Shivering Tornado of Death - Arcane Channeling optimization

[Gruftzwerg]

Duskblade 13 / Recaster 5 / Bloodstorm Blade 2

The idea to the build was born while I was working on my Hammerdin of Moradin build and still inherits some of the fluff that is related to Hammerdin build from the game Diablo (2/3) but ain't restricted to hammers thrown.

Spoiler: the build

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1) Duskblade - Dodge, Combat Expertise*, Mobility*
2) Duskblade
3) Duskblade - Empower Spell
4) Duskblade
5) Duskblade
6) Duskblade - Spring Attack
7) Duskblade
8) Duskblade
9) Duskblade - Whirlwind
10) Duskblade
11) Duskblade
12) Duskblade - Maximize Spell
13) Duskblade
14) Recaster
15) Recaster - Martial Study (Steel Wind); Expanded Knowledge (Shivering Touch)
16) Recaster
17) Recaster - Expanded Knowledge (Heroics)
18) Recaster - Martial Stance (Punishing Stance or Absolute Steel)
19) Bloodstorm Blade
20) Bloodstorm Blade
* Feats from Flaws

As a thought-lesson I had the urge to make a build who is focused on the Arcane Channeling ability of the duskblade class.

The most recommend spell (as guides already suggest) seems to be Shivering Touch which we need to get via Recaster (since it ain't a duskblade spell).

To add more awesomeness we add Bloodstorm Blade 2 to get Trow Anything, the Returning ability and Thunderous Throw which lets our ranged attacks count as melee again. If we add Whirlwind Attack on top of it, we have finished the "Shivering Tornado of Death".

And don't forget to empower+maximize via Recaster for maximum fun.
27 23.25 Dex dmg (average 18 + 3d6/2) to everything in range of your Trow Anything + Thunderous Throw + Whirlwind Attack (range increment of 10ft x5 = 50ft range / with Far Shot active up to 100ft!; -2 to hit for each increment above 10ft).

FUN FACT: It gets even more silly when you think about the fact that the "Shivering Tornado of Death" can distinguish between friend or foe thx due to Whirlwind Attack only targeting your opponents in reach! Muhahaha ah ha

The 2nd spell Recaster can add to the list ain't set in stone, but I guess the most useful one would be "Alter Self" imho. Cause I don't think the we need more offensive power in this build I would suggest to go for utility or defense for the 2nd spell and Alter Self fits good even at that high lvls if you don't have any other options (e.g. polymorph form party caster) to get a more favorable combat shape.
Did a lil mistake in the build (Point Blank Shot missing for Bloodstorm Blade). I need to set the 2nd spell from Expanded Knowledge to "Heroics". Before entering Bloodstorm Blade, you need to cast it and give you Point Blank Shot. Once you entered the PrC you don't need to bother anymore with PBS and can use it for Far Shot to double your range (up to 100ft!) or something else you want or just ignore the spell.

As always I hope for some feedback and response^^
Any suggestions for the 2nd spell added via Recaster?

EDIT/UPDATE on epic progression:


> Far Shot
> Point Blank Shot (just needed as prerequisite for..)
> Distant Shot

With "Distant Shot", the build can hit anything it can see/spot without any penalty at all.

"There shall stand no enemy in my sight! Crumble and shiver to death!"

EDIT/UPADTE 2 on magic weapon enchantments:

+ 5 Keen Falcion (or any other weapon with 18-20 crit and crit enchantment on it)

Since Ability damage can crit for double dmg (in our chase 54 46.5 Dex dmg average!), we need a weapon with max crit range and crit enchantment on it.

EDIT/UPDATE 3 due to missing Point Blank Shot prerequisite for Bloodstorm Blade. Used the 2nd Expanded Knowledge Spell to compensate it.

EDIT/UPDATE 4 changed the 2nd Expanded Knowledge Spell again from "Mirror Move" to "Heroics". Lesser problem to enter BSB and more useful later. (e.g double your range with Far Shot)

EDIT/UPDATE 5 rearranged feats. did miss +4BAB requirement for SA and needed to delay it to lvl 6.

