Relationship Woes and Advice XXVIII: Happy and Perfect!

[dehro]

if your work situation allows for coffee breaks, or something similar, and she takes them, try to have them together. See if you can make this a habit and she responds to it. Ideally she'll start waiting for you/seeking you out for such breaks, which usually indicates she finds your company interesting enough. strike up meaningful conversations with her during those times, by which I mean conversations in which you get to learn more about her.
If the things you learn about her leave you still attracted to her and it seems to you that what you share about yourself doesn't scare her away, invite her to something social based on expressed common interests. Wait for when you know each other better to express your interest. It will have more meaning and be less superficial.
or, you kknow, just invite her for coffee... preferably before your shift starts. that way you will defeat the possibility that she wants to rush home and to bed after work and you can actually get a conversation started that might keep you engaged during coffee breaks or further interactions

[VoxRationis]

Go for it, you have more to gain than to lose - it is worth it even if there's only a small chance that she's into you. Lots of people meet through work, so there's nothing wrong with taking the risk. The chances of being reported to HR would be slim so long as aren't too persistent or forceful.

You could mitigate the risk of awkwardness or her being spooked by making your invitation causal "hey that movie we were looking forward to opens next week, want to see it?", then suggesting eating beforehand and drinks afterward, rather than "I find you comely and ebullient so would give me the pleasure of your company....".

Sadly, the movie we were both looking forward to has already come out. That's a good suggestion, though. Is there a culturally accepted standard (in the northern US) for asking people on dates? I'm unfamiliar with the etiquette involved.

if your work situation allows for coffee breaks, or something similar, and she takes them, try to have them together. See if you can make this a habit and she responds to it. Ideally she'll start waiting for you/seeking you out for such breaks, which usually indicates she finds your company interesting enough. strike up meaningful conversations with her during those times, by which I mean conversations in which you get to learn more about her.
If the things you learn about her leave you still attracted to her and it seems to you that what you share about yourself doesn't scare her away, invite her to something social based on expressed common interests. Wait for when you know each other better to express your interest. It will have more meaning and be less superficial.
or, you kknow, just invite her for coffee... preferably before your shift starts. that way you will defeat the possibility that she wants to rush home and to bed after work and you can actually get a conversation started that might keep you engaged during coffee breaks or further interactions

I am concerned that it might seem creepy if I suddenly adjust my schedule to coincide with her breaks, particularly as I would have to pay an inordinate amount of attention to when she takes them.

[Form]

(Disclaimer: In the event that you know who I am personally, please refrain from reading this post.)

I am in the position of being attracted to one of my co-workers. My job is sort of production-focused, so I don't know her particularly well (we only really talk when we're waiting for our day shift deskmates to leave), but I've enjoyed talking with her and find her to be comely, so I am interested in seeing where that goes. She seems to usually enjoy my company, as she smiles and is friendly when we talk, but she seems to be similarly ebullient in the company of others, so I can't safely interpret that as a sign of attraction. In general, I do not trust my reading of her thoughts and opinions about me. Humans are about as good at hiding true feelings as they are at reading them, and it's too easy for confirmation bias to cloud my perception in this regard.
The fact that we are co-workers, rather than casual acquaintances through some non-professional social circle, is also a complicating factor. Fortunately, neither one of us is in any position of superiority over the other, and such is unlikely in the near future. We work in the same large room, but in different departments (we don't really have to interact in our professional capacities). In the second-to-worst-case scenario that she becomes uncomfortable around me because of expressed attraction, I could give her plenty of distance with comparatively slight adjustments to my workday. (The worst-case scenario is, of course, that she interprets even a single polite overture as sexual harassment and reports me to HR, though I consider this unlikely.)
My attraction to this co-worker is comparatively casual. I would be disappointed, but not crushed, were she to reject an advance, and I would be happy were we to continue as friends. My greatest concern is that she might become spooked and break off contact. What do people think I should do in this situation? My ex-girlfriend believes I should attempt to engineer extended social contact in groups, to build a more extended bond before attempting to make romantic overtures. I am concerned that this could prove logistically difficult due to my work occurring in the evening shift. My co-workers have a tendency to want to rush home and sleep after work, and most neutral locations besides Cub Foods have a tendency to be closed at that time.

