afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Greymane]

I'm going to be running For Duty and Deity (I've begun updating the mechanics into 3.5). Would you, Afro, or anybody else for that matter, have any suggestions on enhancing the module's play experience for a group of players who have done almost no planar travel before?

I know the big thing is that belief shapes reality there, and heck, even the doorway to Grazz't's plane is there due to the creativity of the plane's inhabitants. Should the players be encouraged to open more doors on the Staircase or something? Or is there something I can do that's interesting with the Abyss?

[afroakuma]

Well, even if those are pathetic deities, their divine sparks are still valuable godly power...

They really aren't, not unless you're willing to take in the adjustments to your own being that might result. Far better to get their worshipers venerating what you represent.

And seizing the gnolls

Gnolls don't worship Gorellik, that's why he's pathetic now.

bullywugs and troglodytes as worshippers would provide a lot of worship...

If that were the case, why are Ramenos and Laogzed so weak? It's because they're not very effective worshipers.

Even their portafolios would be appealing to some of the most degenerate deities: Incabulos, Yurtrus and Urdlen come to mind...

Yurtrus is an orcish racial deity and would never stoop to pursuing the mass worship of another race. Urdlen is an abomination who would probably attempt to devour any of the three if they happened to be in his path, but who doesn't spare enough thought for the cosmic order to move outside his own layer. Incabulos wouldn't want the portfolios of any of the three.

What would be a reasonable home plane for an evil Rat God concerned mostly with urban life, the poor (especially in overthrowing the rich), General scheming, and mob-mentality leadership (in an ‘us Vs them’ sense)? I was thinking Dis or burrowed into Gehenna somewhere...

Both reasonable. Acheron in the junk warrens of Thuldanin could also be fun.

Also, there are hints of surviving Baatorians and Kamarel here and there... any clues to lingering Arborean precursors still about?

Traces of them would be found amidst the ruins of Pelion, if they would be found anywhere. Survivors? That we have not seen.

Troll Stalkers or Truzlanan (or Spirit Trolls, but those are something else in other editions) - the only reference I know of to these air elementals is in "Expedition to Castle Ravenloft" (which doesn't have a 'New Monsters' section so may not be the original source); so do you know any more about them or is this really their only reference?

They're actually spirit trolls. They're the same thing. Other text from the module spells it out.

Following on, Nicoramus talks about being in a 'war long forgotten' - my first thought was "air elemental + long ago war = War of Law and Chaos?" but that was isn't exactly forgotten and Nicoramus claims to have been victorious in the war (which is not the same as being on the winning side) not to mention that (s)he is Neutral in alignment. So, have you any suggestions as to what other war they might date from?

According to the module, the conflict in question was dubbed "the Jade Wars." To my current recollection there's no other reference to such a conflict. They were created by an ancient war mage.

I've got a question about the Court of Stars. If I understood it correctly, Queen Morwel is the only permanent member of the court, and other members are invited or dismissed at her whim. Currently only Faerinal and Gwynharwyf are members. Are ex-members known?

Her previous consorts were members, as are many shiere eladrin of goodly standing and the noble tulani eladrin.

Was Morwel the only queen the eladrin ever had?

Yes.

The Book of Exalted Deeds claimed that the every "temporary" member of the Court bears the title queen consort, is that true?

That sounds like a misread. Faerinaal and Gwynharwyf are both consorts of the queen, in every sense, but the full court most certainly would not qualify.

I'm going to be running For Duty and Deity (I've begun updating the mechanics into 3.5). Would you, Afro, or anybody else for that matter, have any suggestions on enhancing the module's play experience for a group of players who have done almost no planar travel before?

Depends, what sort of enhancement are you looking for? There's no end of things to offer.

I know the big thing is that belief shapes reality there, and heck, even the doorway to Grazz't's plane is there due to the creativity of the plane's inhabitants. Should the players be encouraged to open more doors on the Staircase or something? Or is there something I can do that's interesting with the Abyss?

