Ow, my brain! (A Curse for Logic Ninja)

[Raolin_Fenix]

Man. Is it possible to be both a huge noob and a huge munch? Yes, yes it is. Looking for proof? Look no farther, for I am living proof. BEHOLD! I shall call it the nubmunch.

So we're playing a Planescape setting with gestalt rules. I started off (from level one) as a Chaotic Neutral human wizard/warlock, and planned to take him to Archmage. As a human, I don't have to worry about multiclass penalties, so ultimately, we're talking about Wizard 15 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 20.

Then I found the Loremaster PrC, and decided it would be worth taking and fit my character fairly well. So I shuffled my skills and fiddled with my planned feat progression to make room for an early Loremaster jump. But then I discovered that another party-member (a fighter/wizard) is also shooting for Loremaster and Archmage both. I don't want to be a bloody copycat. So I scrap the idea for Loremaster a few levels into the game, fortunately before I started taking prereqs for it.

Then I found the Geometer PrC, which suited my character even better. Well, not really, but insofar as he casts spells in an unusual way and his spellbook probably should be irritating for other casters to figure out, it fits. Cosmetic changes, same mechanical deal. And he's very interested in learning and knowledge and all that stuff, so I have no reason not to justify him being interested in all the other Geometer abilities. So I scramble my skills and juggle my feats (skills being the problem, with two cross-class and another 9 ranks in a skill I hadn't taken; feats, I just put back into their proper order now that Loremaster wasn't an issue). So ultimately, I'm looking at Wizard 10 / Geometer 5 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 20.

But then I'm like, "You know, I could get more mileage out of Fatespinner than I could out of one metamagic feat. What if I take that after Geometer?" This is the first truly munchy decision I've made thus far; Fatespinner sort of suits the idea behind my character's creation, but only by sort of twisting the idea (even worse than I did for Geometer). Fatespinner requires five more ranks in a skill I haven't, up to this point, bothered with. It's tough to justify. Wizard 5 / Geometer 5 / Fatespinner 5 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 20.

But then I'm like, "Huh, the last level of Fatespinner is nice, but I've read TLN's Guide to Being Batman, and I'm just not sure I'm willing to give up my caster level for it." So then I decide to take the last level alongside Wizard (gestalt, remember), and give up a level of Warlock for it. That'll cost me 1d6 Eldritch Blast damage, five points of energy resistance, and a Dark invocation, but for an eighth- and ninth-level spell slot in exchange, it's worth it -- especially since I'm taking Archmage eventually as well, and I need my spell slots. And that way I'll also get my Seal Fate ability for the Fatespinner. Joy. Wizard 6 / Geometer 5 / Fatespinner 5 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 19.

Oh, wait. I can't take Geometer at level six, the way I'd planned to. I forgot that rule where the class is the first thing you pick, and it has a prereq of 9 ranks in both Decipher Script and Knowledge: Arcana -- so technically, I can't take it until level seven. Stupid noobliness and its insistence on making me forget rules. Oh well -- I don't need the last level of Geometer anyway. Wizard 7 / Geometer 4 / Fatespinner 5 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 19.

So what do you think, looking at that last lineup? Well, if you're a munch like me, you're thinking, "Dude, those last two levels of Wizard don't really do anything for you. No new class abilities... totally worthless, all you get out of it is the familiar advancement. Why not pick another PrC with the '+1 level of existing spellcasting class" feature?' That way you get a couple more class abilities for your buck." But I can't afford to lose any more feats; my progression is pretty important to my ability to Excel. "You know," said I, "the Mindbender doesn't have any feat prereqs, and I'd only have to shuffle my skill points a little more than I already have, to pick up the 4 ranks in two class skills I haven't been bothering with and 4 cross-class ranks. And I can take it at level six! And if I only take the first level of it, I'll still get my wizard class progression. Although I eventually plan to turn my character Good, but maybe at that time, the DM will rule that since the only Special ability isn't evil yet, I can keep it. So then I'll get Telepathy out to 100 feet. Good communication, everyone will really like me for that!" I mean, there's no reason it suits my character, not even if I twist the idea around like a slinky, but hey -- if my character heard that there were people who knew how to speak with their minds over a hundred feet whenever they wanted to, he'd be interested in learning it too!" Notice, by the way, the order in which I think about "things I want" and "things my character wants, or reasons I can justify it." Wizard 6 / Mindbender 1 / Geometer 4 / Fatespinner 5 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 19.