I advise against trying to pursue a romantic affair with this woman, though admittedly I'm the type that prefers to keep business and personal strictly separate. There are plenty of women out there who are not a co-worker of yours and you stand to lose more than to gain. You stand to gain romance (maybe), but you stand to lose your job. Your job provides you with a means of survival and is required to pay rent, water, food etc. Romance does not provide any of those things.

[Aedilred]

Losing your job over it, per se, is very unlikely unless your workplace has very strict and blanket no-dating rules. Which are, honestly, ridiculous.

Yes, it could cause a HR nightmare if she decides she's going to make a real thing out of it but that also seems very unlikely. Job security is not a factor I would be worried about; you will know better than us if this is likely to be something to cause serious concern.

While I do understand and have in the past agreed with the policy of keeping work and social life separate, I am increasingly coming to appreciate that this is a luxury, predominantly available to the young, and may actually be counterproductive. While becoming best mates with people you have to manage is fraught with difficulty and may be best avoided, the fact is you spend the majority of your waking hours around your colleagues and if you get on well with them, putting up barriers in order to stop yourself becoming friends with them on a point of arbitrary principle doesn't make a lot of sense. Depending on the job's hours and your extracurricular commitments it can be very difficult to maintain much of a social life outside work - and that's assuming you even have one to maintain. And if you're working with friends or your partner then it means you get to spend more time with them.

If you're in a town where you have lots of friends from school or university still around, then it's relatively easy to keep friends as a strictly out-of-work thing, because out-of-work friends are not in short supply. If not, work is actually by far your best opportunity to meet new people. And when it comes to romantic partners in particular I'm generally of the view that if you meet someone you like personally and find attractive, it'd be foolish to pass that opportunity up in favour of any number of internet dates with people you know less well.

However it is still something to be approached with caution, because it's harder to make a graceful exit if she turns you down (or if things fall apart after initial success) and because even in a best-case scenario your workplace will never be quite the same again (which, admittedly, might be a good thing). This makes the gauging of her opinion of you more important than it might otherwise be, but unfortunately there's no easy way around that. There are a few obvious things that it might be worth checking if at all possible (that she's single, that she's not gay, that she isn't a member of a community that wouldn't allow her to date you, etc.) just to minimise the possibility of embarrassment. But otherwise it's a question I guess of making the judgment over whether you like her enough to deal with the ensuing complications (moderated by other factors like how confident you are that she likes you, whether romantically or personally, that she's decent enough not to make your life difficult if she's not interested etc.). Unfortunately that's not a decision we can really assist with I think.

[Recherché]

I am concerned that it might seem creepy if I suddenly adjust my schedule to coincide with her breaks, particularly as I would have to pay an inordinate amount of attention to when she takes them.

Don't adjust all of them all at once that would be slightly creepy. But trying to manufacture a little time to talk to her is perfectly normal. And if you feel like you're clicking further then I'd recommend not beating around here bush and directly asking her out on a date. Don't make a huge deal of it but don't be coy.

[VoxRationis]

Is there a typical or customary way in which a date is asked for that leaves it unambiguous but low-pressure? I am concerned that casual requests may be misinterpreted as platonic and formal ones explicitly using terms like "date" might be too forceful.

[Sivarias]

Is there a typical or customary way in which a date is asked for that leaves it unambiguous but low-pressure? I am concerned that casual requests may be misinterpreted as platonic and formal ones explicitly using terms like "date" might be too forceful.

Welcome to the difficulties of having to ask someone out!! Honestly, there isn't a one size fits all. In my experience, it's better to go the unambiguous "forceful" route. If she thinks it's a platonic date, but realizes before the actual date that it's a romantic one, it's the perfect recipe for her ghosting you because she doesn't want to be the "bad guy" and break your heart.

I would go the coffee break route, and as you two are getting comfortable with each other, (assuming you don't find out she's no longer single) say something alone the lines of "I think your really cool and I'd like to pursue this relationship wanna go see a movie/check out this winery/go skating/(relevant interest here)."

[Tvtyrant]

Is there a typical or customary way in which a date is asked for that leaves it unambiguous but low-pressure? I am concerned that casual requests may be misinterpreted as platonic and formal ones explicitly using terms like "date" might be too forceful.

