OOTS #1092 - The Discussion Thread

[skim172]

So, now they can hover! They couldn't just hover back when they had seconds to pick a mountain to dodge though.

Maybe they just have terrible brakes.

[Scizor]

Maybe they just have terrible brakes.

What sort of brakes would an airship have?

You'd either need large panels which break against the air, or you'd need propelers switching direction. We haven't seen any panels, and at the time engines were already functioning poorly, IIRC, so yeah, terrible/no breaks would probably be the case, if it was be considered at all.

[Rogar Demonblud]

What sort of brakes would an airship have?

Air brakes, of course.

[Quebbster]

Well, they're presumably not that far from the last gate, considering they're in dwarven lands and that's where it lies. Also, it seems to be there's a lot of potential story between "finding the last gate" and "defeating Xykon and everyone lives happy ever after", so Belkar dying when they've found the final gate doesn't necessarily mean he'll be around for the climax of the story.

Kraagor's gate is "North, past the Dwarven lands even" so they probably have a fair bit left to go, especially since we don't know how large the Dwarven lands are.

[Clistenes]

I assume that once the incubation period is over and they realize they have it, they'll find someone to cast cure disease and be done with it.

I'm pretty sure won't be sick when he gets resurrected, so he can heal the rest... But it can still become a plot point during their fight against Xykon...

[Svata]

Kraagor's gate is "North, past the Dwarven lands even" so they probably have a fair bit left to go, especially since we don't know how large the Dwarven lands are.

Strip 1044 shows the Pole is less far from Firmament than Firmament is from the place they entered Dwarven Lands.

[Doug Lampert]

Well, they're presumably not that far from the last gate, considering they're in dwarven lands and that's where it lies. Also, it seems to be there's a lot of potential story between "finding the last gate" and "defeating Xykon and everyone lives happy ever after", so Belkar dying when they've found the final gate doesn't necessarily mean he'll be around for the climax of the story.

I think you're misunderstanding me. Finding the last gate isn't when I'm predicting him to die, it's when I'm predicting that it's reasonable to worry that he's about to die, because finding the last gate is likely to either signal the climax, or shortly precede it. The death prediction I'm making is for the climax.

I was giving when it is reasonable to start worrying about Belkar's death being imminent. I said: "Belkar is hardly likely to die permanently prior to the climax. I've been wrong on predictions before, but "Belkar doesn't die prior to them actually FINDING the last gate" strikes me as a fairly solid prediction."

The bold text above is part of the prediction. (1) He will be alive till the climax. (2) The climax will almost certainly be after they find the last gate. (3) Therefor you don't need to worry about Belkar's death being imminent till they find the last gate.

[Shoelessgdowar]

"All the wrong reasons" doesn't mean "only and exclusively wrong reasons". It means "all the reasons that could be a wrong one". It does not exclude a good one being included with all of the wrong ones.

First all is all, which means if a single wrong reason is not among them, then it is not all, is is many, or a multitude, which are still in this case not the case, a wrong reason (complete AND total ultimate arcane power... Which was incidentally not actually achieved anyway, but that is another matter entirely) or even a few wrong reasons (revenge, ego, and achieving COMPLETE and TOTAL ULTIMATE Arcane Power) is far from ALL the wrong reasons, good reasons only further seperate it from all the wring reasons by making it a mix of reasons both right and wrong.

To explain, since you miss the point, other absent wrong reasons would be:
Making all text Belkar, Durkon, Roy, Haley, Miko, and Pompei see be 'Explosive Ruins'.
Destroying the World so the Snarl wins.
Becoming Besties with Xykon.
Rewriting reality so only Elves are PC races, all other races are helpless level 0 CRs but each give a trillon xp and it takes only 1 xp per level for Elves.

Since all if the above wrong reasons weren't among the reasons V said 3 words (repeated word is redundant, therefore only the 3 mattered, ergo, 3 words) it was not, nor could ever be ALL the wrong reasons.

V is talking to a person - V. People do talk to themselves.

V is convincing V that V is doing the right thing.

"The right time" is "the moment when vast amounts of arcane power are available"

And the "wrong reasons" - satisfying V's own ego when it came to magic, was one of them.


The Giant made it crystal clear how it worked, in Don't Split The Party commentary.