More door-opening risks leading into a lot of tangents. The Infinite Staircase might not be the best setpiece for getting a taste of the Planes while moving from point A to point B. Let me know what kinds of goals you have in mind for the module and I can provide more specific assistance.

[Clistenes]

They really aren't, not unless you're willing to take in the adjustments to your own being that might result. Far better to get their worshipers venerating what you represent.

So you are in the "you are what you eat" school of thought?

But most canon examples didn't show either mortals or gods who usurped a portfolio and divine spark suffering such a change. Finder is still Finder, Kelemvor was very much still Kelemvor (and suffered because of that) and Midnight was still Midnight (and had troubles because of that too...).

Cyric changed, but mostly because he went mad. He didn't become lawful evil like Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul.

Of course, those come from FR novels, which went through a "it's relatively easy to kill gods and take their stuff" phase... so maybe you don't accept that as part of Afrocanon?

So, do you think that somebody who slayed say Kyuss or Erivatius and seized their godhood would become Kyuss or Erivatius?

Gnolls don't worship Gorellik, that's why he's pathetic now.

If that were the case, why are Ramenos and Laogzed so weak? It's because they're not very effective worshipers.

Well, a more effective deity might provoke a resurgence in worship...

[Caelestion]

Cyric was Lawful Evil as a mortal. He moved eastward after becoming a god.

[Bronk]

I'm going to be running For Duty and Deity (I've begun updating the mechanics into 3.5). Would you, Afro, or anybody else for that matter, have any suggestions on enhancing the module's play experience for a group of players who have done almost no planar travel before?

I know the big thing is that belief shapes reality there, and heck, even the doorway to Grazz't's plane is there due to the creativity of the plane's inhabitants. Should the players be encouraged to open more doors on the Staircase or something? Or is there something I can do that's interesting with the Abyss?

I've been running this as well. There's a list of potential encounters on page 19, but here are some of the things I've done so far:

Spoiler: Some ideas for you.

Show

I had my group use a different entrance to the Staircase, and I had them find it and observe the comings and goings of planar creatures for a while.

Introduce the lillendi. They protect the Staircase, but not every landing.

Once they're on the staircase, they can run into all sorts of planar travelers:
-Individual travelers or merchants from planar races.
-People from other worlds, with different styles of clothing, weapons, and accents.
-Wandering Angels.
-Wandering Demons and Devils.
-Groups of adventurers just like them, but going the other way.
-Traveling lillends, or ones guarding a landing.
-There's also the Nowhere Inn, that big landing with a lot of planar travelers stationed there, detailed on page 20+.

Here are some interactions that went over well with my group:

You can see - but not interact with - distant parts of the staircase, seemingly hanging in space. I showed one section where a Klurichir was stomping around, and another where a group of cheerful mustevals looked up, and the two groups waved at each other.

They ran into a lost cat that had wandered onto the stairway when someone else left the door open too long. It was sad, but a druid talked to it and was able to track it back to it's door so that it could be reunited with its owner. During the drop off, I described a quick look out the door, where there was a strange sun and interesting architecture. Then they were back to the stairs...

They ran into a lost dwarf that refused to admit he was lost. They ended up figuring out the general direction he'd come from and tried to use some reverse psychology on him.

They were ambushed by a group of stair pirates who had hidden themselves on a landing.

They saved a lost girl just as a wandering devil was convincing her to sign her soul away in exchange for getting her home.

Characters used 'Speak With Plants' to talk to the vines near the first door they entered, and compared personalities to vines near other doors, particularly Grazz't's.

Basically, most of the people they meet on the Staircase could be planar creatures of one form or another, and you could limit interactions with other doorways to descriptions of the doors themselves, and just glimpses of whatever's on the other side.

But most canon examples didn't show either mortals or gods who usurped a portfolio and divine spark suffering such a change. Finder is still Finder, Kelemvor was very much still Kelemvor (and suffered because of that) and Midnight was still Midnight (and had troubles because of that too...).