I'm not an expert, but I think the latter is the preferred approach. It removes ambiguity and requires the asker to commit. Any approach that mitigates rejection also implies you aren't that interested.

[Recherché]

Sample size of one here but calling something a date doesn't make it feel more forceful to me and if you don't I'm very good at missing clues and assuming things are platonic.

[Liquor Box]

I advise against trying to pursue a romantic affair with this woman, though admittedly I'm the type that prefers to keep business and personal strictly separate. There are plenty of women out there who are not a co-worker of yours and you stand to lose more than to gain. You stand to gain romance (maybe), but you stand to lose your job. Your job provides you with a means of survival and is required to pay rent, water, food etc. Romance does not provide any of those things.

I disagree with this, partly for the reason Aedilred said - losing his job would be very unlikely unless Vox behaves innappropriately (or she says he did). The only thing Vox stands likely to lose is the friendship of this person and perhaps a relaxed work environment. What he stands to gain is greater IMO.

At least where I come from lots and lots of people form relationships with people from their work - some just for causal sex, but others go on to marry their workmates. Often it doesn't work out, but even then it's not that big of a deal. You say there are a lot of non-workmate females out there, and that is true, but it may not be so easy for Vox to meet those women, screen whether he likes them, and then form sufficient connection to feel comfortable asking them out.

TVtyrant said:I'm not an expert, but I think the latter is the preferred approach. It removes ambiguity and requires the asker to commit. Any approach that mitigates rejection also implies you aren't that interested.

Again I disagree. The ambiguity is a good thing for the following reasons:
- It allows Vox to get a better feel for whether she's interested (during the date) before making his sexual advance.
- It lessens the rejection and awkwardness if she says no (she just said no to a causal thing, so both can pretend (and maybe even believe) that it was not a romantic rejection
- If she is undecided whether she wants to have sex with Vox, it gives her a chance to spend time with him outside a work setting. I think it actually increases the chances of her being interested if he shows her a good time on the 'date'. Asking her on a romantic date (which suggests a degree of romantic expectation) from the outset is asking her to commit very early.

Also, I don't think there is any implication that Vox isn't interested if he merely asks her on out casually - in shows more interest than doing nothing. Admittedly, it shows less interest than a formal romantic date, but I think that's a good thing. Different places/cultures may have different societal expectations, but my own experience is that asking someone on a formal date in the way you suggest is likely to come across as odd (even to a person who is interested), and that going out casually, then making a move later is far more the norm.

[Chen]

Again I disagree. The ambiguity is a good thing for the following reasons:
- It allows Vox to get a better feel for whether she's interested (during the date) before making his sexual advance.
- It lessens the rejection and awkwardness if she says no (she just said no to a causal thing, so both can pretend (and maybe even believe) that it was not a romantic rejection
- If she is undecided whether she wants to have sex with Vox, it gives her a chance to spend time with him outside a work setting. I think it actually increases the chances of her being interested if he shows her a good time on the 'date'. Asking her on a romantic date (which suggests a degree of romantic expectation) from the outset is asking her to commit very early.

Also, I don't think there is any implication that Vox isn't interested if he merely asks her on out casually - in shows more interest than doing nothing. Admittedly, it shows less interest than a formal romantic date, but I think that's a good thing. Different places/cultures may have different societal expectations, but my own experience is that asking someone on a formal date in the way you suggest is likely to come across as odd (even to a person who is interested), and that going out casually, then making a move later is far more the norm.

I think the point was to make sure it's taken as a date and not just some random get together between friends. Ambiguity could lead to the latter which can cause all sorts of issues. If you're romantically interested in someone and asking them out, make sure it's clear what you're asking. Yes it might be more awkward at the moment, but you're just pushing that awkwardness down the line (and increasing it) if it comes out later.

[VoxRationis]

Again I disagree. The ambiguity is a good thing for the following reasons:
- It allows Vox to get a better feel for whether she's interested (during the date) before making his sexual advance.
...
- If she is undecided whether she wants to have sex with Vox...

