Psionic Gestalt Question

[warbacon]

I did a quick search and didn't see anything, so here goes. I know I once saw an entry in one of the rulebooks (probably a companion book) that described what happens when you gestalt two psionic classes. I would appreciate if someone could remind me where that is.

Intuitively, feats gained at 1st, 3rd, etc. would apply to both classes, but do class feats (such as Wild Surge) apply to both classes' powers, or just to one?

Also, do you count PP seperately, or together? A Wiz//Sorc would clearly have two spells lists, owing to seperate sources of power, but all psionic classes get their power from their mind...

[Closet_Skeleton]

This question is basically identical to the question of multiclassing with psionics.

I think you have one power point pool. Since you can have power points without levels in Psionic classes (ie through certain races or the Wild Talent feat) I'd say power points are in no way tied to a specific class.

[ThunderEagle]

I'd say use the same rules as for multiclass psionic characters. one big pool of points, and you use the ML of the class using the power for whatever you manifest.

also, wild surge is a class ability, not a feat, so it would only apply to wilder powers by my reckoning.


Edit: my first ninja!

[Fax Celestis]

also, wild surge is a class ability, not a feat, so it would only apply to wilder powers by my reckoning.

False. Wild Surge applies to any psionic power available to you, regardless of method of acquisition.

[warbacon]

False. Wild Surge applies to any psionic power available to you, regardless of method of acquisition.

That does seem to match the RAW in the description of Wild Surge. Now if I could only get rid of that damned Daze effect ...

[Tokiko Mima]

That does seem to match the RAW in the description of Wild Surge. Now if I could only get rid of that damned Daze effect ...

Would Quick Recovery help with that?

brian c pointed out that Feat on another thread, so the credit is his if it works.

[warbacon]

There's no original save DC for that, though, which I think would make it not apply. Any reasonable DM would probably make the same call. Even if you could finagle it in, what's the DC?

[Tokiko Mima]

I would have said that too, but the Feat actually says that if you weren't allowed a save, then you get one anyway. Since you caused the Daze effect you're the originator. So the save DC would probably be (10 + 1/2 your manifester level + the additional manifester levels that caused the surge.)

[Alleine]

A pool of power points?

First, yay alliteration!
Second, that can get messy prettty fast, IMO. I like that my psion runs out of PP by the end of the day at lower levels, it keeps him on his toes so that he actually has to think about what power he's manifesting next. If you pooled all the pp, a psionic character at early levels would last a lot longer than anyone else if you are getting so many pp+int from one class, and even more pp+int from another class.

From my experience with psionics, meager though it is, it wouldn't be very balancing to add all your power points from both classes in a gestalt. In a multiclass it makes sense because you are onmly getting power points from one class per level.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think by 15th level I'll be hard pressed to spend all of by pp each day, especially since at level 20 the most you can use with overchannel is 23. I don't know though, maybe its just me.

[Fax Celestis]

A pool of power points?

First, yay alliteration!
Second, that can get messy prettty fast, IMO. I like that my psion runs out of PP by the end of the day at lower levels, it keeps him on his toes so that he actually has to think about what power he's manifesting next. If you pooled all the pp, a psionic character at early levels would last a lot longer than anyone else if you are getting so many pp+int from one class, and even more pp+int from another class.

From my experience with psionics, meager though it is, it wouldn't be very balancing to add all your power points from both classes in a gestalt. In a multiclass it makes sense because you are onmly getting power points from one class per level.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think by 15th level I'll be hard pressed to spend all of by pp each day, especially since at level 20 the most you can use with overchannel is 23. I don't know though, maybe its just me.

...how is a mass of power points from being Psion//Wilder any different from having a mass of spell slots from being a Wizard//Sorceror?

[Starsinger]

...how is a mass of power points from being Psion//Wilder any different from having a mass of spell slots from being a Wizard//Sorceror?

Nevermind that I don't actually think this is unbalanced for the Psion//Wilder, but a Wizard//Sorcerer can't spend her wizard slots on spells her sorcerer half knows.

[Draz74]

...how is a mass of power points from being Psion//Wilder any different from having a mass of spell slots from being a Wizard//Sorceror?

Because he can use power points from one class to "nova" with the other class. He still only gets one power per round, but it will consistently be a really good power.

Psion//Wilder isn't the best Gestalt combo in existence (MAD, 2 bad saves, d6 Hit Die), but I'd take it any day over Wizard//Sorcerer. All the flexibility of a Psion (in terms of number of Known Powers) -- actually even a little bit more -- plus a giant PP pool and the ability to Wild Surge with any of those powers? Yes please.

[Fax Celestis]

Eh, I suppose. Still, this is gestalt. Novas are the least of your worries, really.

