No Cross-Class Skills

[Dausuul]

So... I am thinking of eliminating the idea of "cross-class skills" from my campaign. All skills would be class skills for everybody. I'd also hand out 16 extra skill points at level 1, and 4 extra skill points per level beyond that, so that characters could be a little more well-developed.

What do people think? Anyone see any major flaws in this idea?

[blue_fenix]

Watch out for how much easier this makes it to meet the prerequisites for certain Prestige Classes.

[Aximili]

This will allow wizards to entirely cover the role of the skill-monkeys. If your players usually lack a skill-monkey, it might be a good idea. Otherwise, the guy might feel less special when he notices that, for every skill he invests in, there'll be one or two team mates who have it too.

[Indon]

Wouldn't it just be easier to make every skill count as a class skill, and have the same number of skill points?

[Yakk]

There are classes who are designed to be skill-monkeys.

What are you going to give them in exchange?

[Generic PC]

Well, you are essentially giving your characters 4 more pumped skills. This gives a rogue at least 12, probably 14 or 15. This gives Wizards about 10 pumped skills. (unless you are a grey elf, or venerable... etc.) So, many characters will be applicable in more situations. Dont forget, there is about 36 skills. (counts knowledge, perform, craft, profession, Speak language only once.)

[Person_Man]

I think its a poor idea. Someone can take one level of Factotum and the Able Learner feat to accomplish this. But at least that way they have to invest 1 feat and a class level to do it. Skill Monkeys are already the weakest catagory of classes, why screw them further?

[ThorFluff]

Go for it! sure you nerf the skillmonkeys, but do as any other roleplaying game EXCEPT DnD does, demand that they roleplay the increase! Only allow them to put skill point into skills they already have if they've used it extensivly, and also do not allow them to gain new skills unless they've sought out a proficient teacher, or have spent ages practicing.

[AKA_Bait]

There are classes who are designed to be skill-monkeys.

What are you going to give them in exchange?

QFT

Now bards are even LESS useful.

Also, you may want to consider if in making all skills class you really want to lift the cap on skills per class. Does a fighter with equal rants in spellcraft make as much sense as a wizard of equal level?

[warmachine]

Give out the points but modify the cross-class concept to half max ranks but normal cost. Prestige class entry difficulty is preserved, classes that are meant to be good at a skill can't be overshadowed whilst classes that are cross-class at Spot and Listen won't completely suck at high levels.

Warrior son of a nobleman with Knowledge: Nobility? Beguiler using a lute to masquerade as an entertainer? Paladin that scrounges information in the underworld? All now affordable.

[Kurald Galain]

Given that there aren't all that many skills that are used regularly, this essentially gives pretty much all those skills to all characters with a decent intelligence score. I doubt that's the point of a diversified skill system.

Bottom line, if you want skill-based characters, don't play a system designed for level-based characters.

[Raum]

A suggestion - make all skills usable untrained class skills and don't give out any extra skill points. This allows the generic athletic, knowledge, and perception skills to be used by any one investing points while keeping limited access to unique skills (such as UMD) and keeping the number of skill points granted to a class as a meaningful class ability.

[ThorFluff]

Bottom line, if you want skill-based characters, don't play a system designed for level-based characters.

QFT

The fact of the matter is that, if you want a fun and flexible system that makes sense, playing DnD is barking up the wrong tree.

[Fax Celestis]

QFT

The fact of the matter is that, if you want a fun and flexible system that makes sense, playing DnD is barking up the wrong tree.

nWoD is probably a better system if you want skill based.

[horseboy]

QFT

The fact of the matter is that, if you want a fun and flexible system that makes sense, playing DnD is barking up the wrong tree.

Quoted for truth.
But it's your system. Try it out. I really don't see how it's going to "kill skill monkeys" by the fighter being able to spot an ambush he's seen many times. Or (ZOMG) know something about something instead of just be an idiot lug there to smash things.

[Chronos]

I really don't see how it's going to "kill skill monkeys" by the fighter being able to spot an ambush he's seen many times. Or (ZOMG) know something about something instead of just be an idiot lug there to smash things.

