Idea on spells

[MrNexx]

This was just something that's crossed my mind a few times, and I wanted people's opinions on it.

Basically, every point in the spell listings where it says "Person", replace it with "Own Type."

So, a dragon casting a 1st level spell to make someone his friend is casting Charm Dragon, a human casting it is casting Charm Humanoid, and a beholder-mage casting it is casting Charm Abberation. At higher levels, they can get better at this, and cast the 4th level spell Charm Any Type.

Thoughts?

[Jack Mann]

Sounds good. You might keep certain spell-likes as affecting humanoids, though. For example, the beholder-mage might cast charm aberration, but its eye ray should probably charm humanoids (or else upgrade to the charm any type). Definitely, a creature that is partly based around the ability (like a nixie) should continue to be able to charm humanoids. Explain it with the fact that humanoids are generally much more common than other types (except for animals or vermin), and thus more useful. Especially with something like a fey, where they rarely have trouble with creatures of their own type.

After all, if the creature is unable to use those effects on the party, those abilities will never come into play, which (depending on its overall power) may necessitate a change in CR.

[BardicDuelist]

In many situations, I agree with this. The problem with it, as alluded to above, is that it would make monsters weaker against the PCs they are fighting.

One suggestion I could make is to keep SLAs the same, but have spells be as you described. That way, it affects less monsters in a negative way. I also think that, from a fluff perspective, spells that affect the same type of the caster make more sense.

[MrNexx]

I hadn't given thought to monster SLAs, but I like Bardic Duelist's suggestion to keep SLAs the same.

Now, Charm Any Type is a 4th level spell (based off Charm Monster, it charms anything not immune); Charm Own Type is 1st level. You could also set charms for specific types at differing levels. Charm Animal, for example, is a 1st level spell, but that's because animals are relatively simple minds. Charm (Specific Type) might range between 1st and 3rd levels, depending on the type.

1st
Charm (Own Type)
Charm Animal
Charm Magical Beast

2nd
Charm Humanoid
Charm Giant
Charm Monstrous Humanoid

3rd
Charm Aberration
Charm Dragon
Charm Elemental
Charm Fey
Charm Outsider

4th
Charm Any Type

Obviously, other spells would be a bit different... Hold Own Type would be 2nd level as a base.

[BardicDuelist]

I like that. It means that there isn't just "person" and "monster" and so you don't have to wait forever just to charm a common creature who doesn't happen to be a "person." The degree of specialization is nice, however I think that this could make life harder on bards (yes I have to think about my favorite class here), as they only get so many spells known per level.

The other thing I see as a problem is the fact that fey or outsiders would get a more powerful first level spell than a humanoid (although I think it may be less useful in most situations).

It would make more sense to me to make all of the charm (type) spells first level so that one would have choices, but make a requirement that you must know charm (own type) before you can learn annother. This does make charm monster (or charm any type) less powerful, however breaking the types down at all makes them less powerful.

If it can be worked out to somthing I would consider balanced (by DnD standards of course) I would deffinately consider using it.
I am not entirely sure of the ramifications here, just pointing out what I see. Personally, I like the idea but am not sure on how I would handle it.

Also, I think a Charm (vermin), Charm (undead) and a Charm (plant) would be interesting. Make them so that they do not affect mindless creatures (except for the vermin one), but will affect intelligent undead or plants. They should probably be third or fourth level as well (perhaps second or third for bards).

[The_Werebear]

Or, you could just say "Charm Person/Own Type. So the Dragon can charm other dragons because he understands them or humanoids because there are so freaking many of them.

[MrNexx]

I like that. It means that there isn't just "person" and "monster" and so you don't have to wait forever just to charm a common creature who doesn't happen to be a "person." The degree of specialization is nice, however I think that this could make life harder on bards (yes I have to think about my favorite class here), as they only get so many spells known per level.

My personal version of bards don't have a Spells Known. They're not limited to a few spells known, but are still spontaneous casters (basically singing a few snatches of a magical song in order to enact their effects).

The other thing I see as a problem is the fact that fey or outsiders would get a more powerful first level spell than a humanoid (although I think it may be less useful in most situations).

Yeah, it would be a more powerful spell, but I'm also thinking about the targets, here... Outsiders SHOULD be harder to charm for non-outsiders, as should Fey and Dragons.

It would make more sense to me to make all of the charm (type) spells first level so that one would have choices, but make a requirement that you must know charm (own type) before you can learn annother. This does make charm monster (or charm any type) less powerful, however breaking the types down at all makes them less powerful.

I don't like that because spell prerequisites aren't really part of the game. If we were talking psychic powers, sure; I still tend to think in 2nd edition terms for psychics; but it doesn't, IMO, work out for spell magic, where each spell is pretty much distinct knowledge.

Dividing them fixes the problem where fey, for example, are unable to use typed mind-affecting spells on each other until they get to a high level, but are not incapable against humanoids, either, by giving them a pre-4th option.

Also, I think a Charm (vermin), Charm (undead) and a Charm (plant) would be interesting. Make them so that they do not affect mindless creatures (except for the vermin one), but will affect intelligent undead or plants. They should probably be third or fourth level as well (perhaps second or third for bards).

