afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[Lapak]

Speaking of the Lady, since I have only a few video games previous to 3e as my older D&D exposure, where does she and Sigil come from? Just a Mary Sue x 1 billion from gygax?

I tell you in the spirit of good humor, and recognizing that you own your own lack of background here, that the last sentence is so very far off that it's hilarious.

Sigil and the Lady were as far as I know original to the 2e Planescape setting, and Gygax was more of the "even archdevils don't crack three digits in hit points and are eminently killable" school than the invincible-NPC school when it came to statting things.

The Lady strikes me not as a Mary Sue but as a key part of a setting that attempted to reintroduce the unknown-and-unknowable factor to a cosmology that had been essentially turned into an exotic potion of the ordinary adventuring world in most games while at the same time making a playable campaign setting. There are elements that the PCs can (and are expected to) interact with and influence, like Factions, and there are elements that are an essential part of the cosmos that they can't really change (like the Lady of Pain.)

[Eldan]

Heh. Ah, yes. Old edition god statblocks:

[gkathellar]

Coupled with that, the Demons and Devils in Sigil seem to be less destructive or difficult to deal with than those in their home plane. Does proximity to Sigil and the Spire induce neutrality in outsiders? Does this apply to other planes as well, so the Eladrin held in the Abyss would fall slowly to Evil and the prisoner in Elysium become slowly reformed?

Demons and devils in Sigil have to behave themselves or else they'll get ganked, either by the local authorities if they act out on the small scale, or by the Lady of Pain if they try to bring a war.

It's also worth noting that in many parts of the Lower Planes, the Abyss included (Graz'zt and Maglubiyet's realms in particular serve as example cases), a veneer of civility is maintained for one reason or another. Evil isn't always overt.

Speaking of the Lady, since I have only a few video games previous to 3e as my older D&D exposure, where does she and Sigil come from? Just a Mary Sue x 1 billion from gygax?

Sigil and the Lady of Pain are first described in the Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set, written by David Cook. Gygax had nothing to do with it.

In addition, and this cannot be emphasized enough, Her Serenity is not a character. As a rule, the Lady of Pain doesn't communicate, has no apparent motives, and does not so much enforce her will as give a name and a face to natural law. She's no more a Mary Sue than the River Styx, which is to say she's part of the geography, not a person - the anthropomorphic embodiment of Sigil and the force directly or indirectly behind much of its weirdness.

The closest she's ever come to acting like a character was in Die Vecna Die, where she was a quest-giver, but only because Sigil needed a scalpel and she is the hammer. The runner up is probably when she kaboom'd Aoskar for pretending she was his avatar. In either case, a direct threat was presented to Sigil, and she replied by making the threat extremely dead as directly as was possible without harming the city further. Think of her as an immune system, if that helps.

[Eldan]

And it is indeed a veneer. A lof of the prominent fiends in Sigil are exceedingly brutal.

[afroakuma]

Does proximity to Sigil and the Spire induce neutrality in outsiders? Does this apply to other planes as well, so the Eladrin held in the Abyss would fall slowly to Evil and the prisoner in Elysium become slowly reformed?

No on all counts. Fiends in Sigil are just the ones who know how to behave themselves. At least temporarily. Ravel is an unrelated case as she became too fascinated by the riddles she was unraveling to care much about evil anymore.

Speaking of the Lady, since I have only a few video games previous to 3e as my older D&D exposure, where does she and Sigil come from?

There is no true answer, only endless speculation. Some think she's just a bunch of squirrels in a clever disguise. One source believes her to have ascended from a mystical people in a hidden valley. An attribution suggests she might be Poseidon's daughter. One story that I like, though I give it no credence whatsoever, is that in a timelost era, when two Serpents of Law fought for the supremacy of Good and Evil, a third Serpent interceded before their fight dismantled the multiverse. Wounded by her siblings, the third Serpent coiled about the axis of creation to lick her wounds, and the other two, contrite, bound themselves into an uneasy balance around her. Just as the two Serpents project more relatable incarnations in Heaven and Hell, so too does the Serpent of Neutrality, the hub around which the multiverse spins, hover above her own slumbering form as a silent and almighty shadow.

