OOTS #1073 - The Discussion Thread

[Shining Wrath]

If the Mechane crashes due to loss of lift, it will cause delay, possibly considerable.
If the mechanism or spell which conjures helium from the elemental plane of air has a finite rate of helium creation, every mole of helium that escapes from the bag represents a delay of unknown duration.
If the Furkini Menace does further damage, it may also cause delay.

Delay, theoretically, leads to the end of the world. Remember that for the Mechane's "nick of time" feature to function the crew has to at least be trying to arrive in time.

The continued existence of the world depends on Elan choosing wisely.

Alas. Alas, poor Stickverse. Alas.

[AutomatedTeller]

A) Rich with the meta humor in the title!!!
B) "aw, I just fixed that figher!" is a gem.
C) I agree that fixing the rip in the balloon is important. it might not get them out, but it keeps them from having to fight more giants on the ground. I don't know how they get more lift, but they can work that out - maybe V has a spell that can help. or, at least, they can determine where they make landfall and when, as opposed to having it determined for them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

No, it hasn't. We know that the helium was conjured, but we have no indication that the crew is able to do so at will or what method was used to do so.

"They" in the sentence indicates Andi - and since it is a plural, someone else in the crew, rather than Andi herself. And the method is spelled out: summoning.

Wasteful implies the unnecessary use of resources being consumed such that they cant be used for something else. it would be wasteful to use a 2nd level spell slot when a 1st level slot was available.

Or, say, a non-magical spare canvas and glue. Which they have.

But that requires Elan to be successful enough in combat to handle the giantess.

No, just enough to get on the other side and give Roy and flanking buddy. He will still not be at full potential due to borrowed weapon, but better than not having +2 at all.

ETA: Also, he isn't that terrible when his enemy understands puns. He could easily shorten the battle a turn or two, even if Roy is the primary damage dealer.

Actually, the best plan would be for Elan to use mending on the balloon where she can see him. A unique way of drawing aggro, but it would put her focus on dealing with Elan as a prelude to wrecking stuff (because why wreck when it'll get fixed next round).

So far, she is not aware that Elan can fix stuff. Demonstrating that he can will only entice her to break more than one thing per turn - say, go back to two ropes rather than one gash in the envelope.

GW

[Keltest]

Or, say, a non-magical spare canvas and glue. Which they have.

Ok, so they spend 10 minutes getting it out and applying it. Oops, they dropped too far because of the delay. If only there had been some sort of spell that could have been used to fix it sooner.

The intended goal here isn't just to fix the hole, its to reduce or eliminate the risk of drifting too far down into the canyon to pass over the ridge again. Using canvas and glue has a substantially worse performance in that regard.

Also, "They" refers to the entire collective crew of the Mechane, and does nothing to indicate what method they actually use to do said summoning. It could be an artifact, it could be a wizard, or it could be the equivalent of a gas pump at those nifty airship docking stations weve seen in a few cities.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ok, so they spend 10 minutes getting it out and applying it. Oops, they dropped too far because of the delay. If only there had been some sort of spell that could have been used to fix it sooner.

The intended goal here isn't just to fix the hole, its to reduce or eliminate the risk of drifting too far down into the canyon to pass over the ridge again. Using canvas and glue has a substantially worse performance in that regard.

Again: they have already drifted too far down into the canyon to pass over the ridge. They are going to have to either wait for Andi to do her thing (assuming you put any faith in her ability), or get the guy to summon more helium, or both. Fixing the envelope is not in the critical path.

GW

[Keltest]

Again: they have already drifted too far down into the canyon to pass over the ridge. They are going to have to either wait for Andi to do her thing (assuming you put any faith in her ability), or get the guy to summon more helium, or both. Fixing the envelope is not in the critical path.

GW

Yes, right, and the success or failure of Andi's "thing" is in part dependent on minimizing the amount of lift it actually has to provide. Ergo, stopping the descent, ergo patching the hole.

[Jasdoif]

Yes, right, and the success or failure of Andi's "thing" is in part dependent on minimizing the amount of lift it actually has to provide. Ergo, stopping the descent, ergo patching the hole.

I'm going to say that preventing the frost giantess from creating additional holes is going to be a more effective priority for stopping the descent, as her ability to make more holes makes the loss in lift gas over time exponential rather than linear.