Knowledge and Spot might not make much of a difference, but it would, in fact, eliminate the purpose of rogues if the fighter could pick pockets and locks, and disarm traps. Why would anyone ever want to play a rogue, bard, or ranger with this rule change?

[Tengu]

The fact of the matter is that, if you want a fun and flexible system that makes sense, playing DnD is barking up the wrong tree.

Couldn't agree more, with all three points!

[nerulean]

We recently had a caster wangle his way into getting search, spot, listen and survival as class skills and proceeded to max them all out. When he took track as well, the ranger's player felt so useless that he actually had his character killed off and made a new one.

Any chance you can tell us what your motivation is for doing this? It might let us offer some alternative suggestions.

[Fax Celestis]

Upon pondering, if you're thinking about doing this, you might want to look at some of the UA variants.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Making everything class skills for everyone shouldn't be a huge deal, but you're giving double or more the usual number of skill points that most players will have, which is a tremendous departure from the norm. That is going to have huge consequences, and I'd advise against doing it.

[Dausuul]

Any chance you can tell us what your motivation is for doing this? It might let us offer some alternative suggestions.

Mainly, I want to open up more options for people to develop their characters. I have always found the skill point limits in D&D to be ridiculously low, particularly for classes such as the fighter and the sorceror. I would like people to be able to play sneaky sorcerors or knowledgeable fighters without a lot of multi-classing gymnastics.

I would also like to do this without switching systems. I'm looking for something I can easily drop into D&D when I run it, without having to convert people to a different system. (Although I will admit that I got the idea after playing Iron Heroes... I was amazed at how much more flexible and interesting characters were when they got a decent number of skill points to play with.)

I'm not overly concerned with the issue of PrC requirements; I keep a sharp eye on PrCs in my games. The point about screwing over the skill-monkeys is a good one, however. I'll have to think on that one.

[Golthur]

In my current homebrew campaign, I've boosted the skill points slightly across the board (including the skill monkey), kept the max rank cap, but put the points at 1:1 for everything.

This seems to have done the trick with my particular crew, without screwing over the skill monkey. He's still the only one who can gain lvl+3 ranks in Move Silently, Open Locks, etc., but it lets people who are so inclined toss a rank or two in Move Silently, Hide, Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, etc. without feeling like they're "losing" skill points because of the 2:1.

[Aximili]

What we do in our group, if I may suggest, is that you can switch class skills with non-class skills at character creation, as long as that is explained by your characters background.

The most simple of cases is that of a non-rogue/bard character who plays the lute since he was a kid. He's been playing that thing for his entire life, but, for some reason, he has to pay double when aquiring ranks in the respective Perform skill.
What we do is: we allow the guy to "loose" one of his class skills, and to treat perform as a class skill.

Another example would be a Noble man well trained in warfare. Suddenly, just because he is a fighter, he cannot purchase knowledge nobility regularly eventhough he grew up in that enviroment (heck, he might even have had classes about that sutff). So he might trade off intimidate in exchange for knowledge (nobility).

This also helps a lot those who want to play dexterity fighters (I mean, a expert with thrown weapons who can't tumble his way across the field is just silly) and there on.


Also, I think giving extra skill points is a good idea, but not in the way you mentioned. Just throwing 4 extra points is too much and too careless. Look at each class, and see how much each one should get. That way you can give the fighter and the sorcerer exactly the oportunity they need, without overloading the wizard with skills.

I really don't see how it's going to "kill skill monkeys" by the fighter being able to spot an ambush he's seen many times. Or (ZOMG) know something about something instead of just be an idiot lug there to smash things.

It's not. What's gonna kill the skill monkeys is that the wizard suddenly can open locks, disable device, UMD, search, hide, and move silently.

[Paragon Badger]

Rouges with 10 intelligence will get [(8 + Int Mod) x 4)] + 16 skill points at level one.

A rogue would get 48 skill points at level one... That's enough to put max ranks into 12 skills at level one.

Each level, this rogue will get 12 skill points. That's enough to maintain the highest available rank score for each skill he chose at level one.

