Class Balance in Practice

[Bosh]

I think its fairly clear which classes/tactics are theoretically more effective than others in D&D by now. 90% of arguements about balance are a handful of holdouts argueing against the consensus point of view. Instead of rehashing this again, I'd like to see a discussion about the sort of things that work in actual gameplay, the sorts of things that result in gimped characters and what parties to do deal with unbalanced situations. So quickly describe one of your parties and sketch out who was more powerful than who and why:

1. Half-Orc fighter/half-orc paragon/outcast champion
Strengths: Best stats, massive damage output, good mix of charging/sundering/grappling. Massive intimidation modifier made him useful outside of combat and go a lot done by shouting. Great for killing big ugly critters that the DM liked throwing at us and had a decent will save thanks to the outcast champion PRC.
Weaknesses: Bad defense (ameliorated by bad monster tactics,bad mobility (ameliorated by the DM not using that against him), unwillingness to kill NPCs who he viewed as not deserving death, no Shock Trooper feat (took Skill Focus (Intimidate) instead) and craptacular Ref save (which didn't come up often).

2. Human sorcerer/alienist.
Strengths: chain summoning of paranormal template critters helped fill up the battlefield. If we got the jump on the enemy and he had a few critters summoned ahead of time they could rush the enemy and change the whole course of battle.
Weaknesses: relied almost exclusively on summoned critters during battle which could be a problem when we didn't achieve surprise since they took a while to wear down the enemy.

3. Elf wizard/elf paragon/loremaster.
Strengths: Had the most utility spells of anyone most of them were great.
Weaknesses: relied mostly on blasting spells in combat and couldn't match the half-orc in damage output.

4. Elf ranger/duskblade/arcane archer
Strengths: Good consistent three arrows/round and massive spot and listen modifiers that kept us from getting ambushed. Good mook slayer.
Weakensses: Sub-par combination of classes, low damge output (wasn't much use against critters with DR). Didn't scout ahead because didn't want to get out of range of melee/caster support.

5. Human bard
Strengths: Was the only one who could use our wand of cure light wounds.
Weaknesses: His main use was the ability to use the wand of cure light wounds. Didn't much use skills or magic. Didn't scout ahead because didn't want to get out of range of melee/caster support.

6. Human scout/rogue
Strengths: Lots of skill points.
Weaknesses: Worst stats, without the Complete Scoundrel feat scouts and rogues synergize horrifically. Didn't scout ahead because didn't want to get out of range of melee/caster support.

Lessons learned:
1. Charge monkey builds can be very powerful if the DM doesn't do things to limit them. A paladin/barbarian/fighter with a stack of splat books can be great at one hit killing things with charges with the right combination of feats. Badly lacking in flexibility though...
2. Blaster mages aren't very good.
3. The power of summoners depends MASSIVELY on wether they get to ambush the enemy or not. They are either very powerful or rather weak depending on this.
4. It is important to have a party Listen/Spotter. Most parties have at least one character with great move silent/hide and a party face but a lot of parties I've seen don't have any really good Listen/Spotters, which can be very very useful.
5. In a hack and slash campaign skill monkeys aren't too useful, especially if they don't go out of their way to use their skills. The only effective skill monkeys I've seen are always looking for opportunities to unlevel the playing field with smart skill use, just being passive and waiting until obvious opportunities to come up will gimp your character.
6. Bad multiclass combinations suck worse than monks. In real play they are a very common case of suckage.
7. I don't like rolling for stats.
8. Having a lot of ranks in Skill Focus (Indimidate) and a Hat of Disguise is FUN.
9. Most people don't play batman casters or CODzilla divine casters, and because of this the classes are more balanced in practice than in theory.
10. Being able to go nova is more important that being able to go for the long haul, the faster you kill critters the less of them can hurt you the next round.
11. Outcast champion and alienist are fun PrCs.

[tobian]

All righty then:

*We generally have more city styled adventures as opposed to dungeon style if that explains anything*

1. Half-Elf Wizard 5/Dragonmarked Heir 4/Artificer 1
Strengths: He, believe it or not, was the "face" of the party 85% of the time. He generally could always contribute to a fight in some form or another, be it scrolls or his dragonmark of storm.
Weaknesses: He was too spread out IMO. He could only just cast level 3 wizard spells if I remember correctly. At his ECL, a full wizard would be at level 5 spells. He did have a purpose for this rampant multi-classing, though I never got to see the full effect of it.

2. Warmage 7/Wizard 1/Ultimate Magus 2 (our DM let him switch/reverse the pre-reqs to level 1 prepared and level 2 spontaneous)
Strengths: He was a blaster. He actually was very good at it too; he generally got over half the kills. He is the one reason I have yet to give up completely on blasters.
Weaknesses: If it was not blasting, there was not a whole lot he could do.

3. Bard 6/Mindbender 1/+3 Level Adjustment (Half-dragon)
Strengths: He was actually the tank/backup caster. He had an outrageous strength score and great other ability scores(everything had a positive modifier), so he filled an important niche of when someone had to go toe to toe with a monster. He was the charmer/illusionist and backup healer as well.
Weaknesses: He was playing a roll that he should of used another class for; he would have made a great tank-he loved magic though, so I dunno.

4. Druid 10
Strengths: He had the highest caster level of the group. Occasionally wildshape was useful.
Weaknesses: Notice the lack of strengths. To be honest, he didn't really know all the details to the class-I think if he had chosen a simpler class he would have done much better.

So, in conclusion:

• It would help if everyone knew what they wanted to do/how their classes worked before they started to play.
• Charming classes really need school focuses, especially if they do not have heighten spell-the bard had some serious issues charming at times despite a +5 Cha modifier.
• As said in post above, rampant multi-classing is not always a good thing-it is always interesting though...
• If the bard can do 2d6+14 on a standard attack, something is wrong
• Blasting magic sometimes works spectacularly.
• It is possible to get by without a dedicated healer if there are two secondary healers.
• By god, we all sucked at spot and listen checks for a while there. Always have a spotter/listener.
• Hilarity does indeed ensue when we run from the authorities.

A cookie to whoever can figure which character I played!

[kjones]

My two cents.

Party 1 (ECL ~9)

1. Elven Rogue/Shadowdancer
Strengths: Rockin' skillmonkey. Hide in plain sight flat out wins.
Weaknesses: Too squishy for melee combat meant not quite enough sneak attacks to be really effective in combat. He would either jump in and out of combat with tumble and a rapid change of opponents whenever possible, but he generally would refuse to go face-to-face unless the tank could soak up the hurt. He was usually relegated to longbow duty, and he never took Precise Shot... Also, my campaign has, as of late, involved a lot of constructs and undead, so he's been SOL.

2. Human Cleric, Death Domain
Strengths: Healbot, various other buff spells, high AC
Weaknesses: Character was new to playing a full spellcaster; generally let the rest of the party bully him into burning all his spells on healing. Didn't put enough into Strength, so sucked eggs in melee despite his AC and had constant encumberance issues. Also, the only player in the party with a move speed of less than 20, which sucks constantly. Didn't know how to properly buff himself for combat. "CodZilla? But I suck at fighting!"
Also, it's hardly fair to fault him for this, but this player had some of the worst luck I've ever seen. He consistently rolled well on inconsequential matters, but whenever it came down to the wire, he was lucky to escape with his life. It was so bad, we even tested his dice to see if they were fair. (They were.)

3. Half-Elf Wizard
Strengths: Wizard.
Weaknesses: Overcome by shinyness of being a blaster mage. Started figuring it out eventually, but still can't resist throwing around fireballs and magic missiles. Despised metamagic feats. Too reliant on familiar; after I almost killed it a few times, he learned his lesson.

4. Elven Ranger/Deepwood Sniper (houseruled from a 3.0 PrC)
Strengths: Excellent ranged attack, especially once he got a Holy Longbow. Rapid Shot and Multishot consistently effective. Good secondary skillmonkey.
Weaknesses: Player was a real coward, so even though he was reasonably effective in melee and had one of the better magical swords in the party, he rarely used it. Consistently bolo'ed his HP rolls; the wizard had more HP than him, seriously. Finally, ranged attacks just don't do that much damage. And, for whatever ridiculous reason, NEVER TOOK PRECISE SHOT. CONSTANTLY reminding him of the -4 penalty for firing into melee. He doesn't seem to care.

5. Human Barbarian/Fighter
Strengths: Solid meatshield, everything a Greataxe-wielding barbarian should be.
Weaknesses: Only person with more than 60 HP in a party of 6. He soaks up a LOT of damage, and is one of the only characters to have died. Player preferred ranged attacks for a time, but came to his senses eventually. Terrible Will save always causing trouble.

6. Human Ninja
Strengths: Good secondary skillmonkey, Ghost Step often comes in handy.
Weaknesses: Who needs a secondary skillmonkey? Too much overlap with the rogue. The MAD of ninjas, combined with the competition for powerful ranged weapons in this party, really hit him hard. He's not that hot in ranged combat, and even worse in melee, PLUS he consistently bolo'ed his HP rolls and so has something like 21 HP at level 7. Oh yeah, he's also below party level, so it's not quite a fair comparison. Player thinks it's awesome to have all sorts of ninja weapons, regardless of the fact that they're all mundane, and shuriken do pitiful damage.

Ranked by Power (estimate):
Wizard
Barbarian
Ranger
Cleric
Rogue
Ninja

Party 2 (ECL ~3)

1. Human Fighter
Strengths: 18 Strength + 2 handed weapon + Power Attack. With his spear, that's 1d8 + 6 right off the bat. Always impressive.
Weaknesses: Low AC, mediocre HP (despite an 18 Con), general lack of options available to a fighter.

2. Human Ranger
Strengths: High AC, Improved Bull Rush (!), effective in both ranged and melee, good skills
Weaknesses: Player indecisive between TWF and ranged. High AC partially due to shield. Mediocre stats (14 Str, 14 Dex)

3. Human Druid
Strengths: Druid. Wolf companion rules the schoolhouse, as does Summon Nature's Ally.
Weaknesses: Thought it would be awesome to take TWF with the quarterstaff he wields constantly as he wades into melee combat.