Mundane patching efforts by the crew are of course going to take longer than mending; but on the other hand the crew's going to be far more effective working on the balloon than they would be working on the frost giantess. And once the threat of new holes is removed, then Elan can get to work on sealing the hole(s).

[chy03001]

Heh...

Elan is feeling the frustration of being a healer in any RPG :-D

[ChillerInstinct]

I want her to die a good death. I don't think her changing sides is in character, and there's no way to get rid of her.

I disagree, actually. Frostie seems to have deep-rooted grudges about the Frost Giant way, plus she really does seem oblivious that she's been lied to about her longterm survival. If she's non-fatally incapacitated and told the truth, she might persuaded that she's on the wrong side.

Alternatively, she might get knocked off the side of the ship with no way to get back on (and without stuff to reliably throw at it), have to trudge back to give a report to the other giants ("the humans are stuck here. Give me a couple more clerics and we can finish them off"), which would also help give us a chance to see things from the giants' perspective and possibly plant some doubt in her mind.

It's likely she'll be killed here but I think there's still chances for her to survive.

[Keltest]

I'm going to say that preventing the frost giantess from creating additional holes is going to be a more effective priority for stopping the descent, as her ability to make more holes makes the loss in lift gas over time exponential rather than linear.

Mundane patching efforts by the crew are of course going to take longer than mending; but on the other hand the crew's going to be far more effective working on the balloon than they would be working on the frost giantess. And once the threat of new holes is removed, then Elan can get to work on sealing the hole(s).

At this point, the crew is appearing little better than window dressing. With the exception of Bandana, none of them appear to be much more competent at their jobs than Andi is at captaining. I am, quite frankly, unwilling to count on any of them to do anything well except what they are explicitly said/shown to be able to do.

Anyway, if Roy is successfully distracting the giantess, then it will take Elan all of a round to cast mending before he can go help Roy deal with her. Its the exact same priority the first time there was a hole, except the specific height they are at has taken on a greater importance.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I disagree, actually. Frostie seems to have deep-rooted grudges about the Frost Giant way, plus she really does seem oblivious that she's been lied to about her longterm survival. If she's non-fatally incapacitated and told the truth, she might persuaded that she's on the wrong side.

I was sort of hoping for the same, but with today's declaration of love for Thrym, I don't think that is in the cards anymore. She disagrees with the elders about her position in the tribe, but not on their service to their god.

GW

[Jasdoif]

At this point, the crew is appearing little better than window dressing. With the exception of Bandana, none of them appear to be much more competent at their jobs than Andi is at captaining. I am, quite frankly, unwilling to count on any of them to do anything well except what they are explicitly said/shown to be able to do.

But that's the beauty of it in this scenario: if they're unable to meaningfully assist with the balloon or the frost giant, there isn't anything lost by them attempting to assist with the balloon.

Anyway, if Roy is successfully distracting the giantess, then it will take Elan all of a round to cast mending before he can go help Roy deal with her.

And giving the giantess another round to act, yes. Elan spending a spell to repair a hole giving her time to create a new hole would result in Elan being down a spell slot with nothing to show for it.

[Peelee]

I disagree, actually. Frostie seems to have deep-rooted grudges about the Frost Giant way, plus she really does seem oblivious that she's been lied to about her longterm survival. If she's non-fatally incapacitated and told the truth, she might persuaded that she's on the wrong side.

Dying far sooner than expected puts her in her desired afterlife. Defying her god and living longer puts her in a rather less desired afterlife. Given that she is directly serving her God here.... I wouldn't put any gold on conversion.

[Keltest]

But that's the beauty of it in this scenario: if they're unable to meaningfully assist with the balloon or the frost giant, there isn't anything lost by them attempting to assist with the balloon.

But there isn't anything gained either. Sure, some of them can run below decks and grab the canvas and glue, but meanwhile the problem is still ongoing and needs to be dealt with as soon as possible. The crew is allowed to be window dressing wherever they see fit, I suppose.

And giving the giantess another round to act, yes. Elan spending a spell to repair a hole giving her time to create a new hole would result in Elan being down a spell slot with nothing to show for it.

One, I specifically said that this relies on Roy doing his part in distracting the giantess, something he has, until now, been largely successful at. Two, Elan's ability to distract the giantess has so far been fairly minimal. Crowd Control has historically not been one of his strengths.

[knag]

Well, at least they've brought the ship back to where Roy lost his sword! I was worried there was going to need to be a whole side quest to retrieve it.