Kelemvor and Midnight were forced to change later in the series (maybe in the Prince of Lies?) by symbolically giving up their former selves/loves/goals and being forced to adhere to their portfolios.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Show

Cyric even forced it out of them as tears, which he gleefully drank.

[Darth Ultron]

So you are in the "you are what you eat" school of thought?

But most canon examples didn't show either mortals or gods who usurped a portfolio and divine spark suffering such a change. Finder is still Finder, Kelemvor was very much still Kelemvor (and suffered because of that) and Midnight was still Midnight (and had troubles because of that too...).

This did play out in the FR Novels and Lore.

Finder did add ''corruption'' to art, and corruptible art, and got a taint of evil.

Kelemvor did become more of a passionless, emotionless Judge of the Dead....and allow Undead to exist.

Mystra did become neutral and stood back from placing any judgments on how magic was used, and when back to the Old Way of ''the use of magic is good''.

Cyric was already quite evil as a mortal...but there is no doubt he got worse as a god. (and that depends on if you think he was really Mad or that was all just an act).

Now granted all this comes at the end of 2E, and when 3E roles around they toss out like 95% of the Realms Lore, so none of this stuff is ever picked up on or mentioned again over the years.

[Clistenes]

Kelemvor and Midnight were forced to change later in the series (maybe in the Prince of Lies?) by symbolically giving up their former selves/loves/goals and being forced to adhere to their portfolios.

Spoiler: Spoiler

Show

Cyric even forced it out of them as tears, which he gleefully drank.

This did play out in the FR Novels and Lore.

Finder did add ''corruption'' to art, and corruptible art, and got a taint of evil.

Kelemvor did become more of a passionless, emotionless Judge of the Dead....and allow Undead to exist.

Mystra did become neutral and stood back from placing any judgments on how magic was used, and when back to the Old Way of ''the use of magic is good''.

Cyric was already quite evil as a mortal...but there is no doubt he got worse as a god. (and that depends on if you think he was really Mad or that was all just an act).

Now granted all this comes at the end of 2E, and when 3E roles around they toss out like 95% of the Realms Lore, so none of this stuff is ever picked up on or mentioned again over the years.

Kelemvor and Midnight were forced to change because they weren't doing their duties properly, not because their adquired divinity changed them from inside. If they had been deities of something relatively unimportant to the Greater Powers, like say Tea and Pastry, or Shoe and Lace Making, chances are they wouldn't have been pressed to change.

Bhaal, Myrkul and Bane were Lawful Evil... Cyric went from Lawful Evil to Chaotic Evil after becoming a deity... he became less alike to those gods than he was as a mortal...

About Finder... I dunno... he seemed a better person after becoming a deity than he was before. Mortal Finder was a selfish, arrogant *******... Divine Finder seemed humbler and nicer... And he turned "Corruption" into "Renovation".

Using the examples of Kyuss (God of Corpses, Worms and Corruption of the Flesh) and Erivatius (God of Time and Death) again, a character who did like Finder and adapted their portfolios to their own alignment could become the god of Embalming, Burials, Tombs and Proper Funerary Practices and the god of Longevity.

[afroakuma]

So you are in the "you are what you eat" school of thought?

No, I'm in the "the purpose of acquiring a portfolio is to draw the worship associated with said portfolio, and over a long enough span of time said worship will cause changes to a deity as the faithful pass on and join with said deity in the afterlife" school of thought - you know, the Planescape one.

But most canon examples didn't show either mortals or gods who usurped a portfolio and divine spark suffering such a change. Finder is still Finder, Kelemvor was very much still Kelemvor (and suffered because of that) and Midnight was still Midnight (and had troubles because of that too...).

Sure, but your examples are all gratuitously flawed in one very important fashion: none of them has been subjected to a particularly long time scale. Each of them is a mortal who has relatively recently come into their divinity - yes, even Finder.

Cyric changed, but mostly because he went mad. He didn't become lawful evil like Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul.