Also, iirc Boccob and Obai-Hai have their realms in the outlands, any reason she tolerates them or visa versa? I can see Boccob studying there, but Obai-Hai seems really out of place.

The Lady of Pain has nothing to do with the Outlands proper.

Heh. Ah, yes. Old edition god statblocks:

Now now, in fairness, gods are very rare, everything they do is always special, and you really shouldn't be able to harm one with a sword +1.

Also hey Eldan, good to see you again, how's Real Life Concordant Opposition?

The closest she's ever come to acting like a character was in Die Vecna Die

I dunno, Harbinger House is my favorite appearance of Her Serenity.

[Caelestion]

I liked her appearance in Faction War, where it turns out that she actually serves an integral part in the plot and isn't just window dressing.

[ksbsnowowl]

Ravel is an unrelated case as she became too fascinated by the riddles she was unraveling to care much about evil anymore.

So Ravel un-Raveled, and was not the old Ravel any longer?


Understanding Afro's distaste for the Pathfinder cosmology in general, is there any major issue (as in, will it screw with plots in Pathfinder AP's) to treating Golarion as just another Material Plane setting in the Great Wheel cosmology? I just started running the old Curse of the Crimson Throne AP in 3.5, and my plan is to just treat the world as another setting like Greyhawk or 2e Forgotten Realms, where it's just another world in the Spelljammer Material Plane cosmos. At least nothing in that AP seems to run counter to the Great Wheel's lore.

[Lord_Gareth]

So Ravel un-Raveled, and was not the old Ravel any longer?


Understanding Afro's distaste for the Pathfinder cosmology in general, is there any major issue (as in, will it screw with plots in Pathfinder AP's) to treating Golarion as just another Material Plane setting in the Great Wheel cosmology? I just started running the old Curse of the Crimson Throne AP in 3.5, and my plan is to just treat the world as another setting like Greyhawk or 2e Forgotten Realms, where it's just another world in the Spelljammer Material Plane cosmos. At least nothing in that AP seems to run counter to the Great Wheel's lore.

The biggest one is that Golarion characterizes several major figures extremely differently and has conflicting figures for identical slots (Queen of Succubi etc). More broadly, Golarion's treatment of alignment is very different from, and incomprehensibly worse than, most Planescape worlds, and its relationship to divinity is both of those things as well.

Honestly the place is kinda a garbage fire.

[Caelestion]

Incomprehensibly worse? That has to be hyperbole.

[Lord_Gareth]

Incomprehensibly worse? That has to be hyperbole.

You would think that, but somehow there's new awful things to find at every level of zoom. The incompetence, bad ideas, and low-grade malice has gone fractal.

[Caelestion]

So, you answered the charge of hyperbole with even more hyperbole and still managed to tell me nothing. Never mind.

[afroakuma]

So, you answered the charge of hyperbole with even more hyperbole and still managed to tell me nothing. Never mind.

Yeah, he does not like Golarion. I have never once bothered with it and never will. I defer any such questions to others.

[Efrate]

There is precedent for travelling between worlds ala spelljammer baked into Golarion, see the elves' hiatus before the aboleths dropped their moon and killed most the runelords and such. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to throw that into the great wheel, you stay on Golarion in most APs, so no weird planar stuff should make it ok. PF being designed to run with 3.5 content in mind helps as well. If you go full spelljammer I think it falls apart because of how the planes in Golarion are, but if you want to go to Toril or Oearth I don't think there is any reason you Can't. Nor is there any reason stuff from there cannot come to Golarion. Seeing how astral plane is still a thing.

[inuyasha]

I'm going to be starting up a new campaign soon and I've got a random question. Planescape has all kinds of real-world pantheons added in, one staple being the Greek pantheon. Is there any mention at all of the Roman interpretations of those deities within the setting?