[heavyfuel]

Except "Thunderous Throw" doesn't increase your reach, it just let's your ranged attacks count as melee. Ranged attacks don't have "reach", they only have, they have a "ranged increment"

[Gruftzwerg]

Except "Thunderous Throw" doesn't increase your reach, it just let's your ranged attacks count as melee. Ranged attacks don't have "reach", they only have, they have a "ranged increment"

you combine the "Trow Anything" ability with "Thunderous Throw". Now your melee weapon has a range increment of 10ft. and thus you can make use of thunderous throw which allows you to apply Whirlwind Attack.

edit to further clarify:

Beginning at 2nd level, you build up incredible tension as you ready yourself to throw your weapon, which becomes visible around you like heat waves. When you release your weapon, that power rushes out with your weapon. As a swift action, you can choose to treat your ranged attack rolls with thrown weapons as melee attacks for the rest of your turn. You use your melee attack bonus, including Strength bonus, feats, and so forth, to determine your attack bonus for each attack as normal, but you apply the standard modifiers for range penalties. Attacking into melee, through cover, and so forth incurs the standard penalties. In addition, you can apply 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus to damage if you wield the thrown weapon with two hands, and you can use Power Attack with your thrown weapon attacks (adding two times the number subtracted from attack rolls as a bonus on damage rolls when throwing a two-handed weapon).

Since the ability calls range penalties, you can still attack at range and aren't forced to attack in melee range.

Further IIRC "reach" ain't a defined keyword/term and just implies how far your weapon can attack. "Reach Weapon" is a defined term, but that is not the case here. "Reach" is only defined by your weapons attack range (in this chase 10ft range increment which results in a max. attack range of 50ft.).

[EndocrineBandit]

Can't you take far shot or something to increase your range?

[Gruftzwerg]

Can't you take far shot or something to increase your range?

no room for more feats sadly. Unless you can get it via magic item or you can save it for epic lvls.

[EndocrineBandit]

That's my bad I thought duskblade gave you sudden quicken. Upon investigation it's a class feature that does something similar.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's my bad I thought duskblade gave you sudden quicken. Upon investigation it's a class feature that does something similar.

Well, at least it gave me some reason to think about epic advancement:

> Far Shot
> Point Blank Shot (just needed as prerequisite for..)
> Distant Shot

With "Distant Shot", the build can hit anything it can see/spot without any penalty at all.

"There shall stand no enemy in my sight! Crumble and shiver to death"

[EndocrineBandit]

Could you use the master throwers palm trick to hurl a large amount of ricochet knives with the iron heart prc?

[Gruftzwerg]

Could you use the master throwers palm trick to hurl a large amount of ricochet knives with the iron heart prc?

Won't work out.
First Arcane Channeling only work on a single weapon. And even if you could overcome that somehow, it still wouldn't work. The palm trick lets you use 2 thrown weapons at once (1 roll, 1 target). Since both weapons charges are coming from the same source/spell, they can't affect a single target more than once (unless noted otherwise.) Duskblades Arcance Channeling also has the same limitation (every target gets only affected once, even if you use multiple attacks/hits in a single round).

[Anthrowhale]

Empower Spell only adds ~5 to the damage. You might consider just getting a rod of metamagic[Empower] instead. More generally, how are you getting the metamagic reduction necessary to use Maximize and Empower?

Edit: Ah, I see it's via Recaster's Sudden Metamagic. You can increase the number of times/day of Maximize Empower Shivering Touch from 2 to 3 via using a rod of Empower Spell, and then you'll have two more instances of Maximize Shivering Touch to use.

[Gruftzwerg]

Empower Spell only adds ~5 to the damage. You might consider just getting a rod of metamagic[Empower] instead. More generally, how are you getting the metamagic reduction necessary to use Maximize and Empower?

The rod would be just optional.
I need 2 metamagic feats to enter Recaster.
And Recaster gives you "Sudden Metamagic" ( classlvl/day times usable), which frees the cost of a limited selection of Metamagic feats (which you need to have the feat for it).

I know that Empower wouldn't be worth it under normal circumstances, but as the situation is given, it's the 2nd best metamagic feat I could find for this build and works out imho.

edit: k, you have given yourself the answer in the meanwhile^^. Yeah, as said, the Rod would be a nice magic item investment for more daily resources.

[EndocrineBandit]

I didn't mean to imply with the arcane channeling. I just think it would be amusing to be able to essentially produce a shredstorm on a round by round basis with daggers or something of the sort. Maybe use something with powerful build or jotunbrud

[Gruftzwerg]

I added a recommend weapon (enchantment):
+ 5 Keen Falcion (or any other weapon with 18-20 crit and crit enchantment on it)

Since Ability damage can crit for double dmg (in our chase 46.5 average Dex dmg!), we need a weapon with max crit range and crit enchantment on it.

