OOTS #1092 - The Discussion Thread

[Kardwill]

Honestly I'm kinda surprised that people assume this plan will work at all.
I mean, how inept as a demigod do you have to be to not realize that the voting is getting rigged with the elders dominated? Especially since demigod-dude knows that Hel is involved and that all dwarfed would be damned in case of a "yes".

He knows a "yes" vote would consign his entirte species to eternal damnation, and he still insisted to have the council vote before he cast his vote... The guy is either completely unable to make a decision, or so completely attached to the letter of his vow that he can't go against it, even in the direst circunstances. Either way, I don't think a technicality like "but they were dominated!" will change his strict adherence to the result.
Even Hel knew her little "I'm gonna eat all the dwarves, mwahaha!" speech would not change that, and included rigging the dwarf vote in her plans.

I'm getting excited. We're very close to the confrontation I expect to be the climax of the book. It's been worth the wait. I wouldn't be surprised if the Order engages the vampires in 2-3 strips.

They're going in through the temple the vampires could not break into, so I expect an encounter with survivors (priests, bystanders or even members of Durkon's family) holed up inside before the big fight.

[Quebbster]

Wasn't the High Priest right there during the assault, especially when the Stone guy exposited about how they were going to do it?

The Gods can only hear each other, so no, Dvalin may not know what the vampires said. Hel had her monologue Before the priests of the demigods entered the Godsmoot, so Dvalin hasn't heard that either.

[Cazero]

Wasn't the High Priest right there during the assault, especially when the Stone guy exposited about how they were going to do it?

That's only relevant if the high priest can order his god around and make him listen. Unfortunately, it works the other way.

He knows a "yes" vote would consign his entirte species to eternal damnation, and he still insisted to have the council vote before he cast his vote... The guy is either completely unable to make a decision, or so completely attached to the letter of his vow that he can't go against it, even in the direst circunstances.

...Or he's considering the possibility that the dwarven people might want to have a say in that decision, as per the spirit of his vow, and might even be willing to sacrifice themselves for the greater good.

[The MunchKING]

The Gods can only hear each other, so no, Dvalin may not know what the vampires said.

They can only hear each other in golden super form but...

That's only relevant if the high priest can order his god around and make him listen. Unfortunately, it works the other way.

Oh come on I didn't mean boss him around, I just meant pray, as we know they listen to that from their clerics.

[Quebbster]

Oh come on I didn't mean boss him around, I just meant pray, as we know they listen to that from their clerics.

The last two strips make it quite clear the gods themselves aren't listening all the time though.

[ImperialPhoenix]

The last two strips make it quite clear the gods themselves aren't listening all the time though.

And it's not just those strips that drive the point home on that, remember the colon tumor bot?

[Ganbatte]

He knows a "yes" vote would consign his entirte species to eternal damnation, and he still insisted to have the council vote before he cast his vote... The guy is either completely unable to make a decision, or so completely attached to the letter of his vow that he can't go against it, even in the direst circunstances. Either way, I don't think a technicality like "but they were dominated!" will change his strict adherence to the result.

Which would put him as the singlest most moronic deity in the entirety of all pantheons, and a mistake at being given any reign over the dwarves.

[georgie_leech]

Which would put him as the singlest most moronic deity in the entirety of all pantheons, and a mistake at being given any reign over the dwarves.

What makes you think he has any reign at all? Like, do we have any indication that his power stems from anything but being a dwarfy Dwarf that dwarfed harder than the other Dwarves? Demigods are not known to be of central importance to their pantheons. Like how they were literally shut out from the big todo with the other gods, and whose vote only counts collectively as a tie breaker.

[Ganbatte]

What makes you think he has any reign at all?

Remember the whole "my yes or no will count for world destruction and possible damnation of all dwarves" thingie?

[georgie_leech]

Remember the whole "my yes or no will count for world destruction and possible damnation of all dwarves" thingie?

By virtue of multiple ties and he votes last (probabpy because getting him to vote is apparently a long and drawn out process ). If that other demigod hadn't switched their vote, he would have been utterly irrelevant.

[Ganbatte]

By virtue of multiple ties and he votes last (probabpy because getting him to vote is apparently a long and drawn out process ). If that other demigod hadn't switched their vote, he would have been utterly irrelevant.

Yes I know all this fluff. It doesn't change that he has reign over the dwarves fate, meaning that if he'll really accept a dominated "Hel says we must say yes" as "the will of the council" he'd prove to be a moron beyond belief.

[Rogar Demonblud]

As has been repeatedly stated, the dwarves have cornered the market on Lawful Stupid. As Dvalin is the dwarfiest dwarf ever, that means he's the Lawfullest and the Stupidest.