Nor would he have any particular reason to - "law" wasn't the portfolio of any of the gods he ganked, and as he cracked he proved unsuited to those elements of their portfolios better calibrated away from Chaos. By the end, he held barely any of the portfolios of the Dead Three despite having started with all of them - Myrkul's went to Kelemvor, Bane's to Iyachtu Xvim, and only Bhaal's portfolio of murder really remained with the Prince of Lies. He wasn't capable of becoming what he needed to be in order to reign over their domains, nor were his followers capable of helping him be so, and so it came to pass that he was made less.

So, do you think that somebody who slayed say Kyuss or Erivatius and seized their godhood would become Kyuss or Erivatius?

Not at all. There would be certain qualities to the divinity of each that would in some fashion carry over, but as we saw with Finder, it's possible to take the spark of divinity and - with the help of a patron - make it one's own. The difference, again, is that you're comparing mortals attaining divinity by claiming the spark of a dead god to old, established deities consuming one another. The comparison is not valid.

[hamishspence]

Sure, but your examples are all gratuitously flawed in one very important fashion: none of them has been subjected to a particularly long time scale. Each of them is a mortal who has relatively recently come into their divinity - yes, even Finder.

Especially Finder. He didn't become a deity until shortly after the Time of Troubles ended.

[Clistenes]

No, I'm in the "the purpose of acquiring a portfolio is to draw the worship associated with said portfolio, and over a long enough span of time said worship will cause changes to a deity as the faithful pass on and join with said deity in the afterlife" school of thought - you know, the Planescape one.

Mmmm... I think a deity could do as Finder did, and crop the adquired portfolios to become more palatable... Gorellik has Hunting as part of his portfolio, Laogzed's portfolio of Gluttony could be reinvented as the portfolio of Food and Cuisine, and Ramenos's portfolio of Somnolence and Intoxication could be cropped into Sleep and Dreams...

But anyways... I take that you think that, without the portfolios themselves, the divine spark is useless, or maybe it is just inseparable from the portfolio... as in, you can't take the divine spark of a defeated to rise up a couple divine ranks without taking the portfolio and worshippers too...?

[afroakuma]

I'm finding the formatting of these questions to be very irritating.

And no, you don't just eat the other guy and go up a couple of notches. The real value lies in the elements that power the continual divinity of an entity - the portfolio and the worship. Belief is what matters to keep deities in power, not bigger-fish-ism. There's a reason the dwarven pantheon hasn't just chopped up Abbathor for soup.

If you want to see an example of an old-school deity doing it, look at Shar. She murdered Ibrandul, not to devour his essence, but so she could pose as him while drawing in his worshipers. She checkmated Eshowdow out of the business by syncretizing her religion with his. By and large, gods do not like attacking other gods - it exposes them to a host of other rivals and requires a sizeable power commitment even when the difference in strength is large.

[PhoenixPhyre]

@afroakuma:

(a) How are the elemental planes of the various Prime Material planes related to one another?
(b) Can one get from, say, Greyhawk to Toril by traveling solely in the elemental planes?
(c) What about between planets orbiting the same star (within one crystal sphere, to use spelljammer terms)?
(d) Does this vary depending on the source material (planescape vs spelljammer, for example)?

I'm asking because I'm considering a setting feature where each planet in a star system has its own, variably-sized set of elemental planes and considering how it might work if they overlap during parts of the planets' orbits. I'm looking for how the elemental planes and their interactions with the Material have been handled elsewhere in published settings, or for advice on making this idea work if there is no relevant canon.

PS. I hope this formatting of question isn't annoying.

[afroakuma]

@afroakuma:

(a) How are the elemental planes of the various Prime Material planes related to one another?

If you mean worlds such as Krynn, Oerth, and Toril, then their elemental planes are all the exact same elemental planes.

(b) Can one get from, say, Greyhawk to Toril by traveling solely in the elemental planes?

Technically one can't get from Oerth to the Elemental Plane of Fire without "traveling" through a Transitive Plane, but let's assume you've got a gate open on either side, in which case yes.

(c) What about between planets orbiting the same star (within one crystal sphere, to use spelljammer terms)?