Even the repeated I - it's a pause, not a stutter.

If it was a stutter, it would be

"I-I must succeed"

not

"I ..... I must succeed"

1) Vast Arcane power was not the stipulation, it was for Complete AND Total Ultimate Arcane Power. This was not achieved.

2) the prophecy didn't say for a wrong reason, a few wrong reasons, or even some wrong reasons, it was for ALL the wrong reasons. All the wrong reasons were not present.

3) I repeated is I stuttered, it is a single syllable, single letter, the two can't be mutually exclusive, otherwise it isn't even a stutter, it is a mumbled uh uh uh uh and not yet I. Even if I-I-I-I is stuttering, and I... I is repetition, only I must Succeed is pertinent, the first I is superfluous, so only 3 words mattered. "I must succeed, NOW" would be 4 words, "I must succeed" is only 3.

Please let us not start this discussion again, we had it a mere five strips ago.

I actually initially was just pointing out the various arguements excluded debating the words themselves validity, and only was an issue of the count.

I wasn't trying to restart this discussion, simply iterating the difference between what was being debated and what wasn't.

I am willing let this drop for now, if everyone else is willing to simply agree to disagree and leave it to rest.

[hamishspence]

The Giant in Don't Split The Party (I decided to post only the most relevant snippets, rather than every paragraph:

In this chapter, that prophesy is fulfilled - but not the ways that readers expected.

...

The Oracle pulled the same verbal trick on both V and the readers: replying positively to a phrase that connoted one thing, but only actually denoted a lesser thing. Once V accepted the splices, he/she did have complete and total ultimate arcane power - insofar as he/she contained all three possible Soul Splices (and thus had a complete set) could use all of their spells at the same time (accessing the sum total of their magic), and had more total spell levels available than any other spellcaster (giving him/her the ultimate selection of arcane powers).

Of course, more spells than anyone else does not necessarily mean every spell, and it certainly does not mean infinite power. Vaarsuvius may have assumed that it did - but then, this entire story is predicated on Vaarsuvius making careless assumptions.

...

The question then becomes: did events come to pass as the Oracle predicted? Yes. The being in question? Vaarsuvius him/herself. The four words? "I ... I must succeed", spoken at the end of strip 634. Yes, I know that two of the words are the same as the result of a stutter. The Oracle never specified all the words would be part of the same complete sentence, so the number of words was essentially a red herring.

As for the wrong reasons, V chose to accept the fiends' deal in order to preserve his/her belief in the unrivalled might of arcane magic, a belief that had been shaken by his/her loss at Azure City, and exasperated every day since, because V has built his/her entire self-image upon that belief.

...

The four words that V speaks, therefore, are critical in convincing him/herself that success is the most important consideration - that the ends justify the means. And, more importantly, that it needs to be Vaarsuvius who succeeds, not someone else.. hence the emphasis on the word I. It's a lie, but it is enough of a flimsy pretense to enable him/her to do what he/she wants in his/her heart: take the power, consequences be damned.

so - even if is a stutter - it still counts as four words. "Complete and total ultimate arcane power" was achieved (using each word separately) and one wrong reason here qualifies as "all the wrong reasons".

[Jaxzan Proditor]

It's pretty clear that the Oracle is mixing literal and figurative phrasing in his response. Thus, complete and total ultimate arcane power is fulfilled using a literal meaning of the words, while all the wrong reasons passes through a figurative reading of the text.

I don't even know how you arrived at the conclusion that a word being redundant somehow makes it no longer a word. Vaarsuvius still says 4 words to gain power, even if they say one of them twice.

[dtilque]

I don't even know how you arrived at the conclusion that a word being redundant somehow makes it no longer a word. Vaarsuvius still says 4 words to gain power, even if they say one of them twice.

The person has a problem with one of the Oracle's predictions about his favorite character. So in order to show that that prediction is wrong, he feels he has to discredit all the predictions made by the Oracle. That, despite the fact that he's arguing with the author. Guess who's going to win that argument?

Because of this, I do my best to ignore all postings by this person. Everyone else should do the same and things will be much pleasanter around here.

