Culinary Question

[Xefas]

How do you handle food in your campaign? Specifically, the consumption of food. Do you make your PCs eat 3 times a day? twice? only once? Can they grab some breakfast and eat it with one hand while they fight with the other? Is eating rations somehow worse than if the PCs learned to cook some decent stuff? Maybe situational morale bonuses if someone gets a natural 20 on their Cooking check?

Which has always made me wonder... Is Cooking a Craft or Profession? You're crafting food, but it isn't exactly...craftable (via the rules, at least). Plus, it seems like it could be both a wisdom or intelligence skill.

Or, do you not even bother with food at all? Is it a meaningless triviality that only takes away from your hardcore roleplaying time or your epic quest of lich-bashing?

Me...well, my players always just buy Rings of Sustenance with their starting gold.

[MeklorIlavator]

I have a cleric who doesn't buy a ring. Instead, he prepares create food and water. Its a minor character trait, because he sees it as a literal way of drawing sustenance from his god. We are also in cities alot in the campaign, so even those without a ring of sustenance have reliable food sources.

[MrNexx]

Cooking would be a profession, IMO, simply because you CAN'T represent it with the crafting rules.

[Skjaldbakka]

I've always seen cooking as more intuitive than brainy- so profession, because its wisdom based.

[TheOOB]

I generally just require my players to pay a certain weekly upkeep cost that includes rations, repairs, normal arrows, ect. I only worry about food if the party is trapped on a deserted island or some such, and even then a cleric with create food and water does the trick.

[Paragon Badger]

Starvation And Thirst
Characters might find themselves without food or water and with no means to obtain them. In normal climates, Medium characters need at least a gallon of fluids and about a pound of decent food per day to avoid starvation. (Small characters need half as much.) In very hot climates, characters need two or three times as much water to avoid dehydration.

A character can go without water for 1 day plus a number of hours equal to his Constitution score. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each hour (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

A character can go without food for 3 days, in growing discomfort. After this time, the character must make a Constitution check each day (DC 10, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d6 points of nonlethal damage.

Characters who have taken nonlethal damage from lack of food or water are fatigued. Nonlethal damage from thirst or starvation cannot be recovered until the character gets food or water, as needed—not even magic that restores hit points heals this damage.

Spoiler

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Jug, Clay
This basic ceramic jug is fitted with a stopper and holds 1 gallon of liquid.

Waterskin (1 gp, 4 lb.) (Holds 1/2 gallon)

Rations, trail (per day) (5 sp, 1 lb.)

Spoiler

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Inn
Poor accommodations at an inn amount to a place on the floor near the hearth. Common accommodations consist of a place on a raised, heated floor, the use of a blanket and a pillow. Good accommodations consist of a small, private room with one bed, some amenities, and a covered chamber pot in the corner.

Meals
Poor meals might be composed of bread, baked turnips, onions, and water. Common meals might consist of bread, chicken stew, carrots, and watered-down ale or wine. Good meals might be composed of bread and pastries, beef, peas, and ale or wine.

Chaching!

[C Harnryd]

Profession (cook) is mentioned in the PHB.

I normally only bother with keeping track of food consumption when the party is in the wilderness and lacks a cleric.

Exactly how and when the characters eat is usually uninteresting and takes place offscreen (like going to the toilet, making camp, training, boring conversations and the like).

[Dairun Cates]

Actually, the craft vs. Profession cook came up in a campaign. One player had one. I had the other. The ruling was that the Craft (Cook) person invented masterpieces that took hours. The Profession (Cook) character was better at recreating dishes that already existed in rapid succession. Basically, one was a 4-star chef, and the other was a short-order chef. Guess who ended up doing more work?

[Matthew]

Heh. For long term campaigns, I expect Player Characters to take measures to provision themselves as part of the logistical planning for an expedition or when setting themselves up during 'downtime'. This is usually handled via a Party Fund and is, in my experience, a fun part of the game (as logistical planning is part of strategical thinking). In one shot games, it rarely features.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Profession (cook) doesn't represent the ability to prepare food. It represents the ability to make a living as a cook.