4. Human Favored Soul
Strengths: Lesser Vigor rocks the casbah as far as healing is concerned. Good AC. Other useful spells.
Weaknesses: Prefers ranged combat, which he sucks at. Very limited spell selection. Needs to take skills that take advantage of Cha.

5. Gnome Rogue
Strengths: Good attack bonuses, good AC, useful skills, player has a useful fixation on alchemy.
Weaknesses: Low move is a pain when trying to flank. Squishiness often necessitates avoiding melee combat. Low damage, even with Sneak Attack, due to strength and small weapons. Player is a coward. Player thinks it is awesome to use arrows as improvised daggers (after she used a silver one on a vampire.)

6. Human Swashbuckler
Strengths: Decent TWF, party face with good Cha, acrobatic skills (Balance, Tumble, Jump) come in handy, good AC, mobile
Weaknesses: TWF kind of sucks. Swashbuckler kind of sucks. Mediocre stats, with a dash of MAD (mostly the player's fault.)

Ranked by Power:
Druid
Fighter
Ranger
Favored Soul
Swashbuckler
Rogue

I'd be interested as to how people's personal experiences with relative power levels compare to the accepted wisdom on these matters. I'm well aware of the mathematical inferiority of a VoP monk, but some will insist that the VoP monk was the strongest character in their game, and they may not be wrong.

[Zel]

All righty then:


2. Warmage 7/Wizard 1/Ultimate Magus 2 (our DM let him switch/reverse the pre-reqs to level 1 prepared and level 2 spontaneous)
Strengths: He was a blaster. He actually was very good at it too; he generally got over half the kills. He is the one reason I have yet to give up completely on blasters.
Weaknesses: If it was not blasting, there was not a whole lot he could do.


A cookie to whoever can figure which character I played!

Door #2, Door #2!

[MeklorIlavator]

Current Party(start at level 10, continue till level 13):
Incarnum 10(character changed)
Strengths-Good HP(+5 Con), High AC, nifty effects
Weakness-Low Bab, low damage overall due to no power attack
Synopsis: This is the first I ever saw of incarnum, and frankly I was a bit unimpressed. This was supposed to be our tank, but in fact he only absorbed damage from a couple of fireballs, and thus was unable to block the damage. His fireburst ability was interesting, but largely unused. Did manage to break all the bones of a non-hostile gnome NPC with an intimidate check(he looked like a marut was his justification).

Swashbuckler(10-13):
Strengths: Second highest hp. Good BaB, decent optimization within build. Good mind behind the character(with stats to let him use it). Innovative. Highest ac. High Mobility. Usefull skills.
Weakness: Pure Swashbuckler. TWF. Money starved
Synopsis: The guy has a great backstory, and optimized the class pretty well. He didn’t design himself as a tank, but he fills the spot pretty well. The Loot-starved comes from only getting 3000gp over 2 levels, though the DM did give us some more stuff lately, so he coming back. It more of a problem for him, due to paying for 2 weapons. Also, the last dungeon involved High Ac, DR, Crit immune foes, so he wasn’t that effective(in that dungeon, but the DM recognized this, and is planning to account for it). He’s half the party face, due to taking ranks in diplomacy.

Sorcerer(10-13):
Strengths: Arcane magic. Somewhat diverse spells. ½ face. Took Leadership for a skillmonkey.
Weakness:Blaster focused, spells known could be more diverse. Fragile(Low Ac, Low HP)
Synopsis: He’s a playboy .The skillmonkey isn’t that great, but has been useful. He’s the only one to die(beside the incarnte, but that’s because the player wanted to switch), due to a Wail of the Banshee trap, but the trap was guarding enough Diamond dust to resurrect him, and we were able to get a better deal because of going to manifest( Ghostwalk). His bluff is ridiculously high( he even to skill focus), which allowed him to bluff a red dragon of indeterminate age that he was a chose of tiamat(saved my character, and lead to one of the best session endings ever).

Wizard(11):
Strength: This guy was almost copied completely from TLN guide, so he’s strong. Took a couple cheesy spells. He’s warforged.
Weaknesses: DM Fiat. Grating personality.
Synopsis: This guy is ridiculous in many ways. He’s a Con specialist, PHB 2 variant, banned schools unknown (I can’t really remember), though probably enchantment and Illusion. The DM Fiat part was from using a maximized shivering touch on a BBEG. I had warned both the DM and the Player, but they didn’t listen, so after the DM found out what it did he rewound time till the beginning of the players turn, and took away the spell. The Character is extremely grating, and for some reason insulted and threatened a king in his court. The DM threatened with level 20 paladins if things got ugly, and the character new the party would support the King, so he backed down. He was still thrown in jail, which the party did not protest, and even suggested due to his behavior.

Cleric/Warlock/Eldrich Disiple(10-13):
Strengths: Touch Attacks. Eldrich Glaive. Cleric casting. Good at healing. Strong Domain(Travel). Lucky. Good saves. Killer Initiative.
Weakness: Low Ac. Extremely Magical. Non full cleric casting. Weak Domain(Protection).Mediocre HP. Often Targeted. Bad feat choice.
Synopsis: This character, like the Swashbuckler, is optimized within his build. The Touch attacks are easy to make, and eldritch glaive allows him to full attack. Multiclassing has given him good saves, and unusual abilities(Healing essence+Eldrich Glaive+Full Attack= 15d6 damage healed.). Has been lucky in choosing invocations(got the cold elemental essence before the last dungeon, which contained fire elementals). His cleric casting, while not as good as a full cleric, allows him to become Codzilla, though not often. Also, he often goes first in battle( at least among the players), though this is slightly bad because he often becomes a nice target. He has barely survived a vampire’s two flame strikes and a Cleric/duskblades Harm/arcane channeling combo.Note: His effectiveness relies on magical attacks, and due to reduced caster levels is vulnerable to SR, and that he has 2 feats that are completely worthless, but that this is also not a feat reliant character.

Ranked:
The Swashbuckler/The Eldirch disciple
The Wizard
Sorcerer
The Incarnate

The Swashbuckler and Eldirch Disciple tie for first due to the fact that both are good at what they do, the only thing keeping the Swashbuckler from dominating is the lack of enemies that he can reliably fight. The Wizard loses the top spot because his personality caused huge problems, especially with established authorities. The Sorceror is strong, but has not been as effective as either of the others. The incarnate never really had a chance, as he saw too little play, and the player got bored with him due to unmet expectation. I will say that, besides the wizard, no one looks to dominate the group, as we are all at relatively the same level of optimization. Also, I am the Eldrich disciple, and i can say that if I had had an hour to make him, he would have had more appropriate feats.

[MeklorIlavator]

I don't think you can do it, IIRC warlocks always need a standard action to do their stuff. Is Eldrich Glaive an exception to that?

Healing essence is a swift action to activate, and then you use the standard warlock rules to add a shape and essence invocation together. I haven't seen anything outlawing it in eldrich glaive. It is limited to turn attempts per day, so it has limits.

[The_Werebear]

Here's my group's last party.

1. The Necromancer (Wizard 5/ Pale Master 8)
Strengths: 12th Level Arcane Casting, Surprisingly tough, Huge Undead Thugs, Great spell selection.
Weaknesses: Inexperience of the Player, the Other Players, poor item selection.
Overall, a very solid character. Between Evard's Black Tentacles, Enervation, and the BoVD spell that Rips someone's arm off and beats them with it, she provided a lot firepower. The undead pets (A Zombie and Skeleton Hill Giants) did massive amounts of damage and ended up tanking very well, especially with Libris Mortis undead enhancing feats. However, the player was rather new, and didn't like buffing, even though Haste saved the party's life at several points once it was hinted enough that it should be cast. Also, being new, the player was occasionally taken advantage of, giving up good items to characters who needed it less.

2. The Sniper (Factotum/Combat Rogue 13)
Strengths: Great Archer, Huge amount of feats, Insane initiative, smattering of nearly every ability, player experience, more wealth than the rest of the party, effectively invisible.
Weaknesses: Fragile, no melee ability.
This guy was effective due to knowing every rule and loophole forwards and backwards. Despite not getting sneak attack, he managed to put forward a respectable 15 damage per arrow (and three arrows a round) with high accuracy. He almost always went first (+10 initiative). Whenever a skill needed to be used, he was on top of it. Also, this guy was able to pull 50+ hide checks due to both luck and a very high modifier. However, he was the only character to require a divine intervention (Read: DM is personally not killing you just this once) because he got too close to an angry hill giant with only a bow.

3. The Cleric (Cleric 13)
Strengths: Full Cleric Casting, High AC, High HP, very good Spot/Listen
Weaknesses: Fixation on Blasting, Little interest in melee combat, mediocre spell selection.
The Cleric was near impossible to kill, but that is really all that can be said. With a strength score of only 10, she wasn't doing much in the melee department. As said before, her spell selection was only average, with lots of Flame Strikes and random, semi combat buffs (A spell that Makes a bridge for five rounds? Magic Vestment?) which made her less than CoDzilla. However, she was a very good healer, and did a lot with that. Also, she was one of the few people with good senses.

4. The Tripper/Slayer/Unholy Monster of an XP penalty (Ranger 3/Rogue 1/ Psywar 6/ Slayer 3)
Strengths: Solid Tripping Build, Good AC.
Weakness: Inability to do anything but trip, poor focus classwise, horrible luck, Spiked Chain fighting.
This is a failed attempt to be a Munchkin. This character could trip practically anything, but dealt relatively poor damage, had a poor BaB, low HP, and couldn't do anything after they fell over. To top it all off, he couldn't roll well in combat ever. He failed saves against spell after spell, got hit more than others despite his AC, and was near death more often than anyone else.

Power Order
1- Factotum Rogue- He was always ready for everything, and often simply had the items to handle things even before the spellcaster unloaded.
2- Necromancer- A solid character, but a new player. While she did very well, practice makes perfect.
3- Cleric- Poor optimization, but good survivability and excellent healing still allowed her to be very useful.
4- Thingy- Poor build and focus, not to mention bad luck, made this character fall leaps and bounds behind the others.