No reason why not.

(d) Does this vary depending on the source material (planescape vs spelljammer, for example)?

Nope.

PS. I hope this formatting of question isn't annoying.

It is not.

[PhoenixPhyre]

If you mean worlds such as Krynn, Oerth, and Toril, then their elemental planes are all the exact same elemental planes.

Technically one can't get from Oerth to the Elemental Plane of Fire without "traveling" through a Transitive Plane, but let's assume you've got a gate open on either side, in which case yes.

No reason why not.

Nope.

It is not.

Thanks.

(follow-up) Can I assume such a trip (through Elemental Fire from Oerth to Toril or vice versa) would require traversing the deeper reaches of the plane (where things start getting weird(er)? or could you do it in the relatively "normal" border regions?

(additional) There's no distance compression, so that would take a very long time (like walking between the relevant crystal spheres, if such were possible), right?

[afroakuma]

(follow-up) Can I assume such a trip (through Elemental Fire from Oerth to Toril or vice versa) would require traversing the deeper reaches of the plane (where things start getting weird(er)? or could you do it in the relatively "normal" border regions?

No requirement of any sort. Really the way you're doing it, most likely, is just gating or plane shifting; there's no "Border Elemental" and natural rifts are uncommon to say the least.

(additional) There's no distance compression, so that would take a very long time (like walking between the relevant crystal spheres, if such were possible), right?

There's no distance compression, but again see above re: magic. The Elemental Planes aren't Transitive; they don't naturally mirror or let out into the Prime.

[PhoenixPhyre]

No requirement of any sort. Really the way you're doing it, most likely, is just gating or plane shifting; there's no "Border Elemental" and natural rifts are uncommon to say the least.



There's no distance compression, but again see above re: magic. The Elemental Planes aren't Transitive; they don't naturally mirror or let out into the Prime.

Ah. I had known that but hadn't fully grasped the implications for travel. Thanks.

[Mr Adventurer]

Is there any further information on the gods of the other cults of Cynidicea than is present in Dragon 315, Return to the Lost City? Gorm, Usamigaras, and Madarua?

[enderlord99]

Ah. I had known that but hadn't fully grasped the implications for travel. Thanks.

One way of looking at it is that you can't use the Elemental Plane of Fire for travel; you can only use portals to travel that merely happen to connect to that plane.

[mattie_p]

So in my 3.5 Eberron campaign I've decided to borrow from 4e and have Baator as a demiplane in the astral sea. In keeping with Keith Baker's vision however, I don't want it to be alone. There must be a dozen + 1 that is unavailable.

What other"standard" planes would be well suited for introduction there?

[enderlord99]

So in my 3.5 Eberron campaign I've decided to borrow from 4e and have Baator as a demiplane in the astral sea.

That's a bad idea, but not as bad as mentioning it here...

[mattie_p]

That's a bad idea, but not as bad as mentioning it here...

I understand that, in your opinion, it's a bad idea. That's ok, presumably you aren't a player in my campaign. (It's also related to the day of mourning, which the DM is basically given free reign to invent anything and everything. Also, Mr. Baker wrote that if it's in D&D, it has a place in Eberron. )

But can I also ask why asking for suggestions here would be a worse idea?

Seems to me that a discussion thread about cosmology of the planes would be a very likely place to get some helpful opinions.

[enderlord99]

But can I also ask why asking for suggestions here would be a worse idea?

Afro doesn't like the 4e cosmology, to put it mildly. This is in the 3e subforum for a reason.

Seems to me that a discussion thread about cosmology of the planes would be a very likely place to get some helpful opinions.

It would be, if what you were doing were even remotely compatible with the Great Wheel. Unfortunately, Baator can't be a demiplane (unless you put something else in the LE part of the Great Wheel.)

[Mr Adventurer]

It would be, if what you were doing were even remotely compatible with the Great Wheel. Unfortunately, Baator can't be a demiplane (unless you put something else in the LE part of the Great Wheel.)