[Jasdoif]

I'm not sure you can stack the power point progressions. Wouldn't you get it at the rate of the faster class, since they're the same class feature?

[warbacon]

I'm not sure you can stack the power point progressions. Wouldn't you get it at the rate of the faster class, since they're the same class feature?

Oooh ... that's a very good point. Depends on the DM, I suppose, but they are technically a class feature they both share.

Maybe a Psion//Factotum? Lots of useful INT-based abilities in there, d8 HD, and every skill you could want if you get Able Learner. Although, you kinda want Kalashtar or Illuminated for the Quori Power Link crystals ... +2 augmentation PP for free!

[Ramza00]

I'm not sure you can stack the power point progressions. Wouldn't you get it at the rate of the faster class, since they're the same class feature?

This has been argued to death...that said...
The vast conscensious of people is that they are seperate class features. With the logic of them being the same class feature you can argue that a druid/cleric will only get 1 spellcasting side for both spellcasting derives under the catergory "Spells." Of course this is absurd, but if you take the logic of power point being the same and thus you only get one this is the conclusion it will take you.

[Jasdoif]

With the logic of them being the same class feature you can argue that a druid/cleric will only get 1 spellcasting side for both spellcasting derives under the catergory "Spells." Of course this is absurd, but if you take the logic of power point being the same and thus you only get one this is the conclusion it will take you.

The difference is that druid and cleric each have their own separate progressions. You can't prepare your cleric spells in druid slots (unless they're also druid spells), for instance.

Meanwhile, your power point pool is a single pool. Psion power points and Wilder power points go into the same place and can be used for the same purpose. Hence the questionability.

[Jack_Simth]

The difference is that druid and cleric each have their own separate progressions. You can't prepare your cleric spells in druid slots (unless they're also druid spells), for instance.

Meanwhile, your power point pool is a single pool. Psion power points and Wilder power points go into the same place and can be used for the same purpose. Hence the questionability.

Does the Psion//Wilder get bonus power points based on Intelligence or Charisma?

[Tokiko Mima]

The difference is that druid and cleric each have their own separate progressions. You can't prepare your cleric spells in druid slots (unless they're also druid spells), for instance.

Meanwhile, your power point pool is a single pool. Psion power points and Wilder power points go into the same place and can be used for the same purpose. Hence the questionability.

I know someone is going to point out the dual caster classes are not recommended for Gestalt, but isn't combining spell slots from different classes what they normally do? I mean, Ultimate Magus draws on Sorcerer slots to metamagic Wizard slots. Eldritch Theurge empowers their Warlock Eldritch Blasts with spell slots, and casts their spells with an Eldritch Essense. Isn't that exactly what you're talking about, just in non-gestalt form? Combining both powers together for greater effect?

You are still limited in the number of actions you have in a round. You just last much longer because the total number of powers that can be used in a day is greater.

[Jasdoif]

Does the Psion//Wilder get bonus power points based on Intelligence or Charisma?

That's a good question. The multiclassing rules for psionic characters don't even address this....So I'll just make something up for the general case

The highest of (1/2 x manifester level x ability bonus) for all your manifesting classes.


Also, I do feel that this is all simply a case of psionics not being considered when the gestalt rules were written. However, an individual DM may feel differently, so the subject needs to be addressed.

[Starsinger]

Does the Psion//Wilder get bonus power points based on Intelligence or Charisma?

Uhh... I'd say both since they're two separate classes.


Why is everyone trying to "nerf" this so bad? So they have insane amounts of PP! Good for them! Gestalt characters tend to not run out of spells anyways.

[warbacon]

You also have to realize that some guys who enjoy making Gestalts (like me) tend to get obsessive about the rules. Sure, we'd like a powerful character or a particular flavor, but we also want something that follows the rules. So it's not really a "nerf" -- we're just trying to find out how it would actually work in the system.

That being said, if you combine the two "class features" (each classes' PP progression), I'd say higher of CHA or INT bonuses makes sense. But I think to follow the flavor of Gestalt, you should add your Psion PP pool (including INT bonus PP) to your Wilder pool (including CHA bonus PP). Consider this: you take Psion 4 // Wilder 4, but then become Psion 8 // Wilder 4/Factotum 4 ... It makes more sense to me that you stop gaining half your points rather than continuing a single PP progression.

Psion // Wilder (or even better Erudite // Wilder) really aren't short for power points if built halfway decently, so the increase in PP isn't *really* relevant for most cases. Perhaps you're maybe going for an Overchannel build with an Elan. Getting ~800 PP @ level 20 means 3200 HP with Enhanced Elan Resilience ...