The Ninja?

[...Eh?]

What's the general opinion on the ninja's usefulness? They seem like one-trick ponies, excelling at sneaking into places and not much else. They don't seem combat oriented, but at the same time, they seem like they could be effective fighters. So, what exactly is the ninja's role in a party, and how effective can they be in combat?

[Rachel Lorelei]

The ninja fills the Rogues role, but I don't think they're quite as good at it...

[Proven_Paradox]

Yeah, I'd rather just play a rogue with ninja flavoring. As you can see in my signature, I've also homebrewed a ninja class. I'm far from alone in that; no one seems to be able to agree on just what all the ninja should be able to do.

[Morty]

Frankly, the purpose of Ninja class eludes me. I don't know much about Japan, but I don't think there's anything about ninjas rouges with assasin levels can't do.

[Eldred]

Compared to the rogue's Sneak Attack, the ninja's Sudden Strike is pathetic. You get a lot more opportunities to use Sneak Attack than you do Sudden Strike (though I havent DM'd a ninja for a while, so correct me if I'm wrong).

[illyrus]

The swift invisibility is nice for getting those sudden strikes over trying to flank in a vanilla combat. Being able to go ethereal is nice for being able to, well, pass thru walls, ceilings, and floors. The swift concealment is nice because even with invisibility purge or see invis (but not with true seeing) a ninja can get off a sudden strike. You can do a similiar thing with swift ethereal and ghost strike for invisibility purge.

Bad side is a ninja can't sudden strike from a flank. I like the fact that the ninja doesn't have to rely on his teammates picking the exact right position to allow him to flank or else wand usage or buffs to get more than a single sneak attack an encounter.

As far as the class goes, they seem a little like a sorcerer/rogue with some access to magic to benefit their SA.

Then they have a small grouping of abilities that act as icing on the cake such as improved poison use and non-detection.

Could you build a better "ninja" with multiclassing/PrCs, yes. But I think you can say the same thing about the fighter, wizard, cleric, etc.

[Merlin the Tuna]

The Ninja is better at creating opportunities than the Rogue; his ki powers allow him supernatural abilities that bypass normal problems, and he can actually get his bonus damage reliably without having to bring a friend. The Rogue is better at making use of opportunities provided him by others -- flanking, Grease spells, and so on.

[leperkhaun]

Honestly I hate the ninja class.

With less skill points i cant seem to get in the things I would want a sneaky class to have (unless we have a real rogue in the group).

Not only that is that they are set up like a rogue in how they deal damage, but unlike a rogue a ninja can only do his a couple times per day. I found that playing a ninja i would spend most if not all my feats on extra ki uses so that I could do the ninja thing without having to go....opps fellas i ran out of ki im useless now.

The main problem i have with the ninja is sudden strike. It basically forces the ninja to use thier ki to be able to do damage, making the ninja a liability for longer fights or running battles.

[Person_Man]

The Ninja is the Rogue's retarded younger brother. It can fill the same basic role (Skill Monkey), but nobody really wants him around.

1) At low levels, Sudden Strike is much more difficult to qualify for then Sneak Attack at low levels.

2) Skill boosts are ridiculously easy to attain at low levels via cheap magic items, maneuvers, and spells from your party members.

3) Invisibility/Etherealness is quite easy to attain at mid levels via magic items, maneuvers, or spells from your party members.

4) Like Monks, their AC is generally sub-par until mid-high levels, when you can afford multiple AC boosting magic items.

So to summarize, if you want to play a Ninja be a Rogue or a Scout and wear your pajamas when you go out adventuring.

[Nerd-o-rama]

The two key (that's a pun if you say it out loud) differences between the Rogue and the Ninja are Sudden Strike vs. Sneak Attack, and Ki Abilities vs. more skill points.

Sudden Strike is generally inferior to Sneak Attack in party situations, where you have someone to flank, as flanking lasts much longer than Invisibility. However, if you're for some reason solo, and want to ambush single enemies (say, taking out a guard on a scouting mission, or one-kill-and-leave assassination), Sudden Strike is effective when combined with Etherealness/Invisibility.

Ki powers give your sneaking some magical oomph for X rounds a day, but I'd probably want more skill points myself. Then again, I play Paladins with 14 Int so I can have more skill points. I think I'm addicted.

[Draz74]

So to summarize, if you want to play a Ninja be a Rogue or a Scout and wear your pajamas when you go out adventuring.

Nah. Be a Swordsage, specializing in all things Shadow Blade, with Diamond Mind as a secondary concentration. Maybe you'll have to dip a couple levels of Rogue to get Trapfinding, etc.

... not that a straight Rogue, Rogue/Assassin, or even Scout can't be a good ninja build. (Or a Beguiler, or a Ranger or Ranger/Assassin ...) But this thread seems pretty concerned about the ninja's combat capabilities ... and the Swordsage is good for that. Plus, Shadow Hand maneuvers just scream "ninja."

[Exarch]

So, the Ninja is shafted about as hard as the Samurai.

What about the OA variants? Ninjas have Sneak Attack instead of Sudden Strike, similiar skill points (not sure exactly what), and some other nifty abilities like full BAB. Is the rogue still better?

[Dhavaer]

So, the Ninja is shafted about as hard as the Samurai.

No, not nearly that bad. The ninja is shafted about as hard as the Swashbuckler. It's not as good as it should be, but it's not absolutely terrible.

[Reel On, Love]

No, not nearly that bad. The ninja is shafted about as hard as the Swashbuckler. It's not as good as it should be, but it's not absolutely terrible.

Yeah, well put.

[Orzel]

The Ninja is a Rogue who doesn't want a party. They're awesome in singles mission where enemies are weaker. But add 3 other guys and they suck.