[Tzardok]

I asked a similiar question on the first or second site of the thread. Look there first and then return if something is unclear.

[afroakuma]

I'm going to be starting up a new campaign soon and I've got a random question. Planescape has all kinds of real-world pantheons added in, one staple being the Greek pantheon. Is there any mention at all of the Roman interpretations of those deities within the setting?

I've added some sources since last time, and the answer is... still largely what it was previously. The Roman pantheon, with a few exceptions, is largely the Olympian pantheon plus a couple of intruders in the form of mystery cults. It is noted that the Roman interpretation of Olympian gods tends toward Law over Chaos - this owes a lot to the statism of religion in Rome. Followers of the Roman gods are mainly going to be those who venerate the pantheon, penates, and lares over a given individual deity.

Planescape hasn't spoken meaningfully to it, but one could posit that the Olympians may have a "receiving realm" or three for those who followed the gods or were faithful to the pantheon, but whose lives and beliefs would not bring them in line with the nature of the members of the pantheon themselves due to law/chaos separation - such realms would lie chiefly in Arcadia for urban and palatial types, Bytopia for pastoral and rural types, and a little bit in Celestia. Might make for an interesting bit of unique pantheonic metaphysics (compare the Indian pantheon and their relationship with reincarnation). Hope that gives you an amusing starting point.

[Tzardok]

Hmm, if one could combine that with that one fan-made planar pathway, the Via Romana...

Maybe those receiving realms are connected to or identical with the Caesar's Villas at the ends of said pathway. Then we would have one in Dis and one in Mercuria.

[Tryxx]

Now I'm starting to wonder if it's afrocannon that the reason Janus doesn't have an Olympian equivilent is because he's out chilling with Aoskar...

[Fable Wright]

So, the Hinterlands.

A Player's Primer to the Outlands mentions that, within its depths, gates to unknown planes, lost cities, and far more can be found.

What might the unknown planes be? Things beyond the Wheel? Inner/demiplanes? Or are there full-on planes disconnected from the Wheel, save for the Outlands?

The lost cities are formed of belief, of course, but whose belief? Memories of destroyed civilizations? Towns dreamed up by children? If valuable items were to be found in the cities, what might they be?

It's mentioned that going through the Hinterlands can bring one to alternate realities. Would this process be similar to going through the Deep Shadow? Was this property somehow usurped by the Shadow when it spilled from the Ethereal?

Does the nature of the Hinterlands change depending on what the nearby Gate-Towns are? How might these changes manifest, if any?

Finally, aside from supply line issues and inconsistent distances, what dangers might one encounter in the Hinterlands?

[Caelestion]

As I recall, the Deep Ethereal is the home of the dreamscapes, including one explicitly dreamed up by a child.

[Yael]

I'm planning on throwing my PCs into a planar adventure, they do have tools for planar attunement and are fairly equipped, but the party is ECL 6.5, so I'm considering what plane could I throw them into (Oerth cosmology).

Any suggestions for low-level friendly planes where I can send a low-to-mid level party to adventure as a side quest? Thx~!

[inuyasha]

Oh gosh, whoops. I should have looked at earlier replies on that topic, hah.

Thank you though!

[Fable Wright]

I'm planning on throwing my PCs into a planar adventure, they do have tools for planar attunement and are fairly equipped, but the party is ECL 6.5, so I'm considering what plane could I throw them into (Oerth cosmology).

Any suggestions for low-level friendly planes where I can send a low-to-mid level party to adventure as a side quest? Thx~!

The Beastlands seem full of appropriate low to mid level encounters in the form of beasts, with a hefty dose of planar weirdness ensuing when you slay one of the beasts.

Ysgard takes tension out of battles, so you can pit them against Einherjar or some pretty high level gatekeeper enemy that just wants a good fight. When they manage to kill him, they can pass.

Sigil has stuff for characters of every level.

If the planar attunement stuff lets them survive Limbo's lethal environs, then slaadi are probably manageable encounters, and Githzerai Monastaries could be a neat destination.