This is a particularly important distinction, as Profession is a Trained Only skill. And I don't think cooking is exactly limited to those with technical experience. (Though cooking good food certainly is. )

[Telonius]

Providing food is actually a function of the Survival skill, though it refers to hunting and foraging. I would think that "restaurateur" would be a profession, and that "chef" would be a craft. Making a meal for yourself and your friends would be part of the Survival skill.

EDIT: Note that Survival can be used untrained.

[Ulzgoroth]

There is no one so cheap as the cleric who lives off purify food and drink.

Yes, you can eat out of a dumpster, compost heap, or midden in perfect safety...

[Arbitrarity]

Masterwork scones:

These scones are incredibly delicious-smelling, and covered in a thin layer of honey. They provide a +2 on any social interaction check which involves them, as long as it is in a fashion implying that the other party will recieve them.

20 gp. 1 lb.

[C Harnryd]

Profession (cook) doesn't represent the ability to prepare food. It represents the ability to make a living as a cook.

This is a particularly important distinction, as Profession is a Trained Only skill. And I don't think cooking is exactly limited to those with technical experience. (Though cooking good food certainly is. )

True. The skills are for situations when it's important to know if a character succeeds with something and/or how well. Profession (cook) shouldn't be used for making an ordinary breakfast when the ingredients are there, nor should any other skill.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

True. The skills are for situations when it's important to know if a character succeeds with something and/or how well. Profession (cook) shouldn't be used for making an ordinary breakfast when the ingredients are there, nor should any other skill.

Mind you the theory behind when a check is needed is blurred a bit by the rules for Taking 10 on skill checks. You can go to the other side of things by saying that making an ordinary breakfast is just a DC 5 check and most folks just take 10.

It seems to me the way things get written up in the skill rules tends to reinforce the "very low check DC" side of things for most applications. Of course, there are certainly situations where a particular action doesn't require any sort of check. However, I've also had my fair share of burnt eggs served up for my "ordinary breakfast," so I really don't think cooking's one of them.

Providing food is actually a function of the Survival skill, though it refers to hunting and foraging. I would think that "restaurateur" would be a profession, and that "chef" would be a craft. Making a meal for yourself and your friends would be part of the Survival skill.

Mmm...

Survival is geared specifically for preparing food obtained by "getting along in the wild". That is after all the actual function of the food-related survival check.

I'm having a hard time seeing the happy homemaker, non-professional cook type being an expert outdoorsperson just on the basis they make a mean lasagna.

I'd really suggest there's a subtle distinction between Profession (cook) and Craft (food). One can make good food. The other knows how to present it.

[Neek]

Profession just isn't a skill for making a living off of something. The amount of skill points doesn't express an abstract way of you BSing your way into a vocation and scoring cash off it. It represents a set of knowledge and skills you'd use to do that job. So, Profession (Cook) implies that you know how to be decent enough cook to do the job; you know how to prepare meats and vegetables, estimate ingredients and times, improvise, read recipes, &c.

With Craft, you can't just take Craft (Food). You can take Craft (Pie), Craft (Bread), Craft (BBQ), Craft (Kender Pot Pies), &c. You understand the elements of a very specific class of food, and can make those. I've always drawn the line between the two skills; craft is for creating a very specific type, it shows knowledge of a specialized creation (weapon smithing, for example), while Profession doesn't express mastership with a specific type, just a broad understanding. (This isn't to say you can't have Profession (Smithy), just that Craft (Blacksmith)'ll get your farther).

As for my campaigns, I've been up on it, reminding the players of eating... In the last session, they ate a breakfast of eggs and biscuits, made by an NPC they are traveling with.

[goat]

In my opinion, they only person who should be fighting while eating should be a swashbuckler, and it should be some sort of leg of meat stolen from the table of whoever he's fighting with.

[Telonius]

Mind you the theory behind when a check is needed is blurred a bit by the rules for Taking 10 on skill checks. You can go to the other side of things by saying that making an ordinary breakfast is just a DC 5 check and most folks just take 10.

It seems to me the way things get written up in the skill rules tends to reinforce the "very low check DC" side of things for most applications. Of course, there are certainly situations where a particular action doesn't require any sort of check. However, I've also had my fair share of burnt eggs served up for my "ordinary breakfast," so I really don't think cooking's one of them.


Mmm...

Survival is geared specifically for preparing food obtained by "getting along in the wild". That is after all the actual function of the food-related survival check.