To be clear, I'm not planning on asking her to have sex. I mentioned that I was concerned about interpretation as sexual harassment because laws and policies regarding said tend to be sensitive and based primarily on the subjective experience of the accuser,* so in a hypothetical world where she overreacts, I might not be on solid ground. My current (nebulous) plans for the date are mostly revolving around chatting over drinks or dinner and maybe playing some games or some other activity of that ilk.

Spoiler: *

Show

Which, to be clear again, isn't to belittle or downplay the seriousness of genuine sexual harassment. It's just that a lot of policies on the subject are written such that politely asking for a date and respectfully accepting whatever answer is given is technically as much in violation of the policy as many far more objectionable actions. My workplace's official sexual harassment policy, as defined in the employee handbook, has a line about "unwanted advances," which is incredibly broad and is notable in that one can't know whether certain advances (like asking someone on a date) are wanted before making them.

[JNAProductions]

To be clear, I'm not planning on asking her to have sex. I mentioned that I was concerned about interpretation as sexual harassment because laws and policies regarding said tend to be sensitive and based primarily on the subjective experience of the accuser,* so in a hypothetical world where she overreacts, I might not be on solid ground. My current (nebulous) plans for the date are mostly revolving around chatting over drinks or dinner and maybe playing some games or some other activity of that ilk.

Spoiler: *

Show

Which, to be clear again, isn't to belittle or downplay the seriousness of genuine sexual harassment. It's just that a lot of policies on the subject are written such that politely asking for a date and respectfully accepting whatever answer is given is technically as much in violation of the policy as many far more objectionable actions. My workplace's official sexual harassment policy, as defined in the employee handbook, has a line about "unwanted advances," which is incredibly broad and is notable in that one can't know whether certain advances (like asking someone on a date) are wanted before making them.

Well, since you like her, I'd assume she's a reasonable person, right? So, if you're respectful, the risk of her filing a harassment claim should be pretty much null.

Not having any personal experience on either side of the harassment suit, I can't say for sure what would happen if that DOES happen, but you know her better than we do. It's your risk to take.

[VoxRationis]

Well, since you like her, I'd assume she's a reasonable person, right? So, if you're respectful, the risk of her filing a harassment claim should be pretty much null.

That is my assessment, but I tend to at least mention the worst-case scenario when considering things.

[Chen]

That is my assessment, but I tend to at least mention the worst-case scenario when considering things.

That's not very imaginative. One would think the worst case scenario would be something like her bludgeoning you to death with her stapler or something.

[ve4grm]

To be clear, I'm not planning on asking her to have sex. I mentioned that I was concerned about interpretation as sexual harassment because laws and policies regarding said tend to be sensitive and based primarily on the subjective experience of the accuser,* so in a hypothetical world where she overreacts, I might not be on solid ground. My current (nebulous) plans for the date are mostly revolving around chatting over drinks or dinner and maybe playing some games or some other activity of that ilk.

Spoiler: *

Show

Which, to be clear again, isn't to belittle or downplay the seriousness of genuine sexual harassment. It's just that a lot of policies on the subject are written such that politely asking for a date and respectfully accepting whatever answer is given is technically as much in violation of the policy as many far more objectionable actions. My workplace's official sexual harassment policy, as defined in the employee handbook, has a line about "unwanted advances," which is incredibly broad and is notable in that one can't know whether certain advances (like asking someone on a date) are wanted before making them.

The fact that you're concerned about these things makes me think that you're not going to be too much at risk of it being interpreted as such. The people who are most at risk of that are those who ignore the reality of sexual harassment in the first place.

Remain watchful of that, make sure you don't get creepy or stalker-ish, and back off if she seems uncomfortable, and you should be ok.

Back to the actual issue at hand, though...

I've known plenty of people who met through work, or work together after they met, or whatever. It can be fine. The fact that there's no power imbalance is key. The fact that you're actually in different departments is even better.

Your ex is right that in an ideal situation you'd be able to arrange some group hangouts where you can get to know this person better. If you can set something up (say, inviting a bunch of work friends over for a board game afternoon on your day off) then by all means do so.

That said, it seems like this isn't the ideal situation, and doing that may be difficult.

If that's the case, then feel free to just ask her. (You'd have to ask her eventually anyways.) But keep some ground rules in mind.

