afroakuma's Planar And Other Oddities Questions Thread VII

[afroakuma]

Geryon is a Greek giant, not anything Goetic. On that subject, I strongly suggest we steer clear of original real-world sources for fiends and the like.

Now for something fun that I worked on some time ago: my take on the Dawn Cataclysm.

Spoiler

Show

• The Dawn Cataclysm was a period of Faerûnian history that took place over a few hundred years, beginning around, loosely, -350 DR.

• The root causes of the Dawn Cataclysm are numerous, but the most predominant are three:
• The ascension of the Dark Three through the machinations of the Netherese deity Jergal.
• The fall of Netheril through the folly of Karsus.
• The emergence of Lathander, called Morninglord, a power of renewal.

• Whether Lathander emerged from the death of Amaunator, the Netherese sun god, or was present before in a different pantheon (the Talfiric, perhaps) and coexisted, is ultimately difficult to say. One prominent theory held that Lathander, Amaunator, and Jergal represented the dawn, the midday, and the dusk, and that only two of the three could hold sway at any one time. If this is true, then the emergence of Lathander at the same time that Amaunator fell and Jergal voluntarily diminished himself may have disrupted the cycle and the balance of three.

• The Dark Three were active during the time of Netheril, and likely began to forge their cults and churches in the strife and death of the fall. This surge in prominence of three new faces of evil was a cause for alarm among the powers of Good, as the Dark Three lacked for subtlety, hungering to set upon the world as its new rulers.

• Lathander viewed the fractious pantheons of Faerûn as stagnant and sedentary, unable to respond to the evils of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul. He urged his followers to spread forth from their lands, making contact with the followers of deities from other pantheons. Lathander attempted to convince these gods that they needed to change, or they would fall under others who were more adaptable. He exhorted them to follow his example - and to follow him, as the leader of a united pantheon of goodly and rational deities against the upjumped mortals now threatening to bring the world to heel.

• Some deities were eager to join him, concerned about the strength of evil. Others were resistant to uniting with other pantheons, concerned that their portfolios would be at risk. Some were actively encouraged by the concept of predating on deities from other pantheons in order to seize more power for themselves.

• These divisions happened not between individual pantheons, but within them. The god Auppenser was supreme among the Jhaamdathan pantheon, and would not hear of kneeling to the Morninglord, concerned as he was about protecting the psions of his land. Factionalism among the gods caused division in the Jhaamdathan pantheon, resulting in a coup in Jhaamdath that installed a vicious warmonger in place of the old rulers.

• With the gods of war eagerly unleashed upon one another, the gods of storm and fury came forth to bring havoc. Lathander's crusade had transgressed the traditional boundaries of the pantheons, and the fragile peace shattered as gods of all stripes struggled to cement their roles in the free-for-all.

• When the dust cleared, it became evident that whatever Lathander's actual goals, he had missed the forest for the trees - the most ancient evil of Toril, Shar, had undermined his efforts from the very beginning, using the kinds of foe he would immediately perceive as the greatest threat (new gods, young and active, like himself) as a diversion while she helped strengthen other forces of darkness. A dreadful ocean goddess, Umberlee, was summoned by elves into the Sea of Fallen Stars, where she seized and drowned the last defender of Jhaamdath, the reason goddess Murdane, capturing the inland sea within her portfolio and establishing herself as the predominant deity of all the waters. The foul demiurge Moander deceived and corrupted Tyche, goddess of fate, forcing Shar's rival Selûne to salvage a lesser goddess of good fortune from the putrefying essence of her friend while unleashing a cruel goddess of misfortune upon the Realms. The battles of gods with similar portfolios had greatly empowered forces such as destruction and war, seating Tempus and Talos as greater gods with wider sway over the Realms.

• The ultimate outcome of the Dawn Cataclysm was a united Faerûnian pantheon, with many gods much greater in scope than they had been previously. Lathander obviously did not get to renew the world entire without the stain of darkness, nor did he become leader of the united pantheon or otherwise achieve his aims.

Bear in mind this has traditionally been a big sucking empty gap zone in Faerûnian history and this is wholly loose inference on my part.

[Venger]

If a group of non-native mortals wanted to rent a plot of land to live and farm crops on, what part of baator should they do it in? (place where there's devils who will draw you up a lease, a layer which isn't fire hell or ice hell, etc.) What kind of precautions should they take to protect their crops?