I'm having a hard time seeing the happy homemaker, non-professional cook type being an expert outdoorsperson just on the basis they make a mean lasagna.

I get what you're saying. But if you take the opposite tack, I can't imagine an expert outdoorsperson not being able to cook a decent meal. A good chunk of campout time back when I was in Boy Scouts was centered around campfire cooking.

The Survival DC is 10 to provide food and forage while moving half your overland speed. So I'd think that the DC of a standard meal, cooked at home, would be something like 3 or 4. Food is always time-sensitive, so no taking ten. Your average peasant mom isn't going to be doing anything fancy with the meal, just cooking it so that (hopefully) won't give her kids food poisoning. That sounds more like a Survival check than any kind of a Craft check to me (though I could understand it if it was ruled otherwise). Either way, you could still end up with burnt eggs, but only on an awful roll.

[Ulzgoroth]

Time sensitive applications and taking 10 don't conflict. You can take ten on most skills so long as you aren't threatened or distracted (and the meaning of distracted is unclear). Taking 20 is limited to skills where there's no penalty for failure.

I would say cooking works best as a profession. It is not a profession and a craft both...profession skills include all the required subskills of carrying out the profession, so those subskills shouldn't be scattered across other domains. The only problem with this is that Profession is technically trained only. If you instead apply the knowledge rule (untrained capped at 10) for checks to perform the tasks, rather than to earn money, that easily covers the fact that just about anyone can use a fire to convert a chunk of meat into something somewhat palatable (DC 5, or lower).

Survival checks are about hunter-gathering. Food preparation doesn't enter into it...why should it? You can eat most things you'd be collecting raw if you really had to, and very well might since survival works just fine if for some reason you can't use fire.

Food poisoning is an issue a long way from the survival skill. Food poisoning relates to inadequately cooking food that's festered. Survival is about obtaining fresh food. Unless you expect rangers to regard carrion as a food source, they don't have much to worry about in that regard (unless maybe they botch cleaning their kill).

[Bardbarian]

Masterwork scones:

These scones are incredibly delicious-smelling, and covered in a thin layer of honey. They provide a +2 on any social interaction check which involves them, as long as it is in a fashion implying that the other party will recieve them.

20 gp. 1 lb.

--->That, my friend, is an amusing Intimidate check! "Do want I say, and you get the Scones. Don't do what I say, and you get the Scones! "

[Fax Celestis]

My players usually acquire Everlasting Rations a.s.a.p.

[MisterSaturnine]

I don't have much to say on the subject due to my lack of experience, but I would take the advice of what someone said on some thread here some time ago, which is: make the PCs eat when it's plot handy.

And, of course, it never hurts to give a skill monkey some points in (Craft) Macaroni and Cheese.

[Shifty]

This is somewhat tangential to the original issue, but does anybody else think that 'at least a gallon of fluids' is preposterously high? For those of us who are willing to accept the progression to an intuitive system of measurement, that's 4 litres of liquid. I don't think I've ever had 4 litres of liquid in one day in my entire life, not including drinking binges. I usually get by on a shade over one litre, and this is when active in moderately warm weather and average humidity. A character who drank 4 litres daily would be too busy pissing to fight.

[Fax Celestis]

A character who drank 4 litres daily would be too busy pissing to fight.

...I sense a new combatant PrC! The Urinator!

[psychoticbarber]

I usually drink between one and two liters of WATER a day, plus whatever else I drink.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Profession just isn't a skill for making a living off of something. The amount of skill points doesn't express an abstract way of you BSing your way into a vocation and scoring cash off it. It represents a set of knowledge and skills you'd use to do that job. So, Profession (Cook) implies that you know how to be decent enough cook to do the job; you know how to prepare meats and vegetables, estimate ingredients and times, improvise, read recipes, &c.

Yes, a professional does have to be able to do their job. But that doesn't mean they do it in the same fashion as the amateur. A professional cook typically has to be able prepare meals for larger groups people for one. Another big thing about professional food service, as I mentioned, is presentation—knowing how to make it look and smell more appealing that it really is.

There are plenty of people that are talented in one area or another but are just unable to make it into a profession simply because they don't know how to do their work on the proper scale or how to present it.