• Stay reserved. It's aggressive enough having someone ask you out, so avoid being overbearing while doing so.
• Give her an out. Don't corner her, make sure it's easy for her to walk away if she needs to. DO NOT ask her in an elevator!!!
• That said, do make sure it's relatively private. The two of you chatting, not a group of coworkers. You don't want to add social pressure to an uncomfortable situation, so avoid an audience. (They can be nearby, as you said it's just a big working room of desks, just avoid asking her right in front of them.)
• Don't rush into it. Chat with her for a few minutes before asking, so you can bring it up as part of the conversation. If you just run at her and blurt it out, she might not know how to react because her mental state hasn't adjusted to you yet. This will allow her to be at ease when you ask.
• Keep it low key. Say you like her, or you're interested. Don't confess your undying love and that you want to father her children.
• ONLY ASK ONCE! If you ask, and she says no, then she now knows you're interested. If she later decides she's interested, she'll come to you. If you ask again and again, that's where harassment comes in.

I'd go with something along the lines of:

"Hey, so, I really like talking with you like this. And I don't know if there's anything there, but I'd kick myself if I didn't at least try to get to know you better. So would you like to go out for coffee sometime before work?"

This way it's hesitant, and hopeful, not already assuming the attraction exists or overbearing. You're clearly asking for a "date", but it's couched in the language of getting to know the person better in the first place, so it's not asking for immediate commitment or anything.

If she says no, smile and accept it. Tell her that's cool, you still like having her as a friend. Keep things friendly, and take your cue from her as to whether she's done with talking for the moment.

If you play your cards right and keep it low key, you'll still come away with a friend and no HR complaints.

HR ISSUES

So, in the unlikely event that she reports you to HR for just asking, as long as you were respectful while doing so and weren't aggressive you shouldn't have any issues. Just tell the truth, that you asked her out once, she said no, and you accepted it and moved on as coworkers.

THAT SAID, while workplace romances can be fine, workplace breakups are where it gets REALLY awkward. Know that, if you do enter into a workplace romance, a breakup can easily ruin your job for you. If it's messy, then HR may get involved. But even if it's not, it can make your daily like awkward.

That said, the fact that you're on good terms with your ex says to me that you know a bit about managing a breakup. Just something to keep in mind.

[VoxRationis]

I thought of that. We don't have staplers at our desks, so I'm safe there.

[Liquor Box]

To be clear, I'm not planning on asking her to have sex. I mentioned that I was concerned about interpretation as sexual harassment because laws and policies regarding said tend to be sensitive and based primarily on the subjective experience of the accuser,* so in a hypothetical world where she overreacts, I might not be on solid ground. My current (nebulous) plans for the date are mostly revolving around chatting over drinks or dinner and maybe playing some games or some other activity of that ilk.

Spoiler: *

Show

Which, to be clear again, isn't to belittle or downplay the seriousness of genuine sexual harassment. It's just that a lot of policies on the subject are written such that politely asking for a date and respectfully accepting whatever answer is given is technically as much in violation of the policy as many far more objectionable actions. My workplace's official sexual harassment policy, as defined in the employee handbook, has a line about "unwanted advances," which is incredibly broad and is notable in that one can't know whether certain advances (like asking someone on a date) are wanted before making them.

You are right, that part of the policy sounds incredibly broad - and I can understand your worry. Even though you think a person is reasonable, you cannot know how they will react until they are put in the given situation. One would hope that such an ambiguous clause would be interpreted narrowly (ie, making an advance despite knowing it was unwanted - usually because having been told as such), but I suppose the way things are going you can never tell.

[Crow]

I wouldn't do it. There are more than enough potential partners out there than to have to look for them at work.

When I'm finished with my workday, the last thing I want to hear about is my workplace or hang out with any of the people who work there. I like them all; but it is bad enough that I have to hear about my job on the news occasionally. Once I clock out, I'd just as soon pretend bit doesn't exist. So when my partner starts telling me over dinner about her day, it is nice that she is working somewhere that I don't. I like hearing about her days because it is something different than mine.

[Anonymouswizard]

Only about a day and a half until I visit my girlfriend, I'm incredibly nervous. It's making the fact I'm actually in a relationship now scary, even though I really want to be near her and just hug her and kiss her as much as I can.