You could also go to the Outlands, aiming for a Gate Town to get planar bleed and outsiders without dealing with the infinite demons of the Abyss. Expedition to the Demonweb Pits indicates that Graz'zt's planar layers, probably the "safest" places in the Abyss with a Merchant's Pass, is best reserved for levels 10-11 at the early side.

Speaking of that adventure, I remember some early encounters with Ratatoskr and the Yggdrasil that could be pretty nice set pieces, provided perhaps a bit of scaling down.

[Eldan]

Many planes also have cities that are safe to more casual visitors. If you send them to limbo, don't drop them in the soup, send them to a Gith city. On the plane of fire, the City of Brass. And so on.

[afroakuma]

Now I'm starting to wonder if it's afrocannon that the reason Janus doesn't have an Olympian equivilent is because he's out chilling with Aoskar...

Nyet.

So, the Hinterlands.

A Player's Primer to the Outlands mentions that, within its depths, gates to unknown planes, lost cities, and far more can be found.

Well, it mentions people telling tales of such things, anyway.

What might the unknown planes be? Things beyond the Wheel? Inner/demiplanes? Or are there full-on planes disconnected from the Wheel, save for the Outlands?

Who knows? "Outer-er" planes, strange bubble realms like the Seelie Court, totally unique planar phenomena, echoes of things from alternate realities...

The lost cities are formed of belief, of course, but whose belief? Memories of destroyed civilizations? Towns dreamed up by children? If valuable items were to be found in the cities, what might they be?

I'm starting to wonder if this is more rhetorical discussion-generating than actual line of questioning.

It's mentioned that going through the Hinterlands can bring one to alternate realities.

Possibly. Who knows?

Would this process be similar to going through the Deep Shadow?

Similar in some fashions, one would expect. Distinctive in others.

Was this property somehow usurped by the Shadow when it spilled from the Ethereal?

Nyet. Shadow has always misbehaved when it comes to being a transitory realm.

Does the nature of the Hinterlands change depending on what the nearby Gate-Towns are?

It might very slightly, but I would expect it to drop off substantially once you get meaningfully past them.

How might these changes manifest, if any?

Oh, same as they do spireward, I'd imagine. It's more about proximity to the gate than being on a tranche, as it were.

Finally, aside from supply line issues and inconsistent distances, what dangers might one encounter in the Hinterlands?

Going crazy would be one. Magic behaving in odd ways, loss of contact with deities is a possibility, unique phenomena for which there is insufficient context to approach reliably, the kinds of truly bizarre planar beings that consistently exist in such a place... anything could be out there.

I'm planning on throwing my PCs into a planar adventure, they do have tools for planar attunement and are fairly equipped, but the party is ECL 6.5, so I'm considering what plane could I throw them into (Oerth cosmology).

Any suggestions for low-level friendly planes where I can send a low-to-mid level party to adventure as a side quest? Thx~!

I mean, any plane is basically copacetic for that if you have planar attunement. The key is more to provide them fewer opportunities to run amok and get horribly murdered - keep them within a certain relative area. A couple of Oeridian adventure ideas to give you an idea:

• Two centuries ago, the Battle Standard of Deld was carried into a fierce melee between knights in service to Heironeous and ravagers of Hextor. Though a champion of Hextor managed to steal away the Standard and offer it upon his dark god's altar, the knights broke the lines of the evil warriors, and Hextor toppled his temple into Acheron rather than allow it to stand as a site of one of his great defeats. The rift to Acheron is still accessible, and now the heirs of Deld seek to have their mighty banner restored - but although Hextor has abandoned the broken temple, the creatures of Avalas have found uses for it...