"But Raolin," wheedled a voice, "you've still got a level of Wizard that isn't helping you in any way, shape, or form. Level 6 is pointless for a Wizard except as a means to continue to level 7, which you won't be." "You're right," I answered it. "Do you suppose there's a local Wayfarers Union office in Sigil?"

FINAL OUTCOME:
Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Geometer 4 / Fatespinner 5 / Archmage 5 / Wayfarer Guide 1 / Warlock 19

Oh, by the way, I almost forgot to mention. My character is now, between sessions, in the process of leveling up. Next session, I'll officially be level three.

[Seffbasilisk]

Seems like to tried to powergame a bit too much for your current skill-level.

I'd say stick'm with the progression that makes best sense for YOU, and focus more on the RP of it then the crunch at this point. Next game perhaps.

(Don't blame it on TLN, 'e just tried to give y'all a hand, 's not his fault you're not quite up to rollin' at that pace yet.)

[Raolin_Fenix]

I know. The blame-pointing was only in jest. :D

[The_Werebear]

Quite amusing tale. I've done that before.

[Krellen]

If you require 9 ranks in skills to be a Geometer, you could've done the progression you had with Wizard 6. Max ranks is level +3, not +2.

Wizard 6 -> Geometer 5 -> Fatespinner 4 -> Archmage 5 // Warlock 15 -> Fatespinner 5(+1) -> Warlock 19.

[Telonius]

Sometime when I have about 20 minutes to write it out, I'll tell you the sad tale of my Shifter Urban Ranger who turned into a Shifter Rogue4/Wiz2/MasterofMasks10/ArcaneTrickster...

[Raolin_Fenix]

If you require 9 ranks in skills to be a Geometer, you could've done the progression you had with Wizard 6. Max ranks is level +3, not +2.

Wizard 6 -> Geometer 5 -> Fatespinner 4 -> Archmage 5 // Warlock 15 -> Fatespinner 5(+1) -> Warlock 19.

I meant, I'd intended to take Geometer as my sixth-level class, so Wizard 5 / Geometer 1 -- thinking that, since I'm gaining level six, I could use the new skill points I'm gaining at the upcoming sixth level to qualify for what I'm taking at sixth level. (The other level of Wizard would come in later.)

Yeah, I don't think straight sometimes, but I wrote it out that way and had to change it back. =/



I think it goes something like this:



Warlock 19

Wizard 6 -> Geo 2 -> Fatespinner 4 -> Archmage 5 -> Geo 4 (+2) -> Wizard 7/Fatespinner 5 (finish). The last part can be injected anywhere post-Archmage.

I think the way you have it listed would require me to take a level of Archmage and Fatespinner at the same time, which I'm not allowed to do. =/

[Pakiti]

Wonderful story. Reminds me of a few of my friends at times ("I wanna do this", "no, I wanna do that!" "Wait, can I do this?").

[Dairun Cates]

Psh. You want accidental twinking, try point buy systems. I've seen people become super twinks completely by accident.

[PlatinumJester]

Whosajiggawhat? Damn that was confusing.

[Starbuck_II]

Man. Is it possible to be both a huge noob and a huge munch? Yes, yes it is. Looking for proof? Look no farther, for I am living proof. BEHOLD! I shall call it the nubmunch.

So we're playing a Planescape setting with gestalt rules. I started off (from level one) as a Chaotic Neutral human wizard/warlock, and planned to take him to Archmage. As a human, I don't have to worry about multiclass penalties, so ultimately, we're talking about Wizard 15 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 20.

You messed up the Gestalht rules. Gestalht is 2 classes (neither counts as 2 classes for Exp), Prcs are also gestalhted (read the gestalht rules again if you missed this).

So you'd need 3 base classes to get exp penalties.

So Wizard/Warlock 15 than Archmage/Warlock 5 was your progression?

Then I found the Geometer PrC, which suited my character even better. Well, not really, but insofar as he casts spells in an unusual way and his spellbook probably should be irritating for other casters to figure out, it fits. Cosmetic changes, same mechanical deal. And he's very interested in learning and knowledge and all that stuff, so I have no reason not to justify him being interested in all the other Geometer abilities. So I scramble my skills and juggle my feats (skills being the problem, with two cross-class and another 9 ranks in a skill I hadn't taken; feats, I just put back into their proper order now that Loremaster wasn't an issue). So ultimately, I'm looking at Wizard 10 / Geometer 5 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 20.