[Yanagi]

Err, unless the name has been changed fairly significantly, I believe this is incorrect. In fact, he does not appear in any of the sources I mentioned, at least according to Wikipedia. Several other demon and devil lords are from those sources, but not (as far as I can tell) Geryon.

Geryon is a giant in Greek myths.

He's probably sorted among the devils because he appears in Dante's Inferno.

[enderlord99]

If a group of non-native mortals wanted to rent a plot of land to live and farm crops on, what part of baator should they do it in?

None. If non-native mortals want to rent a plot of land to live and farm crops on, they should not do it in Baator.

Come to think of it, they shouldn't do it on any Lower Plane.

Outer Planes in general are iffy.

Unless you specifically meant they want to do it on Baator, rather than just that they want to do it and you assumed they should do so on Baator...

In that case: why would anyone want to live in Baator? It's literally hell!

[Venger]

None. If non-native mortals want to rent a plot of land to live and farm crops on, they should not do it in Baator.

Come to think of it, they shouldn't do it on any Lower Plane.

Outer Planes in general are iffy.

Unless you specifically meant they want to do it on Baator, rather than just that they want to do it and you assumed they should do so on Baator...

In that case: why would anyone want to live in Baator? It's literally hell!

Yes, that's what I meant, which is why I said Baator. They are a cabal of evil druids where one is a planar shepherd attuned to Baator. Due to her plane shift ability, I thought they could set up a small secondary base someplace there and grow some devilweed. Since devils are lawful, I thought it would be funny if they found a rent-seeking one and signed a contract with her in the form of a lease. I know mechanically, plants don't need any specific conditions to grow, but I wanted something that wasn't fire hell or ice hell to fit fluffwise as being someplace you can grow crops.

Manual of the planes says some mortals live there, so you must be able to grow plants somehow, since the people who wrote the books don't know everyone subsists on create food and water traps. I'm just curious what layer (and place within it if necessary) would be best for accomplishing this goal.

[Khedrac]

A thought popped out of nowhere this lunchtime...

The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd - do weyou know any more about Arnd than is listed in the various artifact entries?

[Caelestion]

Based purely off his name, I wouldn't be surprised if Arnd was one of Dave Arneson's characters.

[Eldan]

That would fit, yeah. Along the lines of Zagyg and similar names.

As for farming in hell, the first question would probably be which place is actually fertile without significant magical investment, like the domain of a god. Dispater rents out parts of the Iron City to various gods and organisations, for example, but the place sounds rather infertile.

I'd imagine on general principle, secrecy and difficulty of access increases the deeper you go. So, I'd stay away from any of the deeper layers on principle. Though on Avernus,you risk being stomped on by attacking demons, too...

[Venger]

That would fit, yeah. Along the lines of Zagyg and similar names.

As for farming in hell, the first question would probably be which place is actually fertile without significant magical investment, like the domain of a god. Dispater rents out parts of the Iron City to various gods and organisations, for example, but the place sounds rather infertile.

I'd imagine on general principle, secrecy and difficulty of access increases the deeper you go. So, I'd stay away from any of the deeper layers on principle. Though on Avernus,you risk being stomped on by attacking demons, too...

Yeah, that was the question. Sounds like that rules out dispater and avernus. wasn't there one part full of trees made of hair? hair's good fertilizer, that'd probably be a good place to grow stuff. or was that the abyss?

[Lapak]

Yeah, that was the question. Sounds like that rules out dispater and avernus. wasn't there one part full of trees made of hair? hair's good fertilizer, that'd probably be a good place to grow stuff. or was that the abyss?

You know, since outlying farms are a traditional part of city realms I can totally see Dispater maintaining a weird little token/symbolic region of Dis that is a weird combination of inside and outside the city.

Probably ironically bucolic and bizarrely fruitful, and basically no one is allowed to go there unless they are part of the 'farm.'

[Efrate]

The hair layer is the 7th or 8th I forget, now ruled by Asmodeaus's daughter, but the hair is of a ancient hag he had killed who then infects stuff and who used to be the ruler of said layer. FC 2 gives the details.

Dis kind of makes sense as a mimicry of a traditional city.

[Venger]

Sounds good. Outskirts of dispater it is.

[Caelestion]

The hair layer is the 7th or 8th I forget, now ruled by Asmodeaus's daughter, but the hair is of a ancient hag he had killed who then infects stuff and who used to be the ruler of said layer. FC 2 gives the details.

That's Malbolge, the sixth layer. Maladomini is the seventh, ruled by Baalzebul, Lord of the Flies, and Cania is the eight layer, ruled by Mephistopheles himself.