Things Learned

• Have some sort of focus or plan when you start to multiclass. Otherwise, it just won't work that well.
• If you are playing a cleric, healing helps. To really shine though, you must realize you are a warrior as well as a spellcaster, not solely the latter.
• Player experience makes most of the difference. If the Necromancer had been more experience, she would have outshined the Rogue. However, he superior experience allowed him to pull ahead, simply because he was ready for more things than she was.
• When playing a spellcaster, buff your allies as much as you debuff your enemies.
• Large sized undead help, unless you need to remain inconspicous, hide, or fit through a tight space.

[earlblue]

Heh...

Try this:

It doesn't matter what you or your friends play, or created. As long as they are familiar with what they have created, and put a lot of effort into thinking what they can do with their character.

Spot, and listen to what the rest is doing. In a fight, coordinate with your friends to bring out the best of each class. Again, it doesn't matter what everyone has created. Each class have its own good and bad stuff. You have heard it often said that 'teamwork' is the key to success, but here we often hear about who has created what. We only hear about what each has created, and not how the individual creation can come together to become a bigger, better team.

Don't direct the others. Let them decide what each character wants to do. Then the less experience will learn, and more often then not, even the more exerience will gain something. There will always be 'oops' and 'shoot! i could have done better!' and the game is more fun that way.

In practice, most character creation talk about on many forums is possible but IMPROBABLE. While game mechanics allow to create a character with this class and then enter into a PrC... in real games it just doesn't work that way. Look at the requirements of any PrC and you will know that becoming one is mostly circumstancial. If the circumstances do not permit, you cannot enter into the PrC.

For example, you want to become a ninja, but do the ninja clans want you? You need to find a ninja clan who will accept you, but how does the clan you are seeking look at your 'searching' activities? Are you hunting them?

I do start off my players giving them advance levels, and they do come with all sorts of combination. But ask yourself this one question: If your character really started his/her character at level 1, what are the chances during a great long series of game will your character really end up with the classes you want? Not to mentioned whether the PrC actually exist in your DM's world? And if they do exists, will the encounters be favorable so that you can actually join a PrC? And that you can actually join another? A blackguard/necromancers sounds ok until the DM decides that there is actually a big war between all the blackguards in the world and all the necromancers... where would you be?

So we take all these source books, and we pick and choose what we think will combine into a 'powerful' character... again, I say it is possible, but only in theory.

In practice... yeah, right!

O'BeQuiet UWannabe.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Heh...

Try this:

It doesn't matter what you or your friends play, or created. As long as they are familiar with what they have created, and put a lot of effort into thinking what they can do with their character.

Not so much. Exhibit A: the Samurai.

Spot, and listen to what the rest is doing. In a fight, coordinate with your friends to bring out the best of each class. Again, it doesn't matter what everyone has created. Each class have its own good and bad stuff. You have heard it often said that 'teamwork' is the key to success, but here we often hear about who has created what. We only hear about what each has created, and not how the individual creation can come together to become a bigger, better team.

It doesn't matter what everyone has created? But what everyone has created determines what you can do with teamwork. If your party mage is a Warmage, you're not going to be flying, teamwork or not. How good each member is at what also determines what teamwork can do. This isn't a children's story--"working together" isn't something that overcomes everything.

In practice, most character creation talk about on many forums is possible but IMPROBABLE. While game mechanics allow to create a character with this class and then enter into a PrC... in real games it just doesn't work that way. Look at the requirements of any PrC and you will know that becoming one is mostly circumstancial. If the circumstances do not permit, you cannot enter into the PrC.

Why is it improbably? Many, many prestige classes have no attached organization, no roleplaying prerequisites. If a wizard wishes to become a Fatespinner, he does not need to do anything beyond have Profession(Gambler) ranks, and a cleric of Pelor is all set to get into Radiant Servant of Pelor.

For example, you want to become a ninja, but do the ninja clans want you? You need to find a ninja clan who will accept you, but how does the clan you are seeking look at your 'searching' activities? Are you hunting them?

Ninja is not a prestige class, it's a base class... and you're confusing the Ninja class with the ninja "profession". You can be a ninja without having Ninja levels, and you can have Ninja levels without being a Ninja.

I do start off my players giving them advance levels, and they do come with all sorts of combination. But ask yourself this one question: If your character really started his/her character at level 1, what are the chances during a great long series of game will your character really end up with the classes you want? Not to mentioned whether the PrC actually exist in your DM's world? And if they do exists, will the encounters be favorable so that you can actually join a PrC? And that you can actually join another? A blackguard/necromancers sounds ok until the DM decides that there is actually a big war between all the blackguards in the world and all the necromancers... where would you be?

Allowed sources and the general nature of the campaign world are generally--essentially always, in my experience--things worked out beforehand. There's a reason for this. If you've been taking the prerequisite feats for Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and the DM announces the class doesn't exist, sorry! even though he allowed the Complete Arcane beforehand, that's a pretty jerky thing to do.
And prerequisites are the reason you should plan a character out beforehand.

So we take all these source books, and we pick and choose what we think will combine into a 'powerful' character... again, I say it is possible, but only in theory.

In practice... yeah, right!

O'BeQuiet UWannabe.

You haven't made a very good point. For one thing, few powerful builds are affected by anything you describe. Druid 20 taking Natural Spell is the most famous "easy power" character; Wizard/Archmage is simple (and what is going to stop your wizard from becoming an Archmage? He does not have to learn the techniques from anyone), and even something like Wizard/Geometer/Fatespinner/Archmage is completely free of any campaign restrictions that do not affect a plain Wizard.

Even characters that take many different classes and prestige classes are often not reliant on campaign details.

[Aquillion]

One of the things I'm seeing in a lot of these threads is that, often, the way a player plays their character is more of a problem than the actual build. Take the Sorcerer / Alienist build from the top -- the OP said they had a lot of problems when they didn't get enough chance to summon, but the build was still a full caster, and must have had other spells, which they ought to have been able to use just as well as a regular wizard (this is why Alienist is a decent PRC, even though summoning isn't usually the greatest strategy for arcane casters.) With the skill-monkey that was described, it's even more obvious.

There are some really awful builds you can make, but for the most part, just having an action in combat is enough to contribute at least a little bit... there are very few builds that can really do nothing. It sounds like the real deadweights weren't people with bad builds, but people who just really didn't know how to contribute effectively with what they had.


With that said...

So we take all these source books, and we pick and choose what we think will combine into a 'powerful' character... again, I say it is possible, but only in theory.

In practice... yeah, right!

Wizard 20 only exists in theory? Druid 20 with Natural Spell only exists in theory?

Most of the 'fancy' builds people post here are actually less powerful than those. There are some full-progression PRCs wizards can use to get some really nice abilities, but when you get right down to it, even the advantages given by IotSV are nothing compared to what you can do with full spellcasting; I guarentee that if that PRC cost you even a single caster level, it would be considered only decent at best, and if it cost you more than that it would be considered pretty weak.

In a way, this ties in to what I was saying above... lots of people don't realize quite how overpowered wizards, druids, and clerics can be, since their wizards are blaster/summoners, their clerics are healbots, their druids usually forget that they have Wild Shape... whatever. It doesn't take any fancy combination of feats or PRCs or spells or anything; just using the core spells intelligently, as they're written, can be extremely powerful.

[earlblue]

Heh... nothing is really for free... and that most DM probably don't really read enough or think too much to see how the source books affect his/her game, or consider whether his/her world want to take in all that stuff.

You start off with (probably) the first 3 books - PHB, DMG and monster manual, and you can actually do a game from there. Then people start to say, 'hey! that book looks cool. I want to use that!' - not really considering how the PrC comes about or how the books can impact on their world.

So. It is free, huh?

Ever really think about the DnD world? I start of with a fighter - ya! the most basic of classes. I automatically, at some mysterious point of time, instinctively knows how to wield a sword, wear armor. Or I suddenly know how to read a spellbook (wizards) or I can suddenly develope enough skill to cast spell (sorcerer). or Gods like me so much, they give me spells to play with (Clerics).

If you have done 2e, and started with 'Zero' level character... then you tell me how 'free' everything is.

But we don't normally think about that. We have to start somewhere, and hey presto, I'm a 1st level wizard or fighter or something. Or I'm a 10 Wizard/ 20 Dm/ 30 Jerk.

And in real life, I can really cast spells...

If your DM is really good, he should have keep track of how many PrC he allows, and how they come about in the first place. I'm not really good. I do not keep track of how many there is. I'm sure there are websites for that. But I do keep track of what PrC my players have. On certain games, I do disallow certain combinations, simply because I deem it unlikely to have such combo.

If you can remember the days where 3e just started, it was just PHB, DMG and Monster manual. There is no fatespinners or what nots... so how does these PrC comes about? They do not suddenly spring into life. They simply do not exist. Unfortunatel (for players), as DM, it is their perogative (nothing to do with Jerkyness) to allow or disallow books, whether in entirely or in parts.

Yes, Not all PrC comes with organizations. I use the Ninja as an example. But if your idea of PrC is something that just appear out of nothing, or is free for the taking... it is hardly prestigious, now is it? Abd yes, I'm not saying that you cannot belong to more then 1... but not likely. Hence Improbable. (Really, I am just using examples here. the Ninja, for all you know, IS a PrC in my world, and in one of my source book, written by me. Yes, I AM being arrogant here)

All this, of course, is in practice. In theory, what I have just said doesn't really make sense. Do more practice. Play more often. You will see what I mean (and yes, I AM being patronizing).

O'BeQuiet Uwaanabe.

[Jack Mann]

In 3rd edition, you explicitly do automatically learn to cast spells with a single level of wizard, for free. You also get a free spellbook with a number of spells. No cost. If you then take a level of rogue, you automatically learn to find traps. There is no cost to this by the RAW. Anything else is a variant at best or a house rule. It is not a part of the basic rules.

There is no limit on how many prestige classes you can take, other than what your DM will allow. Yes, a DM can refuse to let you take a prestige class, but by default, you're able to take any prestige class you qualify for. Unless it has a prerequisite marked Special, then any decision to take it is entirely your own. It's no more difficult, from an in-character standpoint, to take a prestige class than it is to take a feat. If the DM allows it, then by the RAW, you can take it. And most DMs, I think you'll find, are pretty lenient about prestige classes.