[Tvtyrant]

What is the best way to do first messages online? My approach has led to 1 response out of the last 100 people, so clearly I an doing it wrong.

[Comrade]

Only about a day and a half until I visit my girlfriend, I'm incredibly nervous. It's making the fact I'm actually in a relationship now scary, even though I really want to be near her and just hug her and kiss her as much as I can.

Is it your first time meeting her face-to-face? It's natural to feel anxious at such times-- just try to relax and enjoy spending time with her, and have fun.

[dehro]

What is the best way to do first messages online? My approach has led to 1 response out of the last 100 people, so clearly I an doing it wrong.

I assume you are approaching people on some sort of dating site or app?

go through their profile thoroughly and send them a message in which you react (preferably in a positive or at least funny way) to something they talk about.
if you share a passion, comment on it and tell them what you like about it, if you find something they say funny, try to reply in kind or pay them a compliment about that thing, if they mention something you're unfamiliar with, ask for clarification.. if they declare a specific interest, allegiance, set of values or other ideal, ask what brought them to it or otherwise demonstrate an interest. best is if you manage to put an open question in your contact, something that would either push them into at least replying to that or checking out your profile.
if there are multiple things in their profile that interest you, tell them just that, maybe comment on more than one.
if they could teach you something and you are interested in at least talk about that something, tell them so...
try to get a feel of their character and what they might react to..
stick to their rules if they put any rules down in their profile.. if it says "you must be this tall to ride on the bus".. don't contact them if you're not at least that tall.
in general, don't approach people that you don't have anything in common with other than a geographical convenience. if you do, don't expect a call back. if nothing specific in their profile gives you an angle to start a conversation or speaks of common interests, move on.
try to be selective. Yes, it is a numbers game and it's probably stacked against you, but it does not pay to send hundreds of contacts, unless you have the thick skin that is needed to take 99.9 no's in a 100 messages... if you select the profiles to find those you actually may have something in common with, you are bound to get marginally better results.
keep at it and exercise patience.

[Tvtyrant]

I assume you are approaching people on some sort of dating site or app?

go through their profile thoroughly and send them a message in which you react (preferably in a positive or at least funny way) to something they talk about.
if you share a passion, comment on it and tell them what you like about it, if you find something they say funny, try to reply in kind or pay them a compliment about that thing, if they mention something you're unfamiliar with, ask for clarification.. if they declare a specific interest, allegiance, set of values or other ideal, ask what brought them to it or otherwise demonstrate an interest. best is if you manage to put an open question in your contact, something that would either push them into at least replying to that or checking out your profile.
if there are multiple things in their profile that interest you, tell them just that, maybe comment on more than one.
if they could teach you something and you are interested in at least talk about that something, tell them so...
try to get a feel of their character and what they might react to..
stick to their rules if they put any rules down in their profile.. if it says "you must be this tall to ride on the bus".. don't contact them if you're not at least that tall.
in general, don't approach people that you don't have anything in common with other than a geographical convenience. if you do, don't expect a call back. if nothing specific in their profile gives you an angle to start a conversation or speaks of common interests, move on.
try to be selective. Yes, it is a numbers game and it's probably stacked against you, but it does not pay to send hundreds of contacts, unless you have the thick skin that is needed to take 99.9 no's in a 100 messages... if you select the profiles to find those you actually may have something in common with, you are bound to get marginally better results.
keep at it and exercise patience.

Everyone is 95% and up.

Usual messages are along the lines of: "Hello!

I see you like hiking as well. What is your favorite hike?"

Then nothing.

[Anymage]

Everyone is 95% and up.

Usual messages are along the lines of: "Hello!

I see you like hiking as well. What is your favorite hike?"

Then nothing.

Since only one big site uses match percentages, the "be more attractive" answer became even more of a factor last week. Nobody there will even know that you messaged them unless they come across your profile now, they won't see said message unless they actively look at your profile, and your message won't show up in their inbox unless they actively right swipe you or reply back.