[gkathellar]

Speaking of the Hag Countess, how did she end up as ruler of the sixth before Glasya? Given she was a non-exemplar, I imagine there must have been some odd circumstances.

[Tzardok]

Speaking of the Hag Countess, how did she end up as ruler of the sixth before Glasya? Given she was a non-exemplar, I imagine there must have been some odd circumstances.

Before the Reckoning, Malbolge was under the control of Baron Moloch, a vasal of Baalzebul. The Hag Countess was Moloch's mistress and sold the rebellion out to Asmodeus. For that she was rewarded with unknowingly keeping the throne warm for Glasya until negotiations between her and daddy were finished.

[crystal_entity]

Finally, I've just caught up with all seven threads... Thanks for the answers to my previous question, I've got a new one now!

My question is whether there's a unified timeline for the main worlds on the Prime Material plane? For example, what is happening on Toril when the War of the Lance is happening on Krynn? Or what's happening on Krynn during the Time of Troubles on Toril? Both settings have a fairly detailed timeline, but is there any way to link the two? And for that matter, does Planescape have a timeline (each adventure seems fairly self-contained, except Faction War which is a gross change to the setting)?

Thanks!

[afroakuma]

A thought popped out of nowhere this lunchtime...

The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd - do weyou know any more about Arnd than is listed in the various artifact entries?

Arnd of Tdon was a priest of Heironeous who founded the first paladin order dedicated to the Valorous Knight among the Oeridians in the time before the Great Migrations. A humble and charitable soul, he did not craft the invulnerable coat - rather he agreed to wear it on behalf of its creators while journeying in their lands in order to challenge their oppressor, the evil wizard Virtos.

Also, Arnd was not named after Dave Arneson, but rather after one of Gygax's players, Don Arndt.

Speaking of the Hag Countess, how did she end up as ruler of the sixth before Glasya? Given she was a non-exemplar, I imagine there must have been some odd circumstances.

Malagard was a consort and advisor to Moloch, Baalzebul's viceroy, who ruled Malbolge during the era prior to the Reckoning. Counseling the Viceroy to join the wars against Asmodeus, she set him up to be betrayed and deposed and was rewarded with control of the layer as Baalzebul was punished by losing influence over it. Her reign was intended by Asmodeus to serve as a distraction, as devils grumbling about a night hag being given one of the Nine Hells to rule over would not know how to jockey for power in her realm and would likely welcome Glasya when the Princess of Hell was appointed to replace Malagard.

My question is whether there's a unified timeline for the main worlds on the Prime Material plane? For example, what is happening on Toril when the War of the Lance is happening on Krynn? Or what's happening on Krynn during the Time of Troubles on Toril? Both settings have a fairly detailed timeline, but is there any way to link the two?

There is, and we call it Spelljammer.

The folks over at Spelljammer.org did a substantial essay on the subject. Tl;dr the Time of Troubles was about three years after the War of the Lance, and the calendars are believed to line up as 1361 DR = 581 CY = 358 AC. As an interesting note, this means that depending on how rigorously they line up (if they're off by some months, for instance), the Cataclysm on Krynn might have occurred during what on Toril would have been recorded as the Year of the Heavenly Rock.

And for that matter, does Planescape have a timeline (each adventure seems fairly self-contained, except Faction War which is a gross change to the setting)?

We have a rough sense of where the later ones fall with respect to one another, but that's about it. It should be feasible to loosely peg Dead Gods to the Prime calendar, since in 3E Orcus is back and we know what year 3E started in the Forgotten Realms. Similarly, Die Vecna Die should be loosely determinable. Not gonna bother with going into gray areas like that though.

[Dalmosh]

Do Petitioners in Divine Realms tend to retain more of their original identities than Petitioners that generically appear on Outer Planes?

What would be some notable examples of deities that grant afterlives that
1. Explicitly let you remain "you", without losing your memories or sense of self.
2. Offer potential for the worthy to advance into more powerful and influential forms than just being basic 2HD Petitioners.

[Cirrylius]

As for farming in hell, the first question would probably be which place is actually fertile without significant magical investment, like the domain of a god. Dispater rents out parts of the Iron City to various gods and organisations, for example, but the place sounds rather infertile.

Well, Dis is crazy hot, located in a swamp, and probably has an industrial undercity on par with any other planar metropolis- bring in a few cartload slave-trains of generic infernal mud and organic filth, open up a couple of deep sluice gates, and you've got yourself a thriving mycoprotein farm to help keep the rest of the chattel fed.