The fact that you don't run your games the same way has no bearing on the actual rules. Nor does this make you special and precious. Your games are in no way superior because you add more accounting to your games and limit your players' options more severely.

And Earl? Being patronizing is a bad thing. Especially when you're wrong.

[Rachel Lorelei]

Heh... nothing is really for free... and that most DM probably don't really read enough or think too much to see how the source books affect his/her game, or consider whether his/her world want to take in all that stuff.

That's an amazingly sweeping conclusion without evidence.
My last D&D DM knew most sourcebooks pretty dang well. As for "how the world takes in all that stuff", you're very much overthinking: flavor can be changed, and what's more, the DM only needs to adjust for things that actually affect the world. If I'm a Fatespinner, that's an ability I have; it doesn't influence the DM's world in any way. If I'm an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and can produce veils, that's an ability I developed (I could well be unique!) and it doesn't have to affect the world in any way, any more than any of the other magical abilities spellcasters and creatures have. And don't forget--only what you're using has to be potentially incorporated. If I use one class from the Complete Arcane, the DM doesn't need to add everything into the book into his world.
In fact, as I said above, he doesn't need to add anything into his world.

You start off with (probably) the first 3 books - PHB, DMG and monster manual, and you can actually do a game from there. Then people start to say, 'hey! that book looks cool. I want to use that!' - not really considering how the PrC comes about or how the books can impact on their world.

It's a prestige class. Your wizard practices doing stuff, and then she can do other stuff. Entering it is hardly a big deal.
Also, many, many groups use far more books than the first three.

Ever really think about the DnD world? I start of with a fighter - ya! the most basic of classes. I automatically, at some mysterious point of time, instinctively knows how to wield a sword, wear armor. Or I suddenly know how to read a spellbook (wizards) or I can suddenly develope enough skill to cast spell (sorcerer). or Gods like me so much, they give me spells to play with (Clerics).

There's something called "off-screen" and "retcon". But you don't have to retcon it. If I want to make a fighter/wizard, then my fighter can be studying magic from books during down-time. If I want to make a fighter/sorcerer/cleric (although why on earth would I?) then I just roleplay the character as pious and then have him spontaneously manifest sorcerous abilities (since sorcery is inborn).

But we don't normally think about that. We have to start somewhere, and hey presto, I'm a 1st level wizard or fighter or something. Or I'm a 10 Wizard/ 20 Dm/ 30 Jerk.

And in real life, I can really cast spells...

Not all games start at level 1.
In fact, starting at level 1 is a pretty bad idea. Level 1 is fairly terrible, and always starting at it gets very very old.

If your DM is really good, he should have keep track of how many PrC he allows, and how they come about in the first place. I'm not really good. I do not keep track of how many there is. I'm sure there are websites for that. But I do keep track of what PrC my players have. On certain games, I do disallow certain combinations, simply because I deem it unlikely to have such combo.

A prestige class is a class. They're game rules, they're not presences in the campaign world (except when they're linked to them--and even then, you can change the flavor), although you can create an organization whose members typically take a certain prestige class.

If you can remember the days where 3e just started, it was just PHB, DMG and Monster manual. There is no fatespinners or what nots... so how does these PrC comes about? They do not suddenly spring into life. They simply do not exist. Unfortunatel (for players), as DM, it is their perogative (nothing to do with Jerkyness) to allow or disallow books, whether in entirely or in parts.

If a book is added to play, the DM can ret-con. There've been fatespinners all along! Or maybe you're the first to develop such abilities. Or maybe the abilities are flavored as something else.
If a new campaign is starting, it has nothing to do with "back when we only had three books".

Yes, Not all PrC comes with organizations. I use the Ninja as an example. But if your idea of PrC is something that just appear out of nothing, or is free for the taking... it is hardly prestigious, now is it? Abd yes, I'm not saying that you cannot belong to more then 1... but not likely. Hence Improbable. (Really, I am just using examples here. the Ninja, for all you know, IS a PrC in my world, and in one of my source book, written by me. Yes, I AM being arrogant here)

"Presitge" class is a misnomer. There's hundreds of them printed, many so short you could even have three five-level ones... all without much "flavor" influence on your character.
I'm not sure what you're saying, here. A player can't expect to be able to take the Ninja PrC? Then they know that ahead of time, and can plan to be something you allow. If your players aren't guaranteed to get into any prestige class, even if it's from a source you use, they have the prerequisites, and there is no "Special:", then you're being kind of a jerk, unless you warned them ahead of time... because, hey, prestige classes have prerequisites. Someone taking three feats under the impression that their character will become an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is getting screwed over if you say "no, sorry, your character has to join an organization if you take that class, and they don't like you." You're making a rule up you should've told them about, and you should've either removed the feats, or allow them to redo their feats after.

All this, of course, is in practice. In theory, what I have just said doesn't really make sense. Do more practice. Play more often. You will see what I mean

It doesn't make sense because it's wrong. You know something? Your experience and how you run the campaign is pretty much irrelevant, since it doesn't affect anyone beyond you and your players.
I've been playing for years, thanks, and what you describe in no way matches up with the reality of my games. When the people I play with ban something, it's because it's unbalanced, or because of the lack of access of the book... not because they don't want to deal with the implications (which don't really exist) of someone who can put up colored veils that do things in their setting.

Not everyone's gaming experience is the same as yours. The way you do things is not the way most people do things. And even if it were, it doesn't make everyone equal power-wise. If I play a Druid in your game, do I really need to justify going from Druid 1 to Druid Whatever? I just need to play the character.
And if I play it "right", I will be far more powerful than the person playing the Fighter or the Monk.
Funny how, in practice, playing a druid would be just as powerful as it seems.

(and yes, I AM being patronizing).

If you know that, WHY ARE YOU DOING IT? Don't.

[Zincorium]

Honestly, I have to agree with the idea that knowing what to do with the character you have makes more difference than any theoretical amount of power. In the longest campaign (forgotten realms + homebrew) I've played recently, the characters were, in order of power:

1. Elven cleric, eventually of Kossuth. The woman who played the cleric was experienced but not into optimizing. However, in combination with being the highest level character by a level or more, the sheer power of many of the cleric spells made her by far the most capable character. Healing was secondary to columns of flame descending from the ceiling to decimate our enemies.

2. Dwarven barbarian/battlerager/bear warrior. Me. The classes were chosen mainly for flavor/allowing me to growl at people. However, I optimized for being a damage sponge, and knew how to draw attention, and so had a solid place in the group. With full buffing, the rest of the group decided I was the most powerful character. I usually did not get buffs, so this wasn't an issue.

3. Druid. Ouch. Even with the shapeshifting variant, being a brand new player, and being the lowest level character, this guy owned hard. At the end, I'd place him over me.

4. Rogue/werewolf. Dex monkey, TWF, fairly standard. Oh, and chaotic evil in a good group. Damn that bluff skill...

5. Dwarven monk. Ended up fairly solid, but there is only so much you can do with a monk. Fun to RP with, flanked well with the rogue.

6. Sorceror/wizard. Focused on blasting initially, decided to go to ultimate magus after 11 levels as a sorceror. 14's in both intelligence and charisma. Had no idea there was such a thing as casting defensively. Spellfire wielder with an 8 constitution. Liked getting into melee combat. Spent all skill points on cross-class knowledges. If he hadn't taken over DMing from another guy in the group, there would have been problems keeping him alive. As it was, he experienced a massive surge of competence when he became a DMPC.

7. Bard/ranger/gnoll (gnome, but we had to rely on the reincarnate spell quite a bit at the beginning of the game to keep him alive...). Yeah, this guy wasn't really happy with how his character ended up. Too much spread out over too many areas.


My conclusion? Straight caster classes are dang good. Not having a focus is bad (this has been expressed by others), but what constitutes a focus can vary considerably.

[Freshmeat]

* First campaign (most of us were new to the game, and had little knowledge of feats, class balance, casting statistics, and whatnot)
Level: 3-4

- Human bard (yours truly)
Strengths: Skill monkey, somewhat versatile.
Weaknesses: Spells were greatly lacking. HP sucked. Stats sucked. Combat ability would have been nihil if it weren't for an insane streak of lucky rolls that would last for the entire campaign. Several feats wasted on 'skill feats' (those like diligent, sneaky, deceitful, etc)

In hindsight - Let's get one thing off my chest first: bardic music is even worse than I expected it to be. It's fun to do in a casual game, but tactically it's like taking a 10 on opening a flask of acid with your eye.
I should have devoted more attention to my spells, few though a bard's selection is. Of course, as a bard and with bad stats there wasn't really much I could do in the first place. Then again, here's the rest of the party:

- Half-elf druid
Strengths: Got a very good magical sickle right off the bat, and he had the best healing capabilities of us all. He could summons some insane monsters. He also had a great donkey animal companion.
Weaknesses: Handling the donkey was a pain. Poor stats, poor HP. Melee capabilities were crap, so taking advantage of the sickle was hard. 'The best healing capabilities' often amounted to casting freaking goodberry. Twice.
Had no ranged weapon.

In hindsight - More ranks in handle animal would have been nice, if only because the donkey could take out half the party by itself. A ranged weapon was really a give-away, but somehow the player didn't get it. Still, he ended up as the character that broke the game, because of the summons, which were our superiors in every conceivable way. I'm surprised the DM didn't let them roll a DC25 will save to resist laughing at us, or why the campaign simply wasn't about how they summoned us instead.
God, we sucked badly.

- Human ranger:
Strengths: He was good with a bow and had some decent stats. Secondary melee fighter.
Weaknesses: No animal companion (yet). No spellcasting (yet). Had a ton of sucky rolls, though that's of course just bad luck. Was the secondary melee fighter by virtue of the bard and druid sucking even worse in melee.

In hindsight - A fighter with a bow would have put the entire ranger class to shame, though that's just from a power perspective. Flavor-wise, I prefer rangers.