Here's hoping his slot in the pantheon comes open for a new candidate in the next few months after this whole gate thing is resolved.

[Jasdoif]

It doesn't change that he has reign over the dwarves fate, meaning that if he'll really accept a dominated "Hel says we must say yes" as "the will of the council" he'd prove to be a moron beyond belief.

His actions thus far don't really paint him as a shrewd leader, no. Then again, I'm still expecting HPoH to take off in an attempt to destroy the last Gate to obviate the Godsmoot regardless; this will almost certainly be more effective as a ploy to drain the Order's time and resources than as an attempt destroy the world destroyed pogrommatically.

[georgie_leech]

Yes I know all this fluff. It doesn't change that he has reign over the dwarves fate, meaning that if he'll really accept a dominated "Hel says we must say yes" as "the will of the council" he'd prove to be a moron beyond belief.

Uh... fluff? It's a story. This is not a guy they ever planned on holding the fate of the world, so whether he was a moron seems besides the point. Even then, "the priorities of the gods don't always mesh with those of the people living in the world" is hardly a new idea. And from an out-of-universe perspective, "there isn't actually a plot because the actions of the protagonists and primary antagonists are irrelevant because of the actions of tertiary characters" seems... unlikely.

[Jasdoif]

And from an out-of-universe perspective, "there isn't actually a plot because the actions of the protagonists and primary antagonists are irrelevant because of the actions of tertiary characters" seems... unlikely.

Now to be fair, here....The protagonists and the antagonists opposing each other is enough to sustain the plot.

I mean, Roy was there when Dvalin projected "I don't want to send my people to Hel, but I have to ask my people whether they want to go to Hel or not so I can vote for them on whether to send my people to Hel or not". Is Roy really in a position to realistically think "Nah, he's just kidding!" And that being the case, whether Dvalin would ultimately go through with it or not is subsidiary to whether the Order survives their attempt to stop the vote rigging or not....Which is convenient, given the extremely likely case that the Order succeeds and the Council of Clans votes to leave the world intact, and Roy receiving Veldrina's message will constitute the wrapup of the Godsmoot subplot.

[8BitNinja]

Kraagor's gate is "North, past the Dwarven lands even" so they probably have a fair bit left to go, especially since we don't know how large the Dwarven lands are.

It might just be me, but I always got the impression that Dwarves went downward, not outward.

[Ganbatte]

Uh... fluff? It's a story. This is not a guy they ever planned on holding the fate of the world, so whether he was a moron seems besides the point. Even then, "the priorities of the gods don't always mesh with those of the people living in the world" is hardly a new idea. And from an out-of-universe perspective, "there isn't actually a plot because the actions of the protagonists and primary antagonists are irrelevant because of the actions of tertiary characters" seems... unlikely.

Ah now I get what you wrote, I think. It's beyond my point though.
Dvalin supposedly cares about the dwarves, and in this situation has power over their fate, meaning that if he accepts Hel's voting under dominance he's a moron, if he doesn't even realize he's incompetent. None of which make for a compelling character or really good conflict on this particular matter.

When someone's plans rely on the other party to be utter and unimaginable buffons to possibly succeed, well... that's not really a great plan to follow about, which takes away from the conflict as a whole.

[alwaysbebatman]

Dvalin took a vow which is (to him) beyond unbreakable. Regardless of outcome. From the point of view of Dwarven culture, a vow that you only keep when the outcome isn't completely awful is no kind of vow at all.

To give some context, the High Priest of Thor ordered Durkon to leave the Dwarven lands and not return until summoned. Even though there was a prophecy that he would bring destruction when he returned home, he didn't kill him or assign anyone to keep him out. He acted in complete confidence that Durkin would never just disobey him.

The way that Dvalin is acting is in accordance with the highest ideals of Dwarven culture. The fact that most of us would call those ideals deeply stupid doesn't change the fact that Dvalin's actions are consistent with how we should expect him to act.

[Ganbatte]

Dvalin took a vow which is (to him) beyond unbreakable. Regardless of outcome. From the point of view of Dwarven culture, a vow that you only keep when the outcome isn't completely awful is no kind of vow at all.

To give some context, the High Priest of Thor ordered Durkon to leave the Dwarven lands and not return until summoned. Even though there was a prophecy that he would bring destruction when he returned home, he didn't kill him or assign anyone to keep him out. He acted in complete confidence that Durkin would never just disobey him.

The way that Dvalin is acting is in accordance with the highest ideals of Dwarven culture. The fact that most of us would call those ideals deeply stupid doesn't change the fact that Dvalin's actions are consistent with how we should expect him to act.

Yes, everyone knows that already.
He's supposed to follow the will of the council to the letter.
Not Hel's.
Simple as that.