[Basement Cat]

I don't think Belkar is that introspective. He expects to die someday. Being told, "and it will be soon BWAHAHAHA!" probably wouldn't bother him that much, he might not bother with faking character growth if he knew he would not live to the payoff, he might be a bit more likely to go on a murder rampage just for the EviLOL. But why would he worry about it? If it's a true prophesy then it's not like he can do anything about it. If it's a false prophesy then it's even less worth worrying about.

I know I'm going to die, they issue you a death when they give you a life, the delivery of the death is just delayed a bit, it could happen any time. It doesn't really bother me all that much. Knowing it would be within X weeks might bother me a bit more, or the certainty might be a bit comforting, but I think I'd just indulge myself some and make sure my will was in order, and I'm a LOT more introspective and prone to worry than Belkar.

Edited: And, yes, you should know better. Belkar is hardly likely to die permanently prior to the climax. I've been wrong on predictions before, but "Belkar doesn't die prior to them actually FINDING the last gate" strikes me as a fairly solid prediction.

...

Uh oh!

I just thunk a thought about Belkar's prophesied death. One that could have pretty interesting complications.

What if the Snarl's world--the world within the world--somehow becomes populated by the individuals it ensnares and Belkar becomes ensnared by the Snarl?

But...I'm going out on a limb here...something about the Snarl's world is different enough to satisfy the Oracle's prophesy while keeping Belkar...I dunno, active in some way?

tl/dr What if Belkar's prophesied fate involves being caught by the Snarl and transported to the Snarl's world...and there's a twist that would explain Belkar's never drawing another breath but 'living' on in the Snarl's world?

[Jasdoif]

But...I'm going out on a limb here...something about the Snarl's world is different enough to satisfy the Oracle's prophesy while keeping Belkar...I dunno, active in some way?

Unless you have some idea what that "something" could be, and why it wouldn't work in the world Belkar's already in....This looks less like "going out on a limb" and more like "falling off of the tree".

[factotum]

The bold text above is part of the prediction. (1) He will be alive till the climax. (2) The climax will almost certainly be after they find the last gate. (3) Therefor you don't need to worry about Belkar's death being imminent till they find the last gate.

Believe me, I don't *worry* about Belkar's death being imminent--I'm awaiting it with breathless anticipation, given that I severely dislike the character and await his removal from the strip.

[Svata]

I mean, has it been his birthday yet?

[Ruck]

I mean, has it been his birthday yet?

It was probably some time between the events of War and XPs and now.

More relevant is the claim here. And apparently, the end of the year is currently at "seven weeks minus the time passed since book 4."

(I haven't been tracking the exact length of time since, so I don't know either how long has passed or how the end of the year relates to the timing of the Sphinx Pox.)

Strip 1044 shows the Pole is less far from Firmament than Firmament is from the place they entered Dwarven Lands.

I'm actually not clear that it does, at all. As the crow flies, Zenith Peak is closer to Firmament than the North Pole, definitely. Even including how they had to route through the pass, I'd say the former is shorter, but I don't know how a map like this might get distorted at the poles.

[NontheistCleric]

Air brakes, of course.

I don't think you know what air brakes are.

[Quebbster]

It was probably some time between the events of War and XPs and now.

More relevant is the claim here. And apparently, the end of the year is currently at "seven weeks minus the time passed since book 4."

(I haven't been tracking the exact length of time since, so I don't know either how long has passed or how the end of the year relates to the timing of the Sphinx Pox.)

It's worth considering that the Godsmoot was held at the Winter Solstice, which is basically Christmas in our calendar. If the Oracle follows a similar calendar, the end of the year may not be far away at all.

[Yanisa]

(I haven't been tracking the exact length of time since, so I don't know either how long has passed or how the end of the year relates to the timing of the Sphinx Pox.).

But someone else has!

About 3 weeks were left since the start of the Godsmoot. And it only has been a day, or two(?), since then.

Similarly the start of the Sphinx Pox could fall around the same day the order entered the Western Continent, which still means there is a week left until incubation. But most likely it was picked up in Girards's Pyramid, which is only a week ago. Which places the incubation time past Belkar's death. Then again... many variables, many possibility.

[The MunchKING]

I don't think you know what air brakes are.

Oh come on! He steals a classic Warner Brothers joke, and gets real-world corrected on it. Sad. :(

[Keltest]

Oh come on! He steals a classic Warner Brothers joke, and gets real-world corrected on it. Sad. :(

Maybe the ship ran outta gas?