Because goddamnit, I hate side quests.

[Flying Turtle]

I disagree, actually. Frostie seems to have deep-rooted grudges about the Frost Giant way, plus she really does seem oblivious that she's been lied to about her longterm survival. If she's non-fatally incapacitated and told the truth, she might persuaded that she's on the wrong side.

I'm not so certain that is likely to happen. Back in the Godsmoot we saw multiple examples of people knowingly going along with the destructive of the world just because their gods wanted it. It's very possible that she does know the truth and is just okay with it. Alternatively, if she doesn't know the truth that means either she was lied to by her god or she was willing to accept an explanation free order from her god to kill complete strangers. In the former I can't imagine her being willing to take Roy's word over her god's and in the latter her loyalty and obedience to her god are clearly significant and I can't imagine her turning on him that easily.

Also I would argue her morality is questionable in all three of these scenarios. All three point to a person unsettleingly quick to resort to murder. Sorry, but no matter how I look at this scenario she seems like a villain to me.

[JumboWheat01]

Well, at least they've brought the ship back to where Roy lost his sword! I was worried there was going to need to be a whole side quest to retrieve it.

Because goddamnit, I hate side quests.

And if they go low enough in altitude, recovering it and getting back on the ship (assuming the ship is still usable) will be a breeze!

[Wryte]

Frosty is still the most competent and likable new character here. I'm going to be sad when she dies.

Frosty for new Order member!

Wait, but then Bandana couldn't join.

They could both join.

I ship it. (joking)

...dangit now I actually ship it.

This has been a brief glimpse into the workings of my brain.

[Jasdoif]

One, I specifically said that this relies on Roy doing his part in distracting the giantess, something he has, until now, been largely successful at. Two, Elan's ability to distract the giantess has so far been fairly minimal. Crowd Control has historically not been one of his strengths.

Ah....Well, I guess that's fair. If you assume the frost giantess is reliably distracted by Roy without fail despite the recent failure, and will not be influenced in any way by seeing Elan repair the hole she made, and that she certainly doesn't react in such a fashion that she focuses on Roy in a way that allows her to make an attack of opportunity on Elan if he tries to cast a spell; Elan's time is probably better served casting mending. (The scenario where she goes back to cutting ropes which Elan hasn't mended over tearing the balloon which Elan has mended is kind of a wash; the extra transit time it takes her to get to all the ropes might make all the difference on one hand, while if the Mechane is separated from its balloon gravity takes a pot shot on the other)

I'd think helping Roy ensure the threat is over would be a better course of action than assuming the threat is over, myself.

[Shining Wrath]

The most likely scenario is that the more helium that is lost, the more time and effort will be required to replace that helium.

The most likely scenario is that whatever method enables the Mechane to leave this valley (replenished helium, Andi working some sort of Mechane Mechanic Magic, portage, throwing things overboard) will be facilitated by having more helium.

The most likely scenario is that the Order will use the Mechane to complete their mission.

Having made a string of plausible assumptions, and noting that Roy asked Elan to fix the hole in the balloon, I think that Elan fixing the hole in the balloon is probably a good idea.

[Keltest]

Ah....Well, I guess that's fair. If you assume the frost giantess is reliably distracted by Roy without fail despite the recent failure, and will not be influenced in any way by seeing Elan repair the hole she made, and that she certainly doesn't react in such a fashion that she focuses on Roy in a way that allows her to make an attack of opportunity on Elan if he tries to cast a spell; Elan's time is probably better served casting mending. (The scenario where she goes back to cutting ropes which Elan hasn't mended over tearing the balloon which Elan has mended is kind of a wash; the extra transit time it takes her to get to all the ropes might make all the difference on one hand, while if the Mechane is separated from its balloon gravity takes a pot shot on the other)

I'd think helping Roy ensure the threat is over would be a better course of action than assuming the threat is over, myself.

Perhaps if you could explain how Elan could meaningfully prevent her from hitting things in a way that Roy could not do so alone, I would find your argument stronger. As it is, youre suggesting Elan do something nonspecific but effective to obtain the giant's attention instead of letting Roy do something nonspecific but effective.

[Doug Lampert]

Perhaps if you could explain how Elan could meaningfully prevent her from hitting things in a way that Roy could not do so alone, I would find your argument stronger. As it is, youre suggesting Elan do something nonspecific but effective to obtain the giant's attention instead of letting Roy do something nonspecific but effective.