[Svata]

If she overrides their will with her own, there is effectively no difference between the two. They had a vote, he agreed to do what the vote said to do. He's Lawful to a fault, and that sometimes results in problems. Taking any alignment too far can result in problems.

[alwaysbebatman]

@ganbatte: So... What are you arguing, exactly? That there's no way that Dvarin's vow is worded so that he is bound by what the Elders say they want with no exceptions made for "but they're dominated, that doesn't count"? Because if that were the case, this probably wouldn't be Hel's plan, right?

[Cernor]

Everyone seems to agree that Dvalin accepting the vote of Dominated elders would be ridiculous: maybe that's the point. If coerced votes are invalid, then Gontor could Dominate every elder and force them to vote for destruction. Why Gontor? Because then UnDurkon could claim ignorance of the whole plot. If UnDurkon could intercept the elder sent by Clan Thundershield, that would give him the opportunity to show up to the council himself, claiming to be sent instead.

With all but one elders' votes invalid due to Domination, the whole vote comes down to the one person we know will actually vote for dishonour and enslavement of the dwarven population: the vampire inhabiting Durkon Thundershield. If the elders are also protected by dwarven law, this also has the benefit of neatly making the Order's preparations useless!

[Ganbatte]

@ganbatte: So... What are you arguing, exactly? That there's no way that Dvarin's vow is worded so that he is bound by what the Elders say they want with no exceptions made for "but they're dominated, that doesn't count"? Because if that were the case, this probably wouldn't be Hel's plan, right?

My point is that Dvalin is supposedly super-lawful to what the Council wants, not Hel.
So if he takes the vote of dominated puppets as legit he's a complete moron.
If he doesn't even realize they're dominated on a matter of such grave importance he's beyond incompetent.

Neither situations speak very well for him and consequently for the conflict at hand.

[Svata]

There is no loophole in his sworn oath that accounts for Domination.

[Ganbatte]

There is no loophole in his sworn oath that accounts for Domination.

Imposed foreign wills such as through Domination aren't the will of the Council.

Spoiler

Show

Hey look, I can make up stuff too!

[alwaysbebatman]

This is one of those cases where it's only a plot hole because you've decided it is.

What do we know of his vow? He described the vow, he did not recite it-- we do not know the exact wording. But what we do know? Hel, a rational actor acting in her own interest believes that she can force his vote by having the council Dominated by vampires. Is that because she believes she can hide the fact that they are dominated from the demigod? Or because she knows that his vow is worded so that it does not matter? We don't know yet. But we know that she must have a way to deal with this issue that she believes has a reasonable likelihood of success, or else she would be taking a different course of action.

[Ganbatte]

This is one of those cases where it's only a plot hole because you've decided it is.
What do we know of his vow? He described the vow, he did not recite it-- we do not know the exact wording. But what we do know? Hel, a rational actor acting in her own interest believes that she can force his vote by having the council Dominated by vampires. Is that because she believes she can hide the fact that they are dominated from the demigod? Or because she knows that his vow is worded so that it does not matter? We don't know yet. But we know that she must have a way to deal with this issue that she believes has a reasonable likelihood of success, or else she would be taking a different course of action.

I'd like to know when I "decided" so since I don't remember ever mentioning plot holes?

But since you raised the matter, it could be as you say, yes... or it could just be a hole in the plan, and Hel thought nothing of such things.
Because that's how those holes work, glaring problems with a narrative that nobody accounted for, so Hel might just go "Oh crap" when Dvalin shows some common sense and refuses to accept a Dominated Council vote as legitimate dwarven will since it very clearly isn't.

Actually, that would be anti-climactic and pretty great.

[Cazero]

So, respecting a law enforcing voting procedure on some extremely grave matter is stupid? Huh.
Remember kids, don't bother voting !

[Ganbatte]

So, respecting a law enforcing voting procedure on some extremely grave matter is stupid? Huh.

When the voting is rigged and the voters drugged and manipulated?
Totally, I'd just call it basic common sense. No judge or superior authority would let that pass.
Also since the matter is of such "extremely grave importance" all the more reasons to heavily scrutinize that "yes" before going along with it.

Honestly the more I think about this the more Hel's plan sounds ridiculous, almost surreal.
She's basically staking everything on a single dude being the greatest demi-moron of all times.

[alwaysbebatman]

Take a look at 1024. Roy has a conversation with three Dwarven high priests. They know what Hel is sending her Vampires to do, and that Roy is off to stop them. And if anyone we've seen would be likely to have insight into what King Dvalin is likely to do in a given situation, it would be them. Now would be the time for them to let Roy know: "no worries, really, Hel's plan could never work anyway!"

Instead they wish him gods speed because they believe that the fate of the Dwarven people is in his hands.