[Quebbster]

But someone else has!

About 3 weeks were left since the start of the Godsmoot. And it only has been a day, or two(?), since then.

Similarly the start of the Sphinx Pox could fall around the same day the order entered the Western Continent, which still means there is a week left until incubation. But most likely it was picked up in Girards's Pyramid, which is only a week ago. Which places the incubation time past Belkar's death. Then again... many variables, many possibility.

Nice thread, thanks for the link!
One thing I noticed is that the Giant explicitly says the Oracle follows the Southern calendar. If Roy is unaware of this and bases his "seven weeks" estimate on the Northern calendar he could be off by "a few months".
Granted, nothing says Belkar will die on New Years Eve, but I wouldn't be surprised if a future strip deals with Roy's confusion that it's New Years Day and Belkar is still alive.

[bengator]

I just wanted to say I love the detailed artwork with Haley's hair. Although V's seems immune to wind. He must have a +5 Scrunchie of Protection

[GreatWyrmGold]

And a case could be made that Elan already experienced a happy ending in Girard's Final Phantasm.

Eh...so did everyone else. And given that Elan was the one who realized that it was too good to be true, it's not even possible to claim that his ending was happiest. All of this turns the Oracle's "for you, at least" comment from sinister to confusing.

He said he got his happy ending later that day when Belkar gave him a whistle. :p

Remember, this is Elan before any significant character development. I don't trust his interpretation of events.

If I had been the Oracle, I would've told Belkar about his pending death, just so he'd constantly experience that anxiety for the rest of his (short) life.

The Oracle did. But somehow, Belkar forgot. Maybe it's the low Wisdom score?

...
tl/dr What if Belkar's prophesied fate involves being caught by the Snarl and transported to the Snarl's world...and there's a twist that would explain Belkar's never drawing another breath but 'living' on in the Snarl's world?

More complicated and contrived than typical "Belkar turns into some kind of undead" workarounds. (Especially since the Order is about to fight a group of vampires.)
Come to think of it...wouldn't it be hilarious if Belkar turned into some kind of undead, but was destroyed before the year was up anyways?

I don't think you know what air brakes are.

I don't think Rogar was serious.

[Quebbster]

The Oracle did. But somehow, Belkar forgot. Maybe it's the low Wisdom score?

When Belkar was there, the Oracle didn't make an official prophecy about his death. Anything not in a green speech bubble was forgotten when they left the Sunken Valley.
The Oracle did give Ghost Roy an official prophecy version later on, ironically enough when it wasn't needed since Roy remembered everything about the visit anyway.

[GreatWyrmGold]

When Belkar was there, the Oracle didn't make an official prophecy about his death. Anything not in a green speech bubble was forgotten when they left the Sunken Valley.
The Oracle did give Ghost Roy an official prophecy version later on, ironically enough when it wasn't needed since Roy remembered everything about the visit anyway.

I really need to start flagging my jokes.

[Quebbster]

I really need to start flagging my jokes.

Oh, it was a djoke! Very funni! Ha ha! Olli bolli!

[Rogar Demonblud]

I just wanted to say I love the detailed artwork with Haley's hair. Although V's seems immune to wind. He must have a +5 Scrunchie of Protection

Actually, she's using her Headband of Intellect to hold her hair back. I think the switch was on the boat at the end of DSTP.

[DavidSh]

I don't think you know what air brakes are.

Do you know what air brakes are in the context of aeronautics?

In the real world, while some airplanes have air brakes (specialized flaps that increase drag without changing lift), airships don't. Probably because yawing the airship 90 degrees would create more drag than any practical set of flaps could generate. Even without yawing the airship, experiments on naval blimps show them decelerating from 50 mph to 17 mph in about a minute, with the engines off.

Of course, this is all airspeed, and not groundspeed. If the wind is blowing into the mountain (presumably changing direction before actually entering the mountain), the airship will be driven into the mountain unless it uses its propellers, or some kind of anchor.

[Kareasint]

Maybe the ship ran outta gas?

Well, you know how it is with these "A" cards.

I am looking forward to seeing how the inside of the temple looks with the new art style.