Eberron doesn't use the Wheel. Even if it did, a person could change it for their setting.

[Dalmosh]

How common is the disease Warp Touch in Limbo, and what might be the most common ways you could catch it there?

[mattie_p]

Eberron doesn't use the Wheel. Even if it did, a person could change it for their setting.

Exactly. Thus my question. I believe it would add value to introduce"traditional" planes to Eberron, as 4e suggested. I think it offers much value to me, as the DM, to draw from the experience of the playground.

Again, If there's one demiplane, there's probably a dozen +1.. so any suggestions are taken into consideration. Baator is in and I think sigil will be in too. I want to honor the creator of the setting while throwing some additional opportunity for mischief.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Exactly. Thus my question. I believe it would add value to introduce"traditional" planes to Eberron, as 4e suggested. I think it offers much value to me, as the DM, to draw from the experience of the playground.

To figure out what other planes would work well for your setup, the main questions would be (A) Why specifically Baator? and (B) Why a separate demiplane?

Eberron already has places for fiends to be and to hook Hells- and Abyss-related plots into (Shavarath for Blood War stuff, Khyber for "sealed and plotting archdevils and demon princes" stuff, the Demon Wastes for "oh crap we're surrounded by endless hordes of fiends" stuff, and so forth), so you can get most of the benefits of having Baator around while staying within the feel of the setting by having "Baator" simply be e.g. a specific region of Shavarath that's been under baatezu control for so long that it became extra Hells-ish or a part of Khyber with a strong overlapping Shavarath and Fierna manifest zones, and the addition of a separate Baator plane in 4e Eberron (4eberron?) really didn't add anything to the setting (and screwed up the thirteen-minus-one theme, as you noted).

If the answer to question (A) is "because 4e did it" or the answer to question (B) is "because I want a place to set devil-related adventures" then you'd be better off just using those existing parts of the setting. If the answers to those questions are more substantial, that can help narrow down what other plane-into-demiplane conversions would best support your goals mechanically and thematically.

[mattie_p]

Ok.so I haven't yet figured out how the day of mourning occurred. In my research into the day ( by the way, the campaign has centered so far on a single benefactor that works on behalf of Cyre. The fact that none of the PC's come from Cyre is immaterial, they like the money and the work so far) I discovered that 4e has Baator as introduced into the campaign around the same time as the day of mourning.

This is an interesting development and I like it. Because I like to drop hints and stuff with repurcussions elsewhere that players might not see for weeks months or years. If they follow that trail well I make it up until I have time to plan.

I don't know if they will ever pursue this, but if they ever get to that point there's another plot twist waiting. I'm more darths and droids and much less DM of the Ring. I roll with the players.

I spend time trying to figure out what plots the kingdoms and the dragonmarked houses are doing. Much of this will never be seen, and I'm ok with that. This might be another red herring as far as their concerned, or it might be vital information once it's discovered.

Anyway I digress, perhaps a new thread would be the best place to address this hypothetical question.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Ok.so I haven't yet figured out how the day of mourning occurred.

There's no official explanation; it's deliberately unanswered so that it can be an "insert plot hook here" point for DMs to use as they wish and to allow them to drop any sorts of Mourning-related hooks into official material that they want without fear of contradiction since it's all speculation anyway.

Anyway I digress, perhaps a new thread would be the best place to address this hypothetical question.

It sounds like it's less an issue of specific planar mechanics of an Eberronian Baator, then, and more of a "this is interesting, let's see where this goes" sort of thing. In which case yes, another thread would probably be best.

[afroakuma]

But can I also ask why asking for suggestions here would be a worse idea?

I suspect they believe that I would be less than helpful. To be fair, they're not wrong.

perhaps a new thread would be the best place to address this hypothetical question.

I would tend to agree. To put it politely, and not at all inaccurately at that, your question is not within my area of specialization. I suspect more productive discussion and opinions could be procured in a new thread.

[Raz Dazzle]

Why is the baseline drow more powerful than the baseline surface elf? Why did their transformation include a power boost?