- Gnome paladin:
Strengths: Imagine a gnome with a greatsword. Why a greatsword? Because every party needs some guy with a greatsword, it's too big a cliché to ignore!
Can you imagine him? A stubby little gnome, laughing and cackling maniacally at his pranks and jokes? Now imagine him owning up every encounter while the rest of the party get excited over killing some low-level mooks.
Yeah, this guy made us feel like the random people superheroes save after uttering a nonsensical catch-phrase such as 'no one will threaten unarmed civilians under my watch! hah!'. Except that well, the rest of the party sort of didn't play along and pretended they actually contributed to the battle.
Meh, high HP, high stats, and several thousands more starting gold, this guy had it all.
Not by any good character building or clever choices, which I would have had no problem with. Just lucky dice. Still, we were thankful for his presence as he saved us from multiple encounters which would have spelled doom for our band of sucky noob-players.
Weaknesses: At the times when HULK SMASH RAWR would have been inappropriate, he didn't really add much to the party.

In hindsight - The DM really shouldn't have loaded him with items that are just way better than the rest of the party.
Obviously.

* Campaign 2 (arcana evolved) [also the best campaign I ever played]:
Level: 5-6

- Mojh Mageblade (yours truly)
[Mojh: lizard humanoids that get +2 to int and -2 to con]
[Mageblade: eldritch knight, hexblade, fighter/wizard, whatever - casts charisma-based]

Strengths: Good stats, good HP. Good spellcasting, though limited. Fantastic athame (magical sword that serves as spellcasting focus). Would have become an unstoppable force of insanity later on.
Weaknesses: 'Later on' never came, bleh. Spellcasting wouldn't have peaked until a few more levels. Melee prowess was still secondary to primary fighters. Other than that, none really.

In hindsight: Sure, if charisma is your casting stat, Mojh make for a pretty bad race, but I felt like playing it, and never regretted it. Other than that, I don't think I would play this character any differently. Spells were chosen carefully, no feat ended up as useless, etc.

- Litorian Unfettered
[Litorian: +2 dex, -2 wis]
[Unfettered: fighter/rogue]

Strenghts: Good HP, good stats. Huge DEX. As such, an insane AC as well. Large number of skills.
Weaknesses: Though he often hit (weapon finesse), he rarely did much damage.

In hindsight - The DM gave him the choice at the start of the campaign, either a +1 enchantment on his armor or his weapon. Going for the high AC theme, he chose the armor. I see two things wrong with this: Even more AC was just overkill; damage would have been the better choice.
Also, why did the DM give him this choice? A +1 weapon >>>>>> a +1 armor. That's not exactly equal. That's a trick question, though (I'm sure) unintentional..

- Verrik Champion
[Verrik: bonus to wisdom and penalty to charisma, though I'm not entirely sure of this]
[Champion: paladin]

Strengths: Good hp and okay stats. Funniest player ever though. His dry humor was fantastic.
Weaknesses: As a paladin, he was too honor-bound to back down, out of a fight, when he was greatly outnumbered at one point. He ended up charging the very definition of an inappropriate level encounter.

In hindsight - Come on! A charge?! Wtf.

Still funny though.

- Faen Witch
[Witch: cast0r yo]
[Faen: Small, tiny, hard to hit, don't know about the bonuses/penalties]

Strenghts: Primary caster, high casting statistic. Good healing powers.
Weaknesses: Low HP, low AC, ran away from several fights and adopted a fairly peaceful approach (though the latter two are roleplaying quirks, of course).

In hindsight - None that I can think of.

- Litorian bear totem warrior
[Totem warrior: mix of ranger and barbarian]
[Litorian: already discussed. Furballs.]

Strenghts: GREATSWORD BOOYA!
Oh, also a ton of strength, good dex, good constitution and the uncanny ability to min/max, to the max!!!
Weaknesses: I'm not kidding when I say that he beat so much face he ended up beating on his own party members when there was no one left to kill.

In hindsight - It's probably a good idea to stop whatever you're doing when the DM tries desperately to come up with deus ex machina interventionts to save the PC you're trying to kill.

[Saph]

Honestly, I have to agree with the idea that knowing what to do with the character you have makes more difference than any theoretical amount of power.

QFT. Player skill and attitude always beats class power. I'd rather have a Samurai played by a really good player than a Druid played by an newbie who thinks it's fun to attack other PCs, any day of the week.

I think caster classes are very strong from levels 5 up, but they also require much more skill to play well than fighters, making them much more variable in power - a good wizard is better than a good fighter, a bad wizard is worse than a bad fighter. Example, my current Forgotten Realms party:

• Wizard (enchanter) 7/Loremaster 2, Sun Elf. Focused on non-lethal spells and item creation, but enough of a generalist to be able to do something in any situation. Mostly uses buffs and debuffs.

• Fighter 9, Dwarf. Yer ornery average dwarven tank. Backbone of the party. Just retired, unfortunately.

• Fighter/Rogue/Assassin (some combination), Moon Elf, ECL 9. Houseruled to N alignment. Mediocre Str and Con. Can do lots of damage, but frail, and pretty much helpless against enemies immune to SA.

• Cleric 5/Doomguide 4, Human. CoDzilla. Cheeses character out as much as possible, though the DM's banned DMM/Persistent Spell. Dies frequently. The all-rounder of the party.

• Wizard (evoker) 8, Uldra (+1 LA). Blaster, specialises in cold spells. Tends to spend most battles protecting himself first with invisibility/flight spells, and doesn't do much damage on the rare occasions he uses attack spells. Just retired.

• Bard 9, Human. Standard optimised bard, going for Sublime Chord. Has a total Inspire Courage bonus of +3, lasting for 10 rounds, which is helpful, but can't do that much else.

• Ranger 9, Moon Elf. Standard archery-optimised ranger, with a weapon augment crystal and every one of the good archery feats, including Greater Manyshot. Surprisingly powerful, given that she's played by a newbie.

The power rankings would be something like:

1. Wizard (enchanter) - variety of Save-or-Lose and utility spells.
2. Fighter - the most consistent damage-dealer and damage-soaker.
3. Cleric - most versatile, secondary tank.
4. Ranger - second most consistent damage-dealer, good skills.
5. Rogue/Assassin - can hit hard, but dies easily.
6. Bard - Good Inspire Courage, nothing else.
7. Wizard (evoker) - Carried by the rest of the party.

This is what I meant about spellcasters being more variable in power: the two wizards are at the top and the bottom of the effectiveness list.

- Saph

[Swooper]

This is a group played from level 1 to 27, with the intention from the start of becoming national leaders. The group goes under the nickname "The Nobles" as we were all nobleborn to begin with. I'd like to point out that the DM has no concept of wealth-by-level, XP, CR or appropriate awards. Or most of the rules beyond the basic ones for that matter. To his defence though, he's a heck of a storyteller. Lastly, this was back in 3.0. Anyway, here's the group:

1. Human Transmuter 25/Noble 1/Paladin 1 (Me).
(Barred schools were something like abjuration and enchantment if I recall. Noble is a sucky class from Dragonlance CS, slightly better than Aristocrat. Paladin of this homebrew world's equavalent of Mystra)
Strengths: Wizard. Despite the somewhat strange class makeup, propably the best optimized character in the group. Excellent resources from mid-high levels on, due to being the first of the PCs to advance to a throne by clever negotiations.
Weaknesses: Had the misconception of blasting spells being good. Wasn't built to enter a Prestige class. Few skill points in skills that proved important late in the game, such as Diplomacy and Perform (speech). Goes down fast in melee.

2. Dwarf Fighter ~10/Noble ~3/Dwarven Defender 14.
Strengths: Impossible to kill by conventianal weapons. Between his 300+ HP, high AC, monstrous fort save and DR from Dwarven Defender, there's not much that can take this guy down. I remember him surviving someone slitting his throat in his sleep and jumping off a mountain and merely breaking his legs. Decent damage output from his twin magical weapons. No battlemap, so getting those full attacks is pretty easy, negating his immobility weakness.
Weaknesses: Despite taking Iron Will and the Noble having good will saves, his non-Fort saves aren't very impressive.

3. Halfling Rogue ~10/Fighter ~4/Aristocrat ~3/Hobbit Sheriff 10.
(Hobbit Sheriff is a homebrew PrC we found on the internet somewhere)
Strengths: Diplomacy. This guy can talk anyone and anything into selling their grandmother.
Weaknesses: Just about everything else. The player doesn't care at all about optimization, hence him coming up with horrible multiclass abominations (for lack of a better stronger word) like this one. Doesn't use sneak attack (I'm not sure he realized he had it most of the time...). Didn't fight 'till the mid-high levels when he was forced to. I remember the party meeting a dragon: He got all excited, "Ooooh, a dragon! I've always wanted to fight one of those!" Then hid and watched while me and the dwarf disposed of it.

Power level is the order presented. Although the dwarf and me were pretty evenly matched while adventuring, that incident when he was posessed and rampaging the countryside, where I had to go after him and Hold Monster him into submission pretty much proved that wizard>fighter.

Lessons learned:
# Build arcane casters for PrCs.
# Fighters CAN be formidable if the DM plays their game.
# Multiclassing just serves to make you bad at lots of things unless you know what you're doing.

[Reel On, Love]

I was just in a game that ran from level 1 to like 10 pretty fast--the DM liked throwing too-high-CR encounters, too many encounters, and too many too-high-CR encounters at us.

1. Human Warblade. Rolled himself some great freakin' stats, didn't build too poorly, rolled high HP... the main tank because he had like twice everybody else's freaking HP. Used a greatsword, liked Punishing Stance. AC was crap.

2. Human Warblade/Abjurer/Jade Phoenix Mage. Started out okay, useful because we had no other wizard (but he freaking took Focused Specialist, which put a damper on things), and eventually got to be great thanks to Arcane Wrath and Arcane Strike and buffs.

3. Grey Elf Warmage. Yes, a freaking Warmage. He blew things up, he did less damage any of us, he was more fragile... he died. Remade a Bard/Crusader that did better.

4. Me, a Crusader 1/Cleric 6/Ruby Knight Vindicator. RKV is awesomesauce, but I didn't get to RKV 7 (where the awesome really explodes); still, I was probably the most valuable party member due to Enlarge Person + Reach Weapon + tripping and Iron Guard's Glare (-4 AB to hit any of the others if I was threatening an enemy... and I was), cleric spells, et cetera.

