" a sixth of them die instantly), but other than that it's a normal disembark they can then move/charge/etc as normal.

What it does do, is make PUGs more difficult to play. At which point you're supposed to go full *urk* Casual Mode, and play Open () or Narrative (double-).

I'm actually reasonably sold on using Power Level for casual games. GW points costs have always been a guessing game anyway, so a little variation in exchange for not worrying if you bought melta-bombs on four sergeants or five seems fine.

Speaking of which, I just noticed that both meltabombs and haywire grenades have vanished entirely into the warp. Another small annoyance.

[Cheesegear]

I'm actually reasonably sold on using Power Level for casual games.

But the nuance! The pointless hemming and hawing for 20 minutes before you actually play!

Speaking of which, I just noticed that both meltabombs and haywire grenades have vanished entirely into the warp. Another small annoyance.

I guess that because anything and everything can deal damage to everything now, they're less relevant.

[Brookshw]

Each Mob would needs its own pocket weirdboy for that to work,

Not to mention that it can only be used once a turn.

I'd like to see orks get their own drop pods, but not drop pods exactly, rather than release a model GW should tell you to go get a rock from your garden or somewhere and use that instead, cause, ya know, orks. Painting it red is optional.

[Bobby Baratheon]

Speaking of which, I just noticed that both meltabombs and haywire grenades have vanished entirely into the warp. Another small annoyance.

Space Marines still have access to meltabombs - but only on assault sergeants IIRC.

EDIT: Chunks of falling Space Hulks would be an excellent reason for Ork "Drop Pods", though they should be dirt cheap, do absolutely nothing other than hit the ground, and have a chance of killing their passengers horribly. Also, it seems like the 9" rule is the official deep strike thing now, but Ork Rock Pods would almost need to scatter, and to act as a large blast (ie d6 hits) on whatever they land on. Would be a lot of fun.