Spoiler: Encounter Options

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• Fiendish goblin fighters patrol this barren cube, looking for recruits to force into service in Maglubiyet's endless war against Gruumsh. (4 2nd level fiendish goblin fighters = CR 6 Encounter)
• An achaierai stalks the jagged metal cliffs, searching for its next meal (1 achaierai = CR 6 encounter)
• A pair of maugs have been drawn to the ruined temple by the history of battle around it. They await new opportunities to go forth to war and can be negotiated with to allow passage (2 maugs = CR 5 encounter)
• Steel predator cubs lurk within the ruined passages, gnawing on discarded armor (3 fiendish leopards with ad hoc immunity to electric and sonic damage, deaf special quality, sound burst as spell-like ability once every 1d4 rounds, +2 natural armor = CR 6 encounter).
• A belker was trapped within the temple when Hextor hurled it away. Showing it the rift to the Prime Material earns its cooperation but is a morally grey act (1 belker = CR 6 encounter)
• A trio of minor xorns have been chewing their way happily through the cube. They're less aggressive than normal as there is a wealth of metal to eat, but the local predators stress them out and they may lash out in uncertainty (3 minor xorns = CR 6 encounter)
• A clutch of ghouls and a ghast are all that remains of the servants of Hextor who were cast down into Acheron and trapped in the ruins. They linger in the depths of the temple, hoping for more fresh prey (1 ghast and 8 ghouls = CR 7 encounter)
• A pair of fiendish gargoyles guarded the inner sanctum and have hibernated since (2 fiendish gargoyles = CR 7 encounter)
• The juvenile rust dragon Kr'xaxchrix has determined that the temple ruin shall be its lair. It has food aplenty, the lone cube is devoid of rivals, and it plots to recruit minions beyond the temple's boundaries at its leisure (1 juvenile rust dragon = CR 8 encounter)
• Still guarding his trophy in the altar room is the abandoned ex-champion of Hextor, Jurax. Forsaken by his god, mere cubes from Hextor's own divine realm, Jurax died mad and murderous, slaying his men in an attempt to draw Hextor's eye but instead earning the favor only of Erythnul. Jurax and the men he killed are now undead, certain that the banner is Hextor's prize and their vindication - though Jurax is bitter enough to trade it for freedom to the Prime, an evil act. Jurax is encountered with four ghouls and possesses the spellcasting abilities of a 5th-level cleric of Erythnul with the War and Destruction domains. (1 mohrg with ad hoc cleric abilities and 4 ghouls = CR 9 encounter)

• A well-liked merchant was tricked into a horrid contract by a baatezu, one which is being ruthlessly enforced by a powerful kolyarut. A solution may exist - even an inevitable may be deceived by the light of a candle stolen from the Castle of Ugly Truths, realm of the deceitful goddess Syrul. The wicked goddess is hardly inclined to do favors, though thieving from her realm would actually be an act highly favored by her as it would require guile, lies, and stealth...

Spoiler: Encounter Options

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• A young pyroclastic dragon tries to assert its dominion over its limited territory (1 young pyroclastic dragon = CR 6)
• A trio of barghests attempt to ambush travelers. They can be driven off by threats of more dangerous predators (3 barghests = CR 7)
• A fiendish harpy takes a pass at the party. It can be bribed with food or gold to provide directions to the Castle (1 fiendish harpy = CR 5)
• An immature phiuhl (treat as belker with an additional 1d4 points of fire damage on natural attacks, acid immunity, and fire immunity) lurks in the cindery crevasse, hunting for prey (1 immature phiuhl = CR 6)
• A trio of fiendish ankhegs lurk beneath a suspiciously level plain (3 fiendish ankhegs = CR 7)
• Syrul's nightmares run wild across the Castle's blasted courtyards (1 nightmare = CR 5)
• A vaporighu preys on anything that wanders by and has only recently devoured a nightmare. It is very dangerous and should be avoided if possible (1 vaporighu = CR 9)
• A pair of araneas disguised in humanoid form as priests of Syrul welcome travelers at the gatehouse. They plot to devour travelers but can be negotiated with and are actually intended to admit the occasional prevaricator (2 araneas = CR 6)
• A barbazu was dispatched to observe anyone who might attempt to break the contract (1 barbazu = CR 5)
• The hounds at the gates are pairs of canoloths (2 canoloths = CR 7)
• Every wooden surface in Syrul's Castle of Ugly Truths is a fiendish mimic. Literally all of them (1 fiendish mimic = CR 5)
• Magmatic pools in Syrul's Castle are magma mephits (2 magma mephits = CR 5)
• Shadows congregate in the flickering light of the Castle. Some are shadows of the visitors, come alive to threaten them (4 shadows = ad hoc CR 8)
• Syrul posts solitary guards throughout her castle, typically mezzoloths - and they can be bribed to look the other way, which is what she was going for all along (1 mezzoloth = CR 6)