I'd go with me, the Warblade, the JPM, and then the Warmage way behind; eventually the JPM pulled ahead of the Warblade, and could nova once besides his usual.

[Freshmeat]

Hm, I guess I'll recap my previous post and add some more campaigns, though these will be the ones that sort of bled to death after one or two sessions:

Recap (most powerful to weakest):
* campaign 1:
- druid: controlled by the person least interested in D&D, he still was the strongest of us all because of his summons
- paladin: controlled by the person second-least interested in D&D, strong because of good equipment/stats
- ranger: mediocre power level, never really did anything other than shoot his bow, (no spellcasting, no companion, no melee, no item tricks, no abilities etc...)
- bard: knowledge (anything): -10 ranks. Sue me.

Lessons learned:
- Bardic music sucks
- Combat is the mainstay of the game, being useless at those moments gets boring quick, even if you don't mind taking a backseat once in a while. 'Every single time' is just annoying.
- The DM should at least try to foresee possible imbalances, whether only in the current game, or in general. In this campaign the game was pretty much broken by the donkey, the huge price differences of items we received and the summons, which increased our party power by about 10 million.


* campaign 2:
- mageblade: melee prowess that is only slightly lower than other fighters? With just a few buffs and tactical planning (which I love), I could do everything the rest of the party could do. Only better. Could be expected from a fighter/wizard class, especially if there's no heavy arcane caster to provide competitition
- totem warrior: surprising competition from an actual min/maxer rather than just a guy that got lucky HP/stat rolls. He could use a couple of his abilities, chug a consumable item and insta-kill just about everything he met in his path
- unfettered: would make for a good duelist, and was a great tank (because of his high AC)
- champion: nothing bad, though really, nothing real good either
- witch: lack of save-or-lose spells and focus on healing make for a fairly weak character, and we rarely (if ever) had need of the latter)

Lessons learned:
- Creative tactics can overcome a lot of your in-game weaknesses
- A buffed caster can easily outshine any fighting class when it comes down to melee (though that should have been obvious, *coughCoDzillacough*)
- High damage or AC is nice, but there are moments when you're really not just adding much anymore. (going from AC 22 to AC23 is really inferior to improving 1d6 damage to 1d6+1)
- Shouting 'same team!' didn't work in counterstrike against teamkillers. Apparently it doesn't work in D&D either.
- You can't go wrong with improved initiative. Ever.

* campaign 3:
bard, fighter x2 (one of them with a greatsword), monk, paladin

Campaign was too short to really see who was the most powerful.
Lack of an arcane caster left it's mark. Having four dedicated melee classes also meant we had to sell all magical robes and whatnot for half the price (painful) and that dividing melee loot took longer than expected.
Flanking becomes much easier though, once you've got a few extra hands at the frontline.

(other campaigns: other systems, none of them even remotely close to a fantasy setting - therefore, irrelevant to this discussion)

* current campaign
- Monk: When the DM handed out items, he got the best items by far, but I'm all for buffing the monk a bit, so that's not a problem. His AC and damage are okay, but I don't think it'll be long before his power level will diminish greatly.
- Sorcerer: By now I've learned enough of casters (mostly on this forum) that I can easily break the game if I wanted to, but I'm doing my best to prevent exactly that. I'm also trying to prove to the rest of the party that, contrary to CRPG's, blasters do not own the game. Enchantments are the mainstay of my arsenal for now. High charisma and spell focus + greater SF mean my DC's are difficult to resist, and basically every battle I'm in I can completely warp with one or two choice spells. Then I let the rest of the party mop up.
- cleric: Begins to show signs of CoDzilla. Almost completely neglected his wisdom score (13). He's more of a fighter than a cleric, really. Also, he uses a greatsword. Whew, we almost missed the cliché again.
I think his low wisdom will greatly hamper him later on, but then again, I also think that, given our track record, this campaign will die a slow death long before that will become a serious matter.
- rogue: Still the player least interested in D&D and sometimes forgets rules. Will probably, due to sneak attack, move up the power-rank a lot more, between grease, color spray, hold monster, stunning fists and the like.

[Telonius]

In the Age of Worms campaign I'm playing (currently epic level), with handy icon to show party role:

Warforged (mithral body) Fighter/Barbarian
Strengths: Monstrous power attack damage. Very high hitpoints.
Weaknesses: Atrocious will save. Has been reduced to an object several times during the campaign because of int/cha/wis damage. Inexperienced, disorganized player. (The guy actually forgot to give himself feats for nine levels. It was a truly jawdropping moment when the rest of the party discovered this). Low AC. As a frontline combatant in a party without an Artificer, he's a black hole of healing resources.

/ Human Deathless Paladin variant/Cleric
Strengths: Can charge up his bow for a near-automatic volley of arrows. Party buffs, item creation, party buffs, healing, did I mention party buffs?
Weaknesses: Warforged Barbarian. Attention is generally split between getting various people out of trouble. One of the most confusing multiclass character sheets I've ever seen in my life. Nobody but his player can make heads or tails of it.

Human Warblade
Strengths: Regularly puts out hundreds of points of damage per round. High AC. Awesome Eagle cohort with flyby attack.
Weaknesses: Occasionally gets squished by hard-hitting enemies.

Kalashtar Souknife/Soulbow
Strengths: Shard addict. Eyes on his hands and in the back of his head (literally). Excellent scout. Can hit just about anything with his energy weapons. Can never be disarmed. Ultra-high dex. Would always win initiative if it weren't for the stupid Eagle and bad rolls.
Weaknesses: Hits consistently, but doesn't hit big. Extremely squishy.

Shifter Wizard/Rogue/Master of Masks/Arcane Trickster. Played by yours truly.
Strengths: Very high reflex and decent will save. Master of Masks gives access to more spells per day, and more versatility, than possible with a standard wizard. Bluff check in the stratosphere. One of the most enjoyable Party Faces I've ever roleplayed. Extremely powerful items have helped immensely.
Weaknesses: Multiclassed into oblivion, mainly due to trying to fill in party roles when two people quit the campaign in the mid-levels. He was originally intended as a blaster-caster Arcane Trickster to support the party batman Wizard. (With Wizard's departure, my character has been nicknamed "Robin.") Lack of full casting (Master of Masks and Rogue) means he's far behind the spells he should be able to cast now. At level 21, he's casting as Wizard 12. Can't dispel worth anything. Extremely squishy. Low hitpoints. Extra-low AC due to arcane failure considrations. Spent low-level feats on more rogue-y feats like Weapon Finesse when metamagics would have been more useful. Unable to help out much with repair spells on the warforged due to low level and few spell slots available.

Power, in descending order:
Cleric/Paladin.
Warblade.
Soulknife/Soulbow.
Barbarian.
Wizard/Rogue/Master of Masks/Arcane Trickster.


Lessons learned:
1. Planning matters. Always have a backup in case players leave the campaign early.
2. Closely monitor new players. Even if they say they're experienced, they might just be that clueless.
3. Equipment matters. A Vest of the Archmage plus a Staff of the Magi can make even the most incompetent fake-wizard passable.
4. If you have a warforged in the group, you darn well better have a way of healing it. Force him to take a level of Artificer if necessary.
5. Even a character that's atrociously sub-optimal mechanically can be great fun to play.
6. Nickel-and-diming somebody to death is a perfectly good tactic. Our kalashtar has gotten a reputation of kill-stealing, and his energy weapons aren't powerful individually. But he always seems to put in a hundred points of damage or so to each enemy he faces.

[The Glyphstone]

First off - I DM this group, not play in it. They're not the greatest tacticians, and teamwork isn't in anyone's vocabulary, but still all good friends, so it's a lot of fun. Thus, I don't give them anything too bad to fight against or use evil tactics to slaughter them with...

Half-Elf Fighter 7: Generic fighter with Greatsword, Powerful Charge, and Power Attack. Hadn't introduced him to Leap Attack yet. Didn't need to, as he was already the most damaging member of the party. Of course, this was before he got bored, and arranged with me to become a Were-Black Bear at the cost of 5 of his fighter levels...remains to be seen how useful he is now.

Elven Sorcerer 7: Wanted to be a caster, so I gave him a sorcerer instead of a wizard. Works out pretty good, though i usually end up giving him suggestions on what spells to cast. Prefers blasting, and Scorching Ray has worked well on occasions for him. He also has False Gravity and Invisibility, which he's used on occasion for great effect - though, a downright horrible AC when unbuffed.

Human Rogue 6, Gold Dragon Bloodline: Have retconned/retrained his feat choices numerous times as he changes what PrC he wants to go into. A total draconophile (NOT Draconophiliac, you sickos). By bad luck and rolls, has a lower HP than the sorcerer. Could be quite effective if used right, but the teamwork again isn't great, and he has horrible luck with his dice rolls. On the other hand, he's probably the most self-sufficient team member, and loves the Bag of Tricks I gave him to summon flankers. Originally wielded dual Sai, but switched to a Warmace when they looted it, and loves the idea - helps his damage overall, because he doesn't get to Sneak Attack often. Uses it in every battle, sometimes more. Back on the first side of the hand, if he flubs a few rolls, he starts getting real depressed and loses interest for a while.

Human Wizard 3/Cleric 3/True Necromancer 1: Most heavily developed backstory character in the group. Unfortunately, he really wants to use undead, and use the True Necromancer class...so at this point, his effectiveness is approaching nil. He's also the party healer, which gets problematic at times. Favorite spell is Summon Undead.

Human Champion 7: Probably the best RPer in the group, due to previous experience. Also the most erratic behavior OOC, so it's a bit of a ****shoot as to what happens - though always good for collective laughs. Quite an effective warrior now that he can Fly in champion form, though I've been lax and not given them more fights/day than he has transformations yet.

Human Wizard 6/Elemental Savant (Earth) 1: Newest member of the group. Friend of the wizard/cleric. Actually likes utility spells, compared to the sorcerer, so it's very convenient to the whole group. Though, also has a fixation on the Acid Breath spell (I think he just likes the part where he announces he's eating a fire ant).