Wizards with 18 intelligence gets [(2 + 4) x 4] + 16 skill points at level one.

Wizards would get 40 skill points at level with an int score of 18. Even though they have a huge intelligence advantage, it's still not as much.

Unfortunately, it's still enough to max out 10 skills at level one.

Also, this wizards will get 10 skill ranks a level, allowing him to keep all of his ranks at the maximum level available.

So it doesn't look too good...

The only way in which I would suggest using this system, was if you had a party that was smaller than 3 people, or if you were solo-ing. Therefore, the party will not be debilitated in terms of overcoming obstacles in a creative way.

Perhaps making all skills available as class skills, but keeping the progression the same will be better suited for larger parties if you are intent on keeping the system. But honestly, with a larger party, there is a more diverse array of skills to use as a resource, so you won't need many 'Jack-of-all-trades' characters anyway.

If you've played KotOR II, there was a feat that allowed you to transform a cross-class skill into a class skill (And it remained a class skill, even if you took a prestige class later.) which would be incredibly useful for a large party campaign where a PC does not want to feel restricted.

"I'm a sorceror, but it says in my background that my character is also an excellent spokesperson. I know that if I put any ranks into persuade, I'm just taking away twice as many ranks that I could put into Spellcraft or Bluff."

Voila! Trade a feat for a class skill and suddenly your class can match your backstory.

I'm unaware if there is such a feat in D&D... (I don't have all the books. Nor is my memory so great >_>) but you could always homebrew it up.

[Tokiko Mima]

Personally, the 3.5 way to go would be doubling or tripling your skill points instead of adding a set number. That way skill monkeys benefit much more than other classes, and have little to complain about. Other classes could have a few skills they are good at, while skill-monkeys have almost every skill mastered if that's what they wanted.

While we're at it, can we fix it so high Charisma types are better at Charisma skills than high Intelligence types? It's always been wierd to me that a level 10 wizard with an 8 charisma is generally better at Diplomacy than a 20 charisma level 10 sorcerer.

[asqwasqw]

Personally, the 3.5 way to go would be doubling or tripling your skill points instead of adding a set number. That way skill monkeys benefit much more than other classes, and have little to complain about. Other classes could have a few skills they are good at, while skill-monkeys have almost every skill mastered if that's what they wanted.

The problem with that is that the few skills the other classes are good at would be the few skills that matter. If (2 level 1 characters) a wizard has 4 ranks in disable device, and a rogue has 4 ranks in disable device and 4 ranks in decorative cake frosting, then they are both equal in the skills that matter. Oh yeah, the wizard can also cast spells...

[Gralamin]

The problem with that is that the few skills the other classes are good at would be the few skills that matter. If (2 level 1 characters) a wizard has 4 ranks in disable device, and a rogue has 4 ranks in disable device and 4 ranks in decorative cake frosting, then they are both equal in the skills that matter. Oh yeah, the wizard can also cast spells...

Not with that 8 in int he can't. (Yeah I know example...)

[Koga]

Why not mix-in a bit of d20 modern?

All skills are class-skills, and classes gain a +1 bonus to all skills on thier class-skills list?

No bonus skillpoints, that just nerfs the rogue.

[horseboy]

The problem with that is that the few skills the other classes are good at would be the few skills that matter. If (2 level 1 characters) a wizard has 4 ranks in disable device, and a rogue has 4 ranks in disable device and 4 ranks in decorative cake frosting, then they are both equal in the skills that matter. Oh yeah, the wizard can also cast spells...

Who cares about disable device? If I've got a bag of tricks I've got all the disable device I need.

[Sergeantbrother]

I can understand the desire for players to have more skills or have more options for in depth character ideas. I think the problem is that it will partially destroy the distinction between classes as well as the usefulness of skill heavy classes.

What my group has done to allow characters to have a bit more flavor represented in their skills is the give each character 2 extra class skills of their choosing. This allows for a character to have a back story that is represented with skills (Roy Greenhilt might have Spellcraft as a class skill since his dad was a wizard) but still lets the class determine the overall theme of the character and the skills they have access to.