Warlock/Wizard 10, Geometer/Warlock 5, Archmage/Warlock5?
This is your new progression?

But then I'm like, "You know, I could get more mileage out of Fatespinner than I could out of one metamagic feat. What if I take that after Geometer?" This is the first truly munchy decision I've made thus far; Fatespinner sort of suits the idea behind my character's creation, but only by sort of twisting the idea (even worse than I did for Geometer). Fatespinner requires five more ranks in a skill I haven't, up to this point, bothered with. It's tough to justify. Wizard 5 / Geometer 5 / Fatespinner 5 / Archmage 5 / Warlock 20.

New build:
Warlock/Wizard 5, Geometer/Warlock 5, Fatespinner/Warlock 5, Archmage/Warlock 5?

"But Raolin," wheedled a voice, "you've still got a level of Wizard that isn't helping you in any way, shape, or form. Level 6 is pointless for a Wizard except as a means to continue to level 7, which you won't be." "You're right," I answered it. "Do you suppose there's a local Wayfarers Union office in Sigil?"

FINAL OUTCOME:
Wizard 5 / Mindbender 1 / Geometer 4 / Fatespinner 5 / Archmage 5 / Wayfarer Guide 1 / Warlock 19

Oh, by the way, I almost forgot to mention. My character is now, between sessions, in the process of leveling up. Next session, I'll officially be level three.

So you are planning your build, but don't know what you want?

[Raolin_Fenix]

You've got the progressions right, more or less. Some of them need to be mix-and-matched, though.

To put it in those terms the final progression goes something like this, in the order I take them:

Wizard/Warlock 5, Mindindbender/Warlock 1, Geometer/Warlock 2, Fatespinner/Warlock 4, Archmage/Warlock 5, Wizard/Fatespinner 1, Geometer/Warlock 2.

Turns out I was wrong about Wayfarer Guide too, since I can't take that alongside Fatespinner. Can't take two PrCs at once.

So you'd need 3 base classes to get exp penalties.

I thought the ultimate Wizard 15/Archmage 5/Warlock 20 would put my Wizard and Warlock class too far apart; Archmage doesn't count, but Wizard and Warlock separately would.

That's rendered moot because I'm human (so favored class = any), and because we've got a house-rule going that allows us to consider a PrC as an extension of one of your base classes for the purposes of multiclassing -- so Wizard 15/Archmage 5 could be considered Wizard 20 for multiclassing purposes.

So you are planning your build, but don't know what you want?

Not exactly. I'm at level 3 now, and trying to work out what I can manage in the future. It's so far ahead that it barely even matters, though.





As a footnote to the entire thing, it turns out I won't have enough skill points to qualify for both Mindbender and Geometer when I need to. If I'd planned from the beginning to do this, maybe, but as it is, I won't get enough skill points. I can do one or the other. :P

Which is just as well. I probably wouldn't have added Mindbender and Wayfarer Guide even if I could have gotten away with it. I'm just a recreational munchkin, not a real one.

[HidaTsuzua]

With all the skill requirements you have, you might want to look into retraining via PHBII. That way you can qualify for things sooner as if you had planned all of this from the start. You might also want to get some levels in swiftblade while you're at it.

I've run into a similar situation when I've worked on characters especially gestalt. I usually end up having to make several different characters and comparing them. I must have made 4 different versions of a druid::X/Master of Many Forms gestalt. He eventually ended up as a tentacle Kung Fu fighting druid::monk/Warshaper/Master of Many Forms worshiper of Bahumut. The background was fun for that one.

[Caelestion]

For those interested in saves or BAB, level 6 is never pointless for any class - +1 BAB and all saves.

[Just Alex]

If Einstein was right, you managed to munchkin so hard you came out the other end as a noob. I hereby submit to add this to the Theory of Relativity as the Alex-Munchkin Corollary.

[MeklorIlavator]

Wonderful story. Reminds me of a few of my friends at times ("I wanna do this", "no, I wanna do that!" "Wait, can I do this?").

Hey, I constrain myself to 1 thing during campaigns. I haven't gone through 3 different character like some do.

[brian c]

For those interested in saves or BAB, level 6 is never pointless for any class - +1 BAB and all saves.

Heh... that's one reason why dips in low BAB classes can be bad if you're not using fractionals. If you take one level in 4 different 1/2 or 3/4 BAB classes, you get nothing from it. (Well, you get spells, which are better anyway)