Even if it's too lowbrow for THESE settlers, it'd serve as a great cautionary example of how much worse things could get if they're not exquisitely careful.

[Tzardok]

Wasn't Minauros the swampy hell and not Dis?

[enderlord99]

Wasn't Minauros the swampy hell and not Dis?

That's like saying "Wasn't Cania the cold hell and not Stygia?" because they both are.

Dis is swampy outside the city. to the extent that there is an "outside the city."

Mainauros is swampy everywhere.

[Tzardok]

That's like saying "Wasn't Cania the cold hell and not Stygia?" because they both are.

Dis is swampy outside the city. to the extent that there is an "outside the city."

Mainauros is swampy everywhere.

It's just that I distinctly remember Dis' outskirts to be dry and mountainous. If I had FC2 with me, I would look it up.

[Dalmosh]

Where is Dis referred to as a swamp? I thought it was a fairly bland empty wasteland ringed by mountains with spiky outcrops of iron coming out of it, and I seem to remember these outcrops being described as the closest thing to nature the Layer had.

[ff7hero]

I'm still slowly catching up with these threads (on number 5 atm, it's great stuff), but I recently made a connection I thought might be worth passing on.
Have you found an untainted artist to do that Slaad/Modron/Rilmani art?

[afroakuma]

I'm still slowly catching up with these threads (on number 5 atm, it's great stuff), but I recently made a connection I thought might be worth passing on.
Have you found an untainted artist to do that Slaad/Modron/Rilmani art?

Not yet. I hope to at some point. It would be quite fun.

[Bartmanhomer]

Hey, afroakuma. I have a question which I ask on another thread. Have the Red Dragon Deity Garyx always been insane or mentally unstable? If so how did his madness all started anyway?

[Asmotherion]

Here's a question i've been trying to figure out some time now.

What are the Limitations on Plane Shift/Gate? Can they transend Crystal Spheres (provided you have information about an other Planar Cosmology)? Or would that be more in the Wavelenghth of an Epic Spell to emulate?

Any pice of lore that suggests either would be greatly appreciated.

[Tzardok]

Here's a question i've been trying to figure out some time now.

What are the Limitations on Plane Shift/Gate? Can they transend Crystal Spheres (provided you have information about an other Planar Cosmology)? Or would that be more in the Wavelenghth of an Epic Spell to emulate?

Any pice of lore that suggests either would be greatly appreciated.

You seem to have conflated two different concepts with each other. A crystal sphere is in Planescape a sphere holding a minature universe: a world, sun(s), moon(s), planets and maybe a few other things. All crystal spheres together and the phlogiston between them make up the Prime Material Plane in the Great Wheel. Most of the official settings take place on some kind of world in a crystal sphere. A different planar cosmology is, well, completely different; it's somewhere out there and shouldn't interact with the Great Wheel under normal circumstances.

Now to the question itself: Planeshift exists to travel other planes. The crystal spheres on the other hand are all on the same plane. Besides that the phlogiston blocks all kinds of planar travel. If you want to use planeshift from sphere to sphere, you would need to make a detour over another plane. Technically you could teleport from sphere to sphere, as teleport utilizes the Astral Plane as medium to travel somewhere else on the same plane, but practically the phlogiston interferes with aiming, which makes the teleport... not impossible, but very difficult. If Gate utilizes the Astral and can be used as a teleport, it should have similiar problems. Otherwise it just won't work.

Reaching a different cosmology requires some kind of medium, which must be traveled. The only known medium is the Plane of Shadows. One could create theoretically an epic spell that utilizes this or another connection or traverses the Vast Medium (Afro's name for the void between cosmologies) in some other way. Back in the sixth thread, we brainstormed names for this theoretical spell. If you are interested, search for "cosmoshift"; that's where the discussion started.

[Venger]

Once you get souls (through faustian pacts, etc) how do you physically incarnate them so you can sell them, trade them, use them as spell components, etc. Soul bind lets you store them in gems so you can carry them around. Are there other ways to do this? I know night hags trade in souls, which is why they hang out in baator. how do they carry them around?

[Efrate]

Besides soul gems, most souls as currency are in the form of larvae, which are kind of like little blobs iirc. Fc1 or FC2 goes over it. They are kind of creature like so just shove them in a sack of your choosing I would guess. Really plays up their value as essentially trade commodities.