Effectiveness ranking:
-Fighter (pre-bear)...Charging has never failed him, and when it did, Power Attack worked out instead.
-Champion...backs up the fighter, does almost as much damage with a bit more utility.
-Sorcerer...blaster spells ftw.
-Wizard...mainly just to lack of experience with the power of the wizard. I've been helping him pick useful spells to aid the party, without pointing out the Ub3rCh33ze like Shivering Touch, so I've got a good handle on this.
-Rogue...too dependent on Sneak Attack for damage, and the lack of effective teamwork hampers that.
-Necromancer...The group is almost all WoW vets, so I've pointed out that their group is equivalent to having a Dranaei Warrior with his racial Heal Over Time ability as their primary healer on an instance run. He can't do either side of his progression effectively yet - just an inherent curse of the Theurge classes.


Conclusion: In "newer", less experienced/savvy groups, encounters solved by massive HP damage are the best way to go.

[tobian]

Door #2, Door #2!

Hehe, close. Actually, door #3.

Have a consolation cookie anyways

I loved that character to death, but I had a different idea starting out than where I actually ended up taking him. He was definitely effective, but he was completely un-optimized for where his true potential laid.

Though, I would play him again in a heartbeat-nothing beats a singing dragon who could chop peoples heads off while seducing someone

[dr.cello]

Heh... nothing is really for free... and that most DM probably don't really read enough or think too much to see how the source books affect his/her game, or consider whether his/her world want to take in all that stuff.

You have to understand that there's such a thing as "game mechanics." Experience levels, for instance, are not meant to represent 'suddenly I know all of this stuff!' As mentioned in OotS, when Elan says that he wants to take a level in wizard, 'it's retroactively assumed I've been looking over [V's] shoulder, taking notes.' (Paraphrased, probably.) What a new level represents is something like getting a blackbelt in a martial art, or getting a certificate in something. When you take a level in fighter, it's assumed that for the duration of your experience, you've been practicing with weapons and armor, focusing your training on combat. When you take a level in wizard, it's assumed that you've been studying spells, and so on.

If the system were entirely realistic, you should be slowly increasing in abilities constantly; a practicing wizard would probably start at prestidigitation and work her way up. It's not. And multiclassing can occasionally be somewhat silly, but you can usually find a way to make it work.

With prestige classes, often it just represents training in a certain way. Take thief-acrobat, for instance. While there may be a guild that trains it, the prerequisites are simply a character with decent acrobatic skills and the evasion ability. Someone who goes into it as a PrC presumably was working on his acrobatic skills at the expense of his more generalized rogue abilities like trapfinding and sneak attacks--practicing mobility, working on becoming more flexible, honing reflexes, and so on.

Some prestige classes have supernatural abilities, but this doesn't mean they had to learn it from an organization. Though the flavor text for Shadowdancer talks about troupes, it could just represent a rogue who has spent so much of his time dancing from shadow to shadow he has developed a supernatural affinity for it.

If you are even halfway competent as a DM, you should be able to incorporate prestige classes without problem. Even (or especially) in homebrew worlds. You should try to find out what your players might be going for as a prestige class and tell them if it's viable, then work something out. If you want them to have a mentor or train under a guild, make that a side quest, or let them do it in the down time between adventures. If that doesn't work for your campaign (maybe you have a campaign where your characters don't have any downtime), then let them pick it up some other way.

When DMing or roleplaying, I almost never refer to the classes by their names in-game, unless I feel like there's a good reason to do so (Eye of Gruumsh is an in-game title, for instance). It feels too much like the characters are aware of the game mechanics, which they shouldn't be. As has been said. You don't have to have a level in a Samurai class to be a samurai, nor do you have to be a samurai to have levels in a Samurai class. (Or, if you prefer, you don't have to have levels in Swashbuckler to be a swashbuckler. Any sufficiently agile fighter or rogue with a rapier and Weapon Finesse fits the bill.)

They're called prestige classes to differentiate from base classes, by the way. There need not be anything prestigious about being a member of one of them. (Hell, in Star Wars there's a couple PrCs you can take at level 3.) It's not that they're prestigious, just that you take them at higher levels, and they tend to supplement a base class, emphasizing some of its abilities rather than a completely new style of play.

Does the PrC mechanic sometimes seem a bit silly if you look at it in game terms? Sure it does. But your job as a DM is primarily to let the players enjoy themselves; the only time you should deny someone a PrC from a book you're using is (a) if you let them know ahead of time, and (b) if there is really no way you can think of to make it work in your campaign.

(And that should be pretty rare. I've managed to fit classes like Arcane Archer into human-only campaigns, and I can think of ways to tweak just about any specific PrCs so they fit just about anything. Red Wizards of Thay, etc., etc.)

[Kurald Galain]

Recently played a low-level dungeon hack that would be a nice example for this thread.

(1) a rogue, of that elemental sand race that hates water and can produce dazzling light. Level 2.
(2) also a rogue of that same race. I don't know why the players picked the almost exact same character. Level 3, I think. To be fair I think they have different plans for their build, and probably have different feats.
(3) Human. I kind of forget what class this guy was, but I believe it was monk. At any rate he didn't contribute at all. Level 2 or maybe 3.
(4) Human. Some kind of blaster mage, that given our low level was doing less damage than a regular 1d8 sword strike. Level 2.
(5) Halfling beguiler. Level 1.

The thing here is that, despite being lower level, the beguiler could have soloed the mission. Since we didn't do all that much combat, sneak attack didn't come into play, and skillwise the high-int beguiler can stand in for a rogue any time, with Detect Magic added for finding dangerous areas. The few combats we had were simply trumped by his SOL spell ability. The only downside about soloing is that if he would have sprung a hit point trap, it would probably have killed him.

Observations:
* having two nearly identical build is boring, especially for them
* SOL rocks
* some of the non-PHB races are really quite silly
* blaster mages aren't interesting at low level, because their spells do unimpressive amounts of damage until they get higher
and most importantly:
* if the adventure does not involve heavy combat, characters that lack skills and (non-blasting) spells really don't have much to do.

[kjones]

bardic music is even worse than I expected it to be. It's fun to do in a casual game, but tactically it's like taking a 10 on opening a flask of acid with your eye.

Q F Frickin' Tee, dude.

[Fax Celestis]

My last group (ECL 13) that I DMed for.

Fighter 13
Pros: Player wanted a simple character, since this was his first foray into 3.5, so I steered him towards a fighter. Despite their standard of sub-par-ness, the player managed to make the character work mostly through intelligent feat selection and his willingness to be "mook destroyer": he handled the little dudes while the rest of the party blew up the big guy.
Cons: Player was playing a fighter, who started out average and ended up being rather mediocre. He did become slightly more awesome once I'd provided him neat fighter-only stuff, but that required DM intervention on my part merely to bring him to the rest of the party's standard.

Cleric 3/Warmage 3/Mystic Theurge 7
Pros: Player wanted to play a blaster-caster. I know that blaster-casters thrive on spell slots, and one way to get a lot of them is to play a theurge, so I steered him towards that. Player did remarkably well despite having MAD, mostly by virtue of accepting his squishiness and staying out of the front lines. Player also took Domain Spontaneity with the Fire domain to assist in blasting.
Cons: Due to Domain Spontaneity, player had trouble being healer for the party consistently. Also, most players thought that he would be able to front-line, but he not only chose to not do so but refused to do so, which occasionally threw off party tactics.

Kineticist 9/Pyrokineticist 4
Pros: Excellent RPer and terrific with ingenious uses of powers. Player advanced into Pyrokinetist PrC as a plot-point more than a build choice, which--while it made sense--was probably a bad idea.
Cons: Since player did not work with me on character concept and mechanics, he ended up with a build that conflicted with his intents. Also, Pyrokineticist muted his psionic powers, and made it difficult for him to keep up with the other casters in the party.

Ranger 7/Shadowdancer 6
Pros: Player wanted to TWF and melee, so I steered her towards Ranger. Player decided she liked being sneaky too, so Ranger was a good fit. Player "fell into" Shadowdancer after reading the prerequisites and realizing she had them all already. Player used Shadowdancer powers with some finesse, and managed to be a fairly good frontliner.
Cons: Player did not utilize shadow companion or ranger spells at all. Player may have been better served by a spell-less ranger variant and a shadowdancer variant that did not have a companion. Further, taking six levels of a class that usually doesn't see facetime as more than a dip class, especially one that has medium BAB and a d6 HD while planning to remain as a frontliner cramped her style.

Ranger 2/Fighter 2/Monk 2/Justice of Weald and Woe 7
Pros: Player knew what he wanted and knew how to get it. Player built character without my guidance, and chose to build a startlingly terrifying archer. His character utilized the Splitting enhancement to dish out damage in quantities higher than most other characters, short of the blaster caster, were capable of.
Cons: Player used mechanics that I did not understand entirely, with a few instances causing me to have to pause game to figure out how exactly things worked.

Relative effective power, in descending order:
Cleric/Warmage/Mystic Theurge
Ranger/Fighter/Monk/Justice
Ranger/Shadowdancer
Psion/Pyrokineticist
Fighter

[Arbitrarity]

ECL 5-7, depending on sessions played and date joined;
Note: Various houserules in place, including IH skill groups. One character uses an IH class. Bard/rogue get all thief skill groups. Low cash, free special abilities, stunts and challenges in place. (special abilities have minor penalties, such as -4 on resisting bull rush/overrun/trip, or cold vulnerability), Armour as variable DR, IH active defence bonuses, vitality points/reserve points.

Halfling Fighter 5/Master Thrower 1

Ridiculous to-hit (+15ish?) for the level, very low damage output. 1d3+2 is not fearsome. "Air" themed special abilities, flight, flurry of blows (with all weapons, as monk level = level-5), Heart of air 1/day. Contributes with sufficient damage buffing, and gradually over combat.

Pros: Great AC, very mobile, extremely accurate. Most hp currently. Good reflex and fort saves.

Cons: Low damage, often uses techniques deemed improbable (I throw my greatsword at it!). Somewhat rashly uses abilities, has difficulty in social situations. Low will save.

Halfling rogue 5

New player, did not get special abilties at this point, due to time of arrival and other factors. Often primary DD, using crossbow sniper. This may say something about our DD capabilities. Skill monkey, though few traps have been encountered.