I didn't mean to imply with the arcane channeling. I just think it would be amusing to be able to essentially produce a shredstorm on a round by round basis with daggers or something of the sort. Maybe use something with powerful build or jotunbrud

would demand to much progress into Epic lvls or another type of build (with no shivering touch involved..).

[EndocrineBandit]

Correct, I'm thinking a different build. No arcane channeling. Dusk blade actually wouldn't be necessary for what I'm now thinking. Might help, at least provide more options for what you're capable of, but still. Your build kind of inspired me. Hmm.

[Gruftzwerg]

Correct, I'm thinking a different build. No arcane channeling. Dusk blade actually wouldn't be necessary for what I'm now thinking. Might help, at least provide more options for what you're capable of, but still. Your build kind of inspired me. Hmm.

I'm happy if I could inspire you. Work it out and/or make a thread and I'll gladly join you.

Maybe have a look on my other last 2 builds who also make use of Bloodstorm Blade classes features (Hammerdin & ShurikeNado). There could be hidden more food for thoughts for you ;)

[ben-zayb]

Why not just Duskblade 13 / Recaster X / Fast progression PrC Y? Get Blood Wind and go to town

[Gruftzwerg]

Why not just Duskblade 13 / Recaster X / Fast progression PrC Y? Get Blood Wind and go to town

First, I wasn't aware of that spell^^
But on 2nd thought, imho it wouldn't work out.

Blood Wind lets you use your natural weapons/unarmed strike as thrown weapon. Further it allows you to make a melee attack & dmg roll, but that's it. It doesn't allow for special melee attacks, since it is a ranged attack (lets NA/US attacks count as thrown weapon).
You need Thunderous Throw (Bloodstorm Blade 2) to let your ranged attacks count as melee again, to apply melee bonuses & special attacks (in our chase: Whirlwind).

[Kaje]

Won't work out.
First Arcane Channeling only work on a single weapon.

Nope, it affects all your melee attacks that round, regardless of how many weapons you use.

[heavyfuel]

Since the ability calls range penalties, you can still attack at range and aren't forced to attack in melee range.

Further IIRC "reach" ain't a defined keyword/term and just implies how far your weapon can attack. "Reach Weapon" is a defined term, but that is not the case here. "Reach" is only defined by your weapons attack range (in this chase 10ft range increment which results in a max. attack range of 50ft.).

It most certainly is

Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.

When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.

I'm aware of no rule that indicates ranged weapons have reach, and no such mention in the Bloodstorm Blade class.

You can still use arcane channelling, whirling attack, enlarge person, and a spiked chain to apply Shivering Touch to everyone in a 20ft radius, but bloodstorm blade does nothing for this combo

[Zanos]

To nitpick maximize and empower don't stack like that. You don't maximize the bonus empower damage. So maximized empowered shivering touch deals 18 + (3d6)/2 dex damage, or 23.25 average. Still enough to drop mostly anything.

[Gruftzwerg]

Nope, it affects all your melee attacks that round, regardless of how many weapons you use.

K, point for you. Had that somehow wrong in my mind. But as said, still wouldn't work out due to forbidden stacking rules.

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It most certainly is





I'm aware of no rule that indicates ranged weapons have reach, and no such mention in the Bloodstorm Blade class.

You can still use arcane channelling, whirling attack, enlarge person, and a spiked chain to apply Shivering Touch to everyone in a 20ft radius, but bloodstorm blade does nothing for this combo

The rule text you quoted didn't define "reach" at all. It just make use of the word "reach".

IIRC, to define a keyword in 3.5 you have some options:
- Bold written with a colon followed by explaining rule text (sometimes with some fluff text involved). e.g. " reach: ruletext...."
- As title of a paragraph
- As title of table

unless you can lead me to ruletext that clearly defines "reach" as what you assume, I'll stick to the general english definition of "reach". To make the difference clear: Just the usage of the word "reach" in some rule text ain't enough to "define it as keyword by rules".

__________________________________________

To nitpick maximize and empower don't stack like that. You don't maximize the bonus empower damage. So maximized empowered shivering touch deals 18 + (3d6)/2 dex damage, or 23.25 average. Still enough to drop mostly anything.