With Craft, you can't just take Craft (Food). You can take Craft (Pie), Craft (Bread), Craft (BBQ), Craft (Kender Pot Pies), &c. You understand the elements of a very specific class of food, and can make those.

Isnt that a bit like saying "You can't take Craft (weaponsmithing). You have to take Craft (sword), Craft (dagger), Craft (polearm), etc.?

I get what you're saying. But if you take the opposite tack, I can't imagine an expert outdoorsperson not being able to cook a decent meal. A good chunk of campout time back when I was in Boy Scouts was centered around campfire cooking.

Outdoor cooking is about making something that tastes reasonably well and won't give you salomonella. Nothing more, nothing less. Certainly had no lessons beyond that when I was in the scouts. Campfire cooking is a totally different beast from kitchen cooking.

And, once again—Survival is about getting along in the wild. Ability to find delicious mushrooms in the market and serve them up in a satisfying stew is quite different from finding those same mushrooms in the wild.

Your average peasant mom isn't going to be doing anything fancy with the meal, just cooking it so that (hopefully) won't give her kids food poisoning. That sounds more like a Survival check than any kind of a Craft check to me (though I could understand it if it was ruled otherwise).

I'd kinda hope even the average pesant can afford to put a little more effort into making a good meal. Food is one of the few things they got going for them.

This is somewhat tangential to the original issue, but does anybody else think that 'at least a gallon of fluids' is preposterously high?

That's one of those instances where science gets misinterpereted. Yeah, humans need approximately that much fluid to get along. It's just that most of it comes from water inside solid foods and so forth. Eat a juicy apple? There's some of your water for ya.

[Matthew]

Isnt that a bit like saying "You can't take Craft (weaponsmithing). You have to take Craft (sword), Craft (dagger), Craft (polearm), etc.?

Craft (Bow), Craft (Everything Else). Wouldn't surprise me at all to find Craft (Bread), Craft (Everything Else)...

[CaptainSam]

Our party refuses to go anywhere until they've have their breakfast bacon sarnies.

There could be an army at the gates, they'll just have to wait.

[Benejeseret]

Want to travel or persist without buying supplies = survival

Want to make money or spend money to buy supplies and cook good food (maybe like a Goodberry spell?) = Prof

Want to make masterful dishes with special properties = Craft

But as MisterSaturnine says, usually PC just eat when you remember they are supposed to be hungry. However, if a given PC has specifically put points into a cookery skill, perhaps the DM should make extra strives to track time and enforce eating.

I like the Craft(food) idea to make masterwork foods...is there a premade list of things craftable or should we compile one here?



Masterwork Summer Sausage
If eaten provides +1 Fort saves against weakness/sickness for one hour and sustenence for 6 hours. Has 10 serving until used up.
Can also be used as a weapon as a Masterwork Sap (half hardness and HP)
For each 2 servings eaten off the Sausage take 1 damage off of its use as a weapon.
(ie. if 4 servings eaten the sausage hits for (1d6-2)+strength etc. etc.)
75g 5 pounds

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Craft (Bow), Craft (Everything Else). Wouldn't surprise me at all to find Craft (Bread), Craft (Everything Else)...

Supposedly there's enough difference in the way bows are crafted compared to other weapons (most of which are either just blades of some sort or balanced pieces of wood to begin with) that they're separate skill sets.

But then, what do I know? I never even touch the Real Life Weapons and Armor thread.

But along those lines, you'd at least have categories a bit broader than the example Neek used. It would be more like Craft (baked goods), Craft (soups), etc.

Our party refuses to go anywhere until they've have their breakfast bacon sarnies.

There could be an army at the gates, they'll just have to wait.

Eh, no worries. The enemy packed their breakfast. Might as well partake themselves.

Want to travel or persist without buying supplies = survival

Want to make money or spend money to buy supplies and cook good food (maybe like a Goodberry spell?) = Prof

Want to make masterful dishes with special properties = Craft

That's exactly what I've been getting at! Thank You!

Naturally, Profession and Craft would have synergy off each other.

I like the Craft(food) idea to make masterwork foods...is there a premade list of things craftable or should we compile one here?

I seem to recall a Dragon article that referenced masterwork foods. I don't know where to start looking for it, unfortunately.