Pros: Great skills, decent AC and health. Lack of abilities weakens somewhat. Excellent damage, good accuracy. Sneak attack is nice when enemies spend most of their time blinded.

Cons: New player, so difficulty maximising uses of skills, etc. Great reflex, iffy otherwise on saves.

Human Half-dragon Barbarian 2.

Was our primary DD. Not too squishy either, but the player left for the summer, so died ignomiously. Rather aggrivating in some cases (Hug! (you take 15 points of non-lethal damage)).

Pros: Deadly. Very deadly. Also good for carrying stuff.

Cons: Character played in a manner contradictory to survival of party. Very few HD. Dead, player is away.

Venerable Human? Wizard 3/Sorceror 2:

Planned to go into UM. Ridiculously underpowered character, 2 strength/dexterity, 8 con. 21 INT, 22 cha. Was wiped out by having a table dropped on him. Extremely annoying, blaster.

Pros: Ummm... had lots of damaging spells?

Cons: Really freakily squishy (15hp), vulnerable to touch of fatigue, annoying player in some cases (I cast fireburst while in the middle of the party!). Dead.

Human Bard 7: (me)
Face, secondary caster, was primary healer, skill-monkey (due to good intelligence, skill groups). Fire abilities. Rages as barbarian (barb level = level-5), produce flame 3/day, Heart of fire 1/day. Due to often encountering one encounter/day (Of party level+4 or 5), often burns uses of produce flame. TWF's with flame or shortsword/Whip-dagger. Often attempts to augment damage with stunts/challenges. Has talked ogres into drowning themselves. Going into 3.0 (houseruled in) virtuoso.

Pros: Second most health in party, due to good rolls. Decent spell selection, superb in social situations. Extremely varied skills, due to skill groups. Burns things a lot, use of stunts for significant boosts (I tumble under the chimera, and try and hit it in a vulnerable area, while it has its back turned to me. (Tumble check at -9. Sucess. Touch attacks with produce flame, adds 3d6 sneak attack for neutering chimera)).

Cons: Burns through abilities and spells quickly. Domination of social situations can be annoying to some. Is hit quite often, rarely gets use of most bardic music. Lousy saves, except reflex.

Human Sorceror 7:
Primary caster. Specializes in battlefield control, metamagic specialist variant. Makes heavy use of sculpted Glitterdust, Web. Often wins fights, or at least makes them much easier. Water themed abilities, self-only Freedom of Movement 3/day, Heart of Water 1/day, can create aligned water, voice of the sirens (?) 1/day.

Pros: Wins fights. Often gets lucky on enemy saves. Enough spells to use quite a few in a single combat.

Cons: Pathetic AC, mediocre Hp. Rarely gets use of special abilities. Poor fort and ref saves.

Kobold Druid 6: Newcomer to this game, generally plays only moderately effectively. Uses spells often, too new to the game for character analysis.

Pros: Great AC. Has natural spell. Decent spell selection, should supplant the bard for healing. Decent Hp. Good saves.

Cons: Mediocre understanding of wildshape, lack of animal companion optimization.

Elven Hunter (IH class) 7:
Tactician, gives significant buffs to the rest of the party. Effective in combat, makes good use of Tactics of the Mind, and Beastlore. Uses an Elvencraft Longbow, consistiently damaging. Primary spotter, with high wisdom, Woodsman's senses, elf bonuses, and maxed perception ranks. Earth-based abilities, Heart of Earth 1/day, natural armour boost, hard to bullrush/trip/overrun.

Pros: Great at spotting, good accuracy, decent damage. Good in social situations for spotting lies, excellent buffing of party. Best AC, due to various augmentations available. Has heal ranks, which save vs. poison. Can use abilities to compensate for health. Great reflex/will saves.

Cons: Squishy. 6 con, lousy fort save.

Overall, for effectiveness, of currently living characters.
1) Sorceress.
2) Bard or Hunter
3) Druid or Rogue
4) Fighter.

Actually, all characters are pretty good, seeing as we can wipe out encounters we should be dying on. This might be a result of a large party/balance issues with abilities and variants, though.

[Kurald Galain]

It seems the major lesson to be learned for many beginning players is that you can essentially nerf yourself by multiclassing without forethought, or by taking subpar prestige classes.

[Fax Celestis]

Current group (ECL 8) that I DM for. Do note this has some interesting bits in it due to the campaign being arctic-themed:

(Lesser) Urskan Barbarian
Pros: Reachmonkey tank, quite possibly the strongest melee character of the party despite being limited to medium armor. Uses a poleaxe and natural attacks for double-threatening, and has a variety of battlefield control feats he frequently uses to his advantage.
Cons: Large-sized, while providing benefits most of the time, sometimes is a bad thing in more cramped spaces. Has been delegated to the "muscle" of the group, when he should be able to occasionally provide more finesse than he is granted by the rest of the party.

Dark Changeling Rogue/Warblade
Pros: Hide in Plain Sight and Sneak Attack coupled is a deadly combination. Also uses Diamond Mind maneuvers to both locate and dispatch his foes. Is a fan of a loophole in the Dark template that grants him +10' to all forms of movement, not just those he possesses already.
Cons: Rogue levels provide less than stellar BAB and a d6 HD, meaning that he is remarkably fragile. Almost suffered a grisly fate on many occasions due to lucky hits from opponents. Lower AC than most of the party due to reliance on light armor.

Catfolk Sorceror
Pros: Due to her limited spell selection, has had to make some very significant choices over the course of her career. I have houseruled her a few extra spells because the sorceror is very very limited as it is, but it's not too significant a number. Is inventive with her casting and--largely due to skill selection and race--is capable of high levels of mobility.
Cons: Has very little in the way of actual combat spells. Has plenty of buffs, but when it comes down to dispatching an enemy, is not very capable of it.

Goliath Crusader
Pros: Capable of dropping large quantities of damage in very short order, particularly via charging maneuvers coupled with Power Attack and associated feats.
Cons: Hampered by randomized maneuver granting process occasionally. Requires a lot of space to be effective, more than even the Urskan, and is therefore hampered by enclosed dungeon spaces.

Human Favored Soul
Pros: Uses a variety of buffs in conjunction with the PHB-II Deity's Favor variant to make most of the party rock. Capable of tanking and/or dishing out large quantities of damage should the need arise, but doesn't do so frequently, more often leaving that to the barbarian and rogue/warblade.
Cons: When faced with debilitating effects, is not able to handle some of them because of limited spell selection.

Relative effective power, in descending order:
(this is a tough call since they're all so close)
Urskan Barbarian
Rogue/Warblade
Favored Soul
Crusader
Sorceror

[Wolfwood2]

Current Group. This one is lower level than most of the examples, and last session was our first one at 5th level.

Human Cleric 5
Focused almost entirely on healing as a character concept. Will only take action other than healing in combat if healing is not possible. Has even refused a better AC bonus from heavy armor because she wants to keep a 30 ft move so as to be able to reach people and heal them. Not particularly optimized in terms of stats. (She started with only a 14 in wisdom.)

There's no doubt that having a devoted healbot has saved the party's bacon more than once. In one combat my character went down to negatives and finished at full hitpoints. Has started opening combats with a Mass Aid on the group, which is pretty sweet. It remains to be seen how viable a healing focus stays as the group levels.

High Elf Psion (egotist) 5
Functions as a pretty good blaster. Really likes Energy Stun (used in +1 pp/+1 DC version) and frequently shuts down enemies with it. Also fond of Mind Thrust. At 5th level picked up Astral Construct with expanded knowledge, so expect those to be heavy hitters soon. Has a selection of utility powers like psionic Tongues, Animal Affinity, Call to Mind, and (most recently) Ectoplasmic Form.

D4 hitpoints and low constitution (from being an elf) and no defensive powers lead to a glass cannon problem. Still, she has a decent AC (just got a mithril shirt +1) and has used Psionic Body feat for a few extra hitpoints. Also has problems burning through power points too fast, and "sits out" some combat rounds shoooting a bow if she won't/can't spend any more pp.

Human Ranger 5
Standard archer ranger, with expected archery feats and masterwork bow of strength. Has been known to occasionally drop bow and wade into melee with a greatsword when needed, but that may happen less as we gain higher levels. A consistent damage dealer and okay sneak/scout.

The player isn't that familiar with the rules, but it's not a complicated class and we helped him with feat selection. Has shown encouraging willingess to look to Spell Compendium for ranger spells. Perfectly reasonable favored enemies of Undead and Magical Beasts. A very reliable damage dealer.

Human Paladin 5
This is my character. I understand and accept that I will be outshone by spellcasters, and I just want to do my part dealing melee damage. Took Power Attack and Cleave at first level, then took Mounted Combat at 3rd, knowing it would take a couple of levels to pay off. With an Int of 10, I took some social skills of Sense Motive (maxed) and Diplomacy (not maxed) for something to do outside combat, while of course maxing Ride.

For levels 1-4 I was a reasonable tank, moving slowly about in the heaviest armor I could afford with a greataxe and keeping enemies occupied. As I suspected it would, everything changed when I got my bonded mount halfway through last session. All of a sudden I was crossing the battlefield in a single move action and chewing through enemies right and left, with my mount as powerful as it'll ever be (in comparison). Planning to continue the feat chain up to Spirited Charge, using Rhino's Rush from the Spell Compendium and Smite Evil for a couple of nova damage attacks per day.

Human Artificer 5
Weakest party member. In fairness, due to a missed session and late start, the character is running about half a level behind everyone else. But still, I'm shocked out how weak this, supposedly one of the strongest classes, has been.

Despite owning a lot of books, the player hasn't focused enough on the basics of Infusions. He keeps forgetting to buy the material components for the non-personal weapon and armor enhancements, and often spends a round messing around with a wand or scroll not powerful enough to do very much. In fairness, he is on the ball as far as item creation goes and will probably get more powerful in the future.

Also has a bad habit of running into melee with D6 hitpoints, a 10 strength, and lousy armor, leading the DM to nickname him "damage sponge".

Overall (from strongest to weakest)
Psion
Cleric
Paladin
Ranger
Artificer