K, thx for pointing that out. I'll correct the values asap. I barely play with metamagic, especially the combo of empower + maximize is the first time I guess I used it in a build.

[heavyfuel]

The rule text you quoted didn't define "reach" at all. It just make use of the word "reach".

IIRC, to define a keyword in 3.5 you have some options:
- Bold written with a colon followed by explaining rule text (sometimes with some fluff text involved). e.g. " reach: ruletext...."
- As title of a paragraph
- As title of table

unless you can lead me to ruletext that clearly defines "reach" as what you assume, I'll stick to the general english definition of "reach". To make the difference clear: Just the usage of the word "reach" in some rule text ain't enough to "define it as keyword by rules".

This argument goes both ways. Is there rules text that says that definitions must abide to any of these options? (hint, there isn't)

I've presented rules text, aka, text that is in a rule book. You just refuse to see it cuz it goes against the TO build you think works

But sure, there are other examples. Looking at any monster table you'll find this line for "Space/Reach", same goes for the "Big and Little Creatures In Combat" table, which can be found on the SRD. It gives a column for "Reach (Long)".

[Hackulator]

Once you no longer have the feat, you can no longer use any abilities that require the feat as prereqs so I'm not sure how useful your mirror move deal is.

[Gruftzwerg]

This argument goes both ways. Is there rules text that says that definitions must abide to any of these options? (hint, there isn't)

I've presented rules text, aka, text that is in a rule book. You just refuse to see it cuz it goes against the TO build you think works

But sure, there are other examples. Looking at any monster table you'll find this line for "Space/Reach", same goes for the "Big and Little Creatures In Combat" table, which can be found on the SRD. It gives a column for "Reach (Long)".

The rule about definition of keywords is something that follows the base logic behind keywords and not a special d&d rule. Anywhere where you use keywords, you first need to clearly define a keyword (to prevent misinterpretations like in our chase), cause otherwise people would start to be confused about what is a keyword and what not.
And to define a keyword, there needs to be some kind of explanation added to it.

- A title or ability name with it's own paragraph/explanation text would do.
- A table name would do, cause the entire table explains something.

A single column in a table does not work imho, cause just a single value explains nothing.

Once you no longer have the feat, you can no longer use any abilities that require the feat as prereqs so I'm not sure how useful your mirror move deal is.

This is only accepted for feats (that you can't use em as long as you don't fulfill the requirements anymore).

For PrC thats a bit more iffy. Only 2 books actually have this rule for PrC called out, that you loose access to abilities when you loose the requirements (and Bloodstorm Blade is not in those 2 books).
But since the main source for PRC is the DMG, it doesn't become a general rule.
Cause if it would, there are a few PRC that would stop to work, cause at some point those PRC give you something that would prevent you from fulfilling the entry requirements anymore.
In the end, imho it's a broken rule, that should never be applied. And if you play strict RAW, it affects only 2 books of PrC which Bloodstorm Blade doesn't belong into.

[Hackulator]

The rule about definition of keywords is something that follows the base logic behind keywords and not a special d&d rule. Anywhere where you use keywords, you first need to clearly define a keyword (to prevent misinterpretations like in our chase), cause otherwise people would start to be confused about what is a keyword and what not.
And to define a keyword, there needs to be some kind of explanation added to it.

- A title or ability name with it's own paragraph/explanation text would do.
- A table name would do, cause the entire table explains something.

A single column in a table does not work imho, cause just a single value explains nothing.



This is only accepted for feats (that you can't use em as long as you don't fulfill the requirements anymore).

For PrC that a bit more iffy. Only 2 books actually have this rule for PrC called out, that you loose access to abilities when you loose the requirements (and Bloodstorm Blade is not in those 2 books).
But since the main source for PRC is the DMG, it doesn't become a general rule.
Cause if it would, there are a few PRC that would stop to work, cause at some point those PRC give you something that would prevent you from fulfilling the entry requirements anymore.
In the end, imho it's a broken rule, that should never be applied. And if you play strict RAW, it affects only 2 books of PrC which Bloodstorm Blade doesn't belong into.

Sorry, your build just doesn't work, you can try to use your RAWmancy as much as you want, but you don't have the prereqs, you can't use the powers. The level of arguments you have to make to even try to make your build legal should tip you off.