[Fable Wright]

I'm starting to wonder if this is more rhetorical discussion-generating than actual line of questioning.

I'd like to run a high-weirdness wilderness exploration hexcrawl as part of some upcoming sessions.

The Hinterlands have basically no material on them, but seem like they could fit the bill better than most places, and have a very good reason for being unexplored at... well, any given point in history. Also a great way to introduce my group to Planescape.

I've got a few encounters and places I'd like to have in mind, but it's not quite enough for a fleshed out adventure. So I'm aiming to figure out some form of internal logic to generate places, planars, and events disconnected from the main adventure seed. In lieu of more splatterboard questions to get a sense of how things work there, do you have any recommendations to bring the Hinterlands to life?

[afroakuma]

I've got a few encounters and places I'd like to have in mind, but it's not quite enough for a fleshed out adventure. So I'm aiming to figure out some form of internal logic to generate places, planars, and events disconnected from the main adventure seed. In lieu of more splatterboard questions to get a sense of how things work there, do you have any recommendations to bring the Hinterlands to life?

I mean, "internal logic" is a spotty notion where the Hinterlands are concerned. By definition, they don't like to behave themselves.

What one might find out there would be immensely unorthodox. A vale where the air contains "mirror-ness." A lost city that attracts to itself things that are lost - not just lost items, but lost hopes, lost causes, lost battles. A team of belief-wranglers astride frogspider steeds, trying to lasso the thoughts and faiths of the multiverse that refuse to sort or settle according to the Wheel's dictates. A lake of extradimensional water and the fish that swim above, around, and perpendicular to it. The concept of "red." Choices untaken, crystallized into trees. An immense and crumbling statue of a pointing hand, which cannot be approached without the mover being teleported back a half-mile. A metallic sphere around which the ground seems to bend, but gravity lets you keep going. A place that is "sight." That's just off the cuff. I'm not saying any of that is there, or isn't, or should be, or shouldn't - it just could be.

[Tzardok]

If one of Eberron's Rakshasa-Rajahs would manage to leave Eberron and enter the Great Wheel, how would it compare (in power, nature etc.) to demon lords, archdevils or other planar big players?

What is your opinion on Eberron's deities? Are they non-existent, and their clerics gain power just through belief? Do they exist, but are hidden? Or do they have a normal presence in the Great Wheel?

[afroakuma]

If one of Eberron's Rakshasa-Rajahs

No.

What is your opinion on Eberron

I deeply hate it.

's deities? Are they non-existent, and their clerics gain power just through belief? Do they exist, but are hidden? Or do they have a normal presence in the Great Wheel?

For my part, I leaned toward "the ones which are indistinct are actually gods from other settings, as filtered through Eberron." That said, I very much hate Eberron.

[Fable Wright]

If one of Eberron's Rakshasa-Rajahs would manage to leave Eberron and enter the Great Wheel, how would it compare (in power, nature etc.) to demon lords, archdevils or other planar big players?

I am not afroakuma. But Rajah are not comparable to planar rulers any more than the Lady of Pain is. The CR ~30 stat blocks they have that respawn every day are for a partial release. That is pretty comparable to a planar ruler who has zero fear of getting offed, and a small fraction of a full release.

They are Fiat Made Manifest, and more akin to a force of nature than a player in schemes of others, baring a few specific cases like Bel Shalor who build sandcastles to tear them down as part of their nature.

They're closer to Elder Evils done right, that don't have a wimpy, killable Outsider form. Resemblances to planar rulers are superficial at best.