[Fax Celestis]

The Ninja is a Rogue who doesn't want a party. They're awesome in singles mission where enemies are weaker. But add 3 other guys and they suck.

Actually, if you take away the primary sources of obtaining invisibility (ie: play in a low-magic setting) the Ninja's ability to make themselves invisible and/or ethereal becomes exponentially more useful.

[Starsinger]

So, the Ninja is shafted about as hard as the Samurai.

What about the OA variants? Ninjas have Sneak Attack instead of Sudden Strike, similiar skill points (not sure exactly what), and some other nifty abilities like full BAB. Is the rogue still better?

The OA Ninja, like the OA Samurai is much better than the "regular" D&D counter parts. OA Ninja are a better comparison to rogue, and I can't recall off the top of my head, but I think they're better.

[slexlollar89]

the ninja lacks the veratility of a rogue. the rogue can focus on dealing SA, or be a skillmonkey, or use daggers... etc. the ninja is almost worthless unless it fights few encounters and/or makes use of poison frequently. personally i prefer monk assassins with the feat from Eberron camp. set. that lets you monk weild a longsword.

[Devils_Advocate]

The Ninja is a Rogue who doesn't want a party. They're awesome in singles mission where enemies are weaker. But add 3 other guys and they suck.

Well, of course. It's a well-known fact that a lone ninja is death incarnate, but a large group of ninjas is surprisingly incompetant.

[skywalker]

Nah. Be a Swordsage, specializing in all things Shadow Blade, with Diamond Mind as a secondary concentration. Maybe you'll have to dip a couple levels of Rogue to get Trapfinding, etc.

... not that a straight Rogue, Rogue/Assassin, or even Scout can't be a good ninja build. (Or a Beguiler, or a Ranger or Ranger/Assassin ...) But this thread seems pretty concerned about the ninja's combat capabilities ... and the Swordsage is good for that. Plus, Shadow Hand maneuvers just scream "ninja."

Tome of Battle FTW!

Shadow Hand swordsages are the ninjas every ninja wants to be when he grows up.

Another issue with the ninja, just like the monk, MAD is a factor, needing intelligence for the skill points to replace the rogue, Dex and Wis for AC, Strength for damage(sudden strike be damned) and constitution would be nice(d6 HD).

[TheOOB]

Anyone who wants to play a ninja should play a rogue/illusionist/arcane trickster instead, even low level arcane spells are leaps and bounds better then ninja abilities.

[Kel_Arath]

Whisper Gnome / Ninja = hax.
Invisibility AND silence...

[Wraithy]

Anyone who wants to play a ninja should play a rogue/illusionist/arcane trickster instead, even low level arcane spells are leaps and bounds better then ninja abilities.

but that cuts off any lawful ninjas (who are actually closer to real ninjas than any chaotic ones. but then again this is D&D, who cares about realism I still wore pyjamas despite the historical innacuracies)

A while back I played a ninja, never managed to use up all of my daily ki uses (didn't waste any feats on extra ki either. 14wisdom). the ninja is a good class, if only at lower levels, I retired mine at lvl3 because other people in the party didn't need me any more. someone else started playing a scoutish character (canceling ninja's primary function), and the other party members were doing well enough in combat that they didn't need ninja support anymore (ninjas need a skirmish variant, considering I only used ghost step in turns where I moved). I also wrecked the character by starting him off on the poisoncrafter rout, which anone can tell you is F****** ***t. the right person can make a better ninja, we just have to find the cave they are hiding in.

[tannish2]

i dont have tome of battle but... rog/psion? and i think theres a presteige class that gives manifester levels and sneak atk(and would get you ethereal if i remember properly if you invested in the right powers) but im not a big fan of the ninja, if you want that flavorwise decide EXACTLY what you want, and do it with rog/wiz/ftr/psion and their respective combination classes.

[Overlard]

Actually, if you take away the primary sources of obtaining invisibility (ie: play in a low-magic setting) the Ninja's ability to make themselves invisible and/or ethereal becomes exponentially more useful.

But that's like saying if you take away primary sources of melee damage (ie make weapons illegal), the monk's ability to punch people in the face becomes exponentially more useful. It might be true, but requiring other classes to be nerfed to make you effective isn't really a good sign.

[AslanCross]

The ninja is quite lame, sadly--it doesn't gain as many skill points as the rogue and has severely limited sneak attack. The ki abilities are cool, but apart from that it's quite lacking.

I attempted to fix this in my campaign by house-ruling that they start with proficiencies with the kusari-gama (which IMO is a pretty nifty weapon).

[Ikkitosen]

The psionic rogue variant guy would make a good ninja, if you want the whole sneaky, supernatural powers strong-willed guy.

[Fax Celestis]

But that's like saying if you take away primary sources of melee damage (ie make weapons illegal), the monk's ability to punch people in the face becomes exponentially more useful. It might be true, but requiring other classes to be nerfed to make you effective isn't really a good sign.

Oh, I'm not saying it's a good idea, but I started a campaign where the only available classes were the Bard, Dragon Shaman, Factotum, Lurk, Monk, Ninja, Psychic Rogue, Ranger, Rogue, Scout, Shadowcaster, Soulknife, Spellthief, Swashbuckler, and Swordsage, and in that case the Ninja was a viable option.

[Ikkitosen]

I'd have expected a group of swordsages and a single psychic rogue

[Person_Man]

The psionic rogue variant guy would make a good ninja, if you want the whole sneaky, supernatural powers strong-willed guy.

I'm a huge fan of the Psychic Rogue and have played one in a campaign. Tons of Skills and ninja-like powers, you can use Expanded Knowledge to bump up your offense, and Mind Cripple absolutely rules against anyone who isn't immune to Precision damage.