[Gruftzwerg]

Sorry, your build just doesn't work, you can try to use your RAWmancy as much as you want, but you don't have the prereqs, you can't use the powers. The level of arguments you have to make to even try to make your build legal should tip you off.

> read the Errata Rule about "Primary Sources"

> see that DMG is the Primary Source for PrC and that other books can only trump these rules in their own special niche (The rule is "Specific trumps general", not "Specific becomes general")

> look up where to find the rule you are talking about and see that it doesn't affect Bloodstorm Blade due to Primary Source rule

pls check the rules

edit:
Look up Dragon Disciple: You need to be a non-dragon race to enter it. At lvl 10 you get the Half-Dragon Template which turns you into a dragon.
If the rule you're talking about would be a general rule, Dragon Disciple would stop working once he hits lvl 10 of the prc.

[Gullintanni]

Sorry, your build just doesn't work, you can try to use your RAWmancy as much as you want, but you don't have the prereqs, you can't use the powers. The level of arguments you have to make to even try to make your build legal should tip you off.

I can't speak to the reach issue, but it's true that except for two specific PRC manuals, once you qualify for a PRC, you no longer need to meet the prerequisites to use its abilities. PRCs from Complete Warrior and only one other book are subject to that restriction. I'm AFB though and I can't remember the other book that mentions it.

[heavyfuel]

The rule about definition of keywords is something that follows the base logic behind keywords and not a special d&d rule. Anywhere where you use keywords, you first need to clearly define a keyword (to prevent misinterpretations like in our chase), cause otherwise people would start to be confused about what is a keyword and what not.
And to define a keyword, there needs to be some kind of explanation added to it.

- A title or ability name with it's own paragraph/explanation text would do.
- A table name would do, cause the entire table explains something.

A single column in a table does not work imho, cause just a single value explains nothing.

You talk a big talk about logic, but you're pretty quick to throw it out the window when it goes against your cherished build.

There's no "rule of definition of keywords". Not in d&d nor in any other system. Only in your head. What does exist is text, in a rule book, that says you're wrong. (if it's text talking about rules, in a rule book, it's rules text. Now THAT is logic)

And it's not one column on a single table, I've given you like 4 examples of the word "reach" being used in reference to melee reach. You're yet to give me one of it being used in reference to ranged distance.

[Gruftzwerg]

And it's not one column on a single table, I've given you like 4 examples of the word "reach" being used in reference to melee reach. You're yet to give me one of it being used in reference to ranged distance.

reference != defining a keyword

And since it ain't defined, common sense by english definition applies. You try to read rules where there aren't.

We have rules for "Reach Weapons", "Natural Reach due to Size" and for "Threatened Squares", but no special explanation of "reach" itself (= no keyword).

Further, if we look at the definition of the keyword Reach Weapons:

Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, spiked chains, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

Note: Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten all squares 10 feet (2 squares) away, even diagonally. (This is an exception to the rule that 2 squares of diagonal distance is measured as 15 feet.)

emphasis added on the important part.

So, a reach weapon is a melee weapon (checked) which allows it wielder to strike targets that aren't adjacent to him (checked). The other part just talks about "most reach weapons". Everything what defines a reach weapon is there. The build uses a melee weapon which is capable (thx due to classabilities) to attack targets that are not adjacent to him. And this range defines his reach with the weapon.

Sry for Bloodstorm Blade class feature being so cheesy, but that's not my fault. Enabling ranged attacks for melee weapons and than turning the ranged attack into a melee-ish attack back.

[heavyfuel]

reference != defining a keyword

And since it ain't defined, common sense by english definition applies. You try to read rules where there aren't.

We have rules for "Reach Weapons", "Natural Reach due to Size" and for "Threatened Squares", but no special explanation of "reach" itself (= no keyword).

Further, if we look at the definition of the keyword Reach Weapons:


emphasis added on the important part.

So, a reach weapon is a melee weapon (checked) which allows it wielder to strike targets that aren't adjacent to him (checked). The other part just talks about "most reach weapons". Everything what defines a reach weapon is there. The build uses a melee weapon which is capable (thx due to classabilities) to attack targets that are not adjacent to him. And this range defines his reach with the weapon.

Sry for Bloodstorm Blade class feature being so cheesy, but that's not my fault. Enabling ranged attacks for melee weapons and than turning the ranged attack into a melee-ish attack back.

All this text and still no evidence that you can use the word "reach" in reference to ranged attacks