Those were excluded because those types are specifically immune to mind-affecting spells. You can Control them, but not Charm them.

[BardicDuelist]

In consdering it I think Werebear's idea is a good idea. I guess there really isn't a problem with the order then when I think about it. So perhaps this:

Lv.1
Charm person/own type
Charm animal/magical beast (they are similar enough, and having to have two spells known makes it difficult)

Lv.2
Charm giant/monsterous humanoid (again to not make somone who wishes to use charm spells often waste several spell's known)

Lv.3
Same as you had it
(Charm anything for bards)

Lv.4
Charm anyting

Lv.6
Charm anything, mass for bards

Lv.8
Charm anything, mass



On a side note: Did you mean that bards can cast any bard spell spontaneously?

[MrNexx]

Lv.1
Charm person/own type
Charm animal/magical beast (they are similar enough, and having to have two spells known makes it difficult)

My problem here is that it leaves humanoids as being weak against magic (which many are, but on par with animals?), and similar enough to others that ANY type of creature can think like them.

On a side note: Did you mean that bards can cast any bard spell spontaneously?

They have to learn them, but they don't keep a spellbook.

http://rpg-crank.livejournal.com/7951.html

[BardicDuelist]

While it would seem like humanoids are more susceptable to magic to you if you did it that way, I read it as most creatures learn how to use magic to affect humanoids since they are so common (and so much of a threat to so many creatures). Since most of the monsters casting spells would be casting against PCs, it makes them just as effective as they were before.

I love your bard variant. I was actually creating one similar that uses a "song book," but the fact that they're half casters made that just annother weakness.

[woc33]

the problem with those spells is that they aren't versatile enough, they are only usable for very certain encounters. my solution to this issue is to make Charm like the summoning spells.
this is how it will go:

Charm I:
Charm (Own Type)
Charm Animal
Charm Magical Beast

Charm II:
Charm Humanoid
Charm Giant
Charm Monstrous Humanoid

Charm III:
Charm Aberration
Charm Elemental
Charm Fey

Charm IV:
Charm Outsider
Charm Dragon


every level of the spell allows the new types along with all the previous ones, so the Charm IV spells counts as Charm Anything.

[MrNexx]

That's not a bad option, WoC. It makes a logical progression of charms, addresses the issue with difficulty of charming your own type v. the very common humanoids, and keeps spontaneous casters from having to sink every spell into charm.

[illyrus]

I like the idea.

I'd make sure that polymorph(or any other type changing spell) is changed so you don't have someone polymorphing into a tiny dragon so they can cast dominate dragon as a 5th lvl spell.

[Kurald Galain]

This does seriously nerf sorcerers and bards, and anything else choosing from a limited spell list.

Also, sorry, I can't charm gnomes today, I only have Charm Elf memorized.

[puppyavenger]

How exactly? the charm antything is still a 4th level spell so he can just take charm type and charm antything and it will be the same.

[nerulean]

This does seriously nerf sorcerers and bards, and anything else choosing from a limited spell list.

Also, sorry, I can't charm gnomes today, I only have Charm Elf memorized.

I think the idea is that you take a charm spell of any level up to IV, and a single spell lets you charm anything listed in that level or the ones below it, which makes it fairly good. You could take it as a lower level spell to exclude a couple of powerful types that are fairly likely to make their saves anyway.

[Ikkitosen]

the problem with those spells is that they aren't versatile enough, they are only usable for very certain encounters. my solution to this issue is to make Charm like the summoning spells.
this is how it will go:

Charm I:
Charm (Own Type)
Charm Animal
Charm Magical Beast

Charm II:
Charm Humanoid
Charm Giant
Charm Monstrous Humanoid

Charm III:
Charm Aberration
Charm Elemental
Charm Fey

Charm IV:
Charm Outsider
Charm Dragon


every level of the spell allows the new types along with all the previous ones, so the Charm IV spells counts as Charm Anything.

This is Good.

[MrNexx]

I think the idea is that you take a charm spell of any level up to IV, and a single spell lets you charm anything listed in that level or the ones below it, which makes it fairly good. You could take it as a lower level spell to exclude a couple of powerful types that are fairly likely to make their saves anyway.

WoC's version is like that, and I like it a bit better than my original idea.

[nerulean]

WoC's version is like that, and I like it a bit better than my original idea.

Yah, tis what I was talking about, I think Kurald Galain missed a bit of the explanation.

Hmm. Apparently I'm in a weird mood.

[tainsouvra]

This does seriously nerf sorcerers and bards, and anything else choosing from a limited spell list.

Also, sorry, I can't charm gnomes today, I only have Charm Elf memorized.

They're talking about types, not races. "Own type" would be "Humanoid". Gnomes and Elves would both be affected.

[Merlin the Tuna]

Charm I:
Charm (Own Type)
Charm Animal
Charm Magical Beast

Charm II:
Charm Humanoid
Charm Giant
Charm Monstrous Humanoid

Charm III:
Charm Aberration
Charm Elemental
Charm Fey

Charm IV:
Charm Outsider
Charm Dragon

This is too bloated to justify a departure from the norm. Adding the caster's type as an option to Charm Person seems reasonable, but I would never use this except as an example of how well Psionics work.