As far as your messages, I'd really have to see your outbox for that. And ideally, have some of the gals here show you some of their inboxes. (Ignoring for a moment that inbox spam has been severely cut down, and outboxes have been removed entirely.) I don't think you understand how many copies of "I see you like X. That's cool. What's your favorite X" any reasonably attractive girl gets. I don't think you grasp what the sheer weight of banal sameyness looks like, or how quickly it all merges together into into a nondescript, ultimately ignorable buzz.

[Tvtyrant]

Since only one big site uses match percentages, the "be more attractive" answer became even more of a factor last week. Nobody there will even know that you messaged them unless they come across your profile now, they won't see said message unless they actively look at your profile, and your message won't show up in their inbox unless they actively right swipe you or reply back.

Okay, switching sites seems a good plan then.

As far as your messages, I'd really have to see your outbox for that. And ideally, have some of the gals here show you some of their inboxes. (Ignoring for a moment that inbox spam has been severely cut down, and outboxes have been removed entirely.) I don't think you understand how many copies of "I see you like X. That's cool. What's your favorite X" any reasonably attractive girl gets. I don't think you grasp what the sheer weight of banal sameyness looks like, or how quickly it all merges together into into a nondescript, ultimately ignorable buzz.

So I get to do all the work, get seen as boring and samey for it, and get ignored constantly to boot? Why didn't I try online dating sooner!

Probably going to jump to eharmony then. If no is even going to see my messages they might as well be prepackaged.

[lio45]

Yeah, sorry, I agree with Anymage: "I see you like X. That's cool. What's your favorite X" is not something that stands out at all. You should try to write much longer messages clearly showing you've read her profile and giving her one or two reasons to reply.

[Recherché]

Yeah when all you have to rely on is words they better be pretty darn good words. Make me laugh, show me that you're an interesting person yourself but also that you've actually gotten at least a little bit of a feel for who I am. "I see you like X. That's cool. What's your favorite X" tells me nothing about who you are as a person and why I should be interested in you. It doesn't even tell me if you really read through my profile or you just selected an interest at random.

[Tvtyrant]

Yeah when all you have to rely on is words they better be pretty darn good words. Make me laugh, show me that you're an interesting person yourself but also that you've actually gotten at least a little bit of a feel for who I am. "I see you like X. That's cool. What's your favorite X" tells me nothing about who you are as a person and why I should be interested in you. It doesn't even tell me if you really read through my profile or you just selected an interest at random.

Well for one I said "as well" because I am referring to something on both our profiles, such as one where I mentioned that I also liked singing disney songs (in her profile it mentions this and so does mine_ but prefer villain songs and her having a giant rabbit named Barnaby probably put us on opposite sides in the movie. Stuff like that.

If someone could post some of the ones they have sent or received that were really good, it will help me a lot.

[Anymage]

Well for one I said "as well" because I am referring to something on both our profiles, such as one where I mentioned that I also liked singing disney songs (in her profile it mentions this and so does mine_ but prefer villain songs and her having a giant rabbit named Barnaby probably put us on opposite sides in the movie. Stuff like that.

Something like what you just said shows that you actually know what you're talking about (you'd be surprised how many people use google to seem like they have an interest in common), and can have an actual conversation about it. Don't just acknowledge that you like Disney, embrace your inner Disney villain.

Once again, it all makes perfect sense if you understand the female experience*. Attractive girls will generally get enough messages that they can't reasonably devote much time, energy, or brainpower to each one. On top of that, given the nature of online dating, a massive chunk of the messages she does get will be focused on a few key topics in her profile. By the time she gets to any specific random message (say, yours), fatigue will likely have began setting in.

Tinder-like apps that require a mutual match in order to message can reduce some of the overhead, with the drawback that you'll have to learn a whole new skillset that makes yours a profile that invites right swipes. (Samey profiles are just as common as samey messages.) Otherwise, you'll need a message that can spark an easy conversation (so she doesn't have to think too much to get that ball rolling), and that's different from the usual enough to make you stand out. Specific style and length issues are for when you have more experience. But keep it limited to one topic (in the name of making it easy to reply to - see above), and feel free to go all out with that topic. Being polite to the point of being boring all but guarantees that nothing will happen.

*(This actually gets amusingly complicated when same-sex relationships enter the discussion, but that really isn't germane to you.)