Funny, there's this webcomic I've been reading where a Bard JUST CAST a spell confusion spell that cost a frost giantess a turn or two. Apparently other people are reading a different comic and I'm in the wrong discussion thread.

Elan has a KNOWN, specific way to distract her, which has been shown to work. We just saw Roy's way. I'd say Elan is the one you want taking on the Furkini Menace since failing to take her on AT BEST results in the ship crashing shortly after Elan runs out of slots.

[Jasdoif]

Perhaps if you could explain how Elan could meaningfully prevent her from hitting things in a way that Roy could not do so alone, I would find your argument stronger.

Fair enough. Off the top of my head....Lesser confusion again, cast while on the opposite of Roy, while Roy is threatening the frost giantess. It uses confusion's effect table:

• (10%) Attack caster with melee or ranged weapons (or close with caster if attack is not possible).: Not damaging the Mechane, and her movement provokes an attack of opportunity from Roy.
• (10%) Act normally: Roughly equal to whatever you're expecting Roy to accomplish without Elan's assistance.
• (30%) Do nothing but babble incoherently: Not damaging the Mechane, Roy is free to full attack.
• (20%) Flee away from caster at top possible speed: Not damaging the Mechane, and her movement provokes an attack of opportunity from Roy.
• (30%) Attack nearest creature: Not damaging the Mechane.

So 90% chance she's prevented from attacking the Mechane, 10% chance Roy's exactly as effective as he would be in your scenario....Without making any guesses on her normal action, there's a 10-20% chance she attacks Elan, a 30-40% chance she attacks Roy, and a 60-70% chance Roy gets to attack her without her attacking him.

[Aotrs Commander]

Now, this strip was interesting.

Because I have read about generals who did exactly what Andi appears to be doing. Upon finding they couldn't cope with the stress of leadership, they just went and lost themselves in the familiar (e.g. the deployment of one particular cannon battery) to the exclusion of all else. (Effectively leaving their army leaderless.)

[Draconi Redfir]

Now, this strip was interesting.

Because I have read about generals who did exactly what Andi appears to be doing. Upon finding they couldn't cope with the stress of leadership, they just went and lost themselves in the familiar (e.g. the deployment of one particular cannon battery) to the exclusion of all else. (Effectively leaving their army leaderless.)

evidently backseat-driving and not doing your job is easier then trying to do two completely unrelated jobs :P

[HUMVEE Driver]

Wow, for someone who is supposedly so smart, Roy sure is dumb.

[dtilque]

Andi is going to explode the ship that is definitely going to happen.

Maybe not the whole ship, but certainly one of the engines. The ship is trailing a small smoke cloud, indicating probably a smouldering fire in the engine compartment. Andi increasing the fuel flow is very likely to cause a BOOM!

Not a complete negative, though. It'll give V, H, and B a direction to go. You know, just look for the big explosion

[Peelee]

Wow, for someone who is supposedly so smart, Roy sure is dumb.

I, too, disdain those who don't have all monster statblocks memorized.

[Wanderer]

Hey, at least Andy is back to working on mechanical tasks. Now we need to either find a way to ensure she stays there, or at least doesn't attempt to ever perform any other sort of tasks again, and we'll all be much better off*.

*I was going to say "we'll be all set" but with a rampaging frost giant still aboard that seems pretty clearly untrue.

[TheNecrocomicon]

First off, I have to say I am highly impressed with Mr. Burlew's updates since the Kickstarter story release. Well done and I hope the progress keeps on coming (for a reasonable amount of time, of course, no way this lasts forever).

I want her to die a good death. I don't think her changing sides is in character, and there's no way to get rid of her.

This. She's so fanatically devoted to her god that switching sides, especially this suddenly, is an extreme unlikelihood. And it's totally fine to see an antagonistic character with some honour and valour; they can't all end up on the protagonists' side.

Wonder how long it will be before Andi blows herself up?

Getting blown up by one's own shoddy repair work? Now that sounds like some poetic justice. Pity it will probably take the Mechane and most/all of its crew down with her.

At this point, given the trend of the battle scene over the past most-of-a-year, I fully expect things to keep degenerating until the Order are straggling through the mountains for days or weeks on foot. I don't want that to happen, but only a thinly-veiled deus ex machina seems to be capable of getting everyone out of the mountains alive anymore.