Playground, can you advise me on pulling off a surprise?

[WarKitty]

Usual disclaimer: my players, shoo!

So the background here is that I want to do a nice after-death planar romp (3.PF). This, however, requires a TPK to occur. I don't plan on making the fight completely impossible, just very very very hard (I can always try again later). Just fiating everyone dead seems cheap, and it will really work better with a nice dramatic plot-based loss.

But what I'm worried about is if the battle becomes something they can't win, my players are going to stop the game and say "this is too hard, can we change things up so this doesn't end in a TPK." Especially since I would have to dimensional anchor the place to keep them from teleporting out, which is also going to get a bit of a cry of foul. I don't want it to be too cheap, but I think the planar adventures will be a nice surprise and it wouldn't be near as much fun if they knew what was coming. But again, I'm worried my players will stop or give up when they see the battle going badly, and it really doesn't work unless I get all of them.

[Lalliman]

Unfortunately, the best advice I can give is: Just don't do it.

Presenting your players with unexpected events is good. Changing the premise of the campaign unannounced is not. The players have probably created their characters with personal ties and goals on the mortal plane. Forcibly killing them to have a planar afterlife adventure renders those irrelevant and unobtainable. I expect that the players will feel cheated, no matter how well-executed the TPK scene is.

You can resurrect the players after a while and resume the normal campaign, but this still seems problematic. The longer they spend not playing the game they signed up for, the more likely they are to feel cheated. And if this subplot is over in one session, why bother with all the effort?

My rule for plot twists is to ask yourself: If the players knew about this twist in advance, would they have made different characters? If the answer is yes, you should either provide solid hints on where the campaign is going beforehand, or just not do it.

Of course, your mileage on this may vary, because I don't know your group. But I would strongly disadvise against ever doing this.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

Unfortunately, the best advice I can give is: Just don't do it.

Presenting your players with unexpected events is good. Changing the premise of the campaign unannounced is not. The players have probably created their characters with personal ties and goals on the mortal plane. Forcibly killing them to have a planar afterlife adventure renders those irrelevant and unobtainable. I expect that the players will feel cheated, no matter how well-executed the TPK scene is.

You can resurrect the players after a while and resume the normal campaign, but this still seems problematic. The longer they spend not playing the game they signed up for, the more likely they are to feel cheated. And if this subplot is over in one session, why bother with all the effort?

My rule for plot twists is to ask yourself: If the players knew about this twist in advance, would they have made different characters? If the answer is yes, you should either provide solid hints on where the campaign is going beforehand, or just not do it.

Of course, your mileage on this may vary, because I don't know your group. But I would strongly disadvise against ever doing this.

+1!

When I wanted to start a series of adventures with the PCs captured as galley slaves on a pirate ship, I told them. We then RP'd through their capture as flashbacks.

I suggest you try that - tell them up front this is an afterlife game setting, and the first encounter is a flashback to their TPK.

[Aneurin]

Usual disclaimer: my players, shoo!

So the background here is that I want to do a nice after-death planar romp (3.PF). This, however, requires a TPK to occur. I don't plan on making the fight completely impossible, just very very very hard (I can always try again later). Just fiating everyone dead seems cheap, and it will really work better with a nice dramatic plot-based loss.

But what I'm worried about is if the battle becomes something they can't win, my players are going to stop the game and say "this is too hard, can we change things up so this doesn't end in a TPK." Especially since I would have to dimensional anchor the place to keep them from teleporting out, which is also going to get a bit of a cry of foul. I don't want it to be too cheap, but I think the planar adventures will be a nice surprise and it wouldn't be near as much fun if they knew what was coming. But again, I'm worried my players will stop or give up when they see the battle going badly, and it really doesn't work unless I get all of them.

I'm going to echo the others here and say that doing this without the group's agreement in advance before hand could very easily create problems in the gaming group.

But that's not what you asked, and, frankly, if you're absolutely certain your group will approve and enjoy the change this is probably the way to do it: If they start to object, or complain, or just want to stop the encounter because they think they're going to lose... tell them "don't worry, I have a plan for if you don't win". Or "just roll with it, things will make more sense soon". Make it clear that there is a plan, even if you're not telling them what it is.

If that doesn't help... perhaps this wasn't the best idea to begin with. Especially in 3.PF-style heroic fantasy, where the players are expecting to kick butt and take names, rather than engage in life-or-death struggles.

Alternatively, save this idea for when a naturally occuring TPK, er, occurs. This is your back-up for if you or they really screw up.

[Pleh]

Also, death is not the only way for heroes to reach the afterlife. Planar Shift should do the trick.

[Anymage]

If they're high enough level that you need to trap them in a dimensional anchor, you pretty much just need to fiat it. Although if you do, you'll need a very good plot thread to pop up as soon as their petitioners wake up, or else they'll just have their spirits rez themselves and go back to whatever they were doing.

Inflicting a loss-by-fiat isn't an absolutely horrible thing in the right situations, so long as players come to with full agency. (For contrast, the classic loss by fiat involves the party getting captured and being stripped of their gear. Waking up naked and in chains severely limits the player options and largely forces them onto some very tight rails.) Fiat-killing lowbies to send them to an outer plane, waking up unfettered and without all their gear, is one thing. High level characters, though, tend to have more impressive experiences than simply dying. Whether having the enemy plane shift the whole temple they're in to hell, or having some minor celestials ask them to get involved in issues of planar importance, you want something more spectacular than just having them all fail their saves vs. death.

[ATHATH]

Just have the campaign start after they are already dead.

Hopeless Boss Fights ([insert link to tvtropes here]) tend to not work very well in tabletop RPGs.

[Nifft]

I'd ask my players flat-out to help write the scene whereby they lost to the BBEG and got TPK'd, talk about what secrets their characters learned which would lead to the BBEG's eventual defeat, and at least some of them would write up how they all died, taking the input from the others.

Then start the next session with a walk through of the after-death mechanics.

Then roll for initiative.

[WarKitty]

Unfortunately, the best advice I can give is: Just don't do it.

Presenting your players with unexpected events is good. Changing the premise of the campaign unannounced is not. The players have probably created their characters with personal ties and goals on the mortal plane. Forcibly killing them to have a planar afterlife adventure renders those irrelevant and unobtainable. I expect that the players will feel cheated, no matter how well-executed the TPK scene is.

You can resurrect the players after a while and resume the normal campaign, but this still seems problematic. The longer they spend not playing the game they signed up for, the more likely they are to feel cheated. And if this subplot is over in one session, why bother with all the effort?

My rule for plot twists is to ask yourself: If the players knew about this twist in advance, would they have made different characters? If the answer is yes, you should either provide solid hints on where the campaign is going beforehand, or just not do it.

Of course, your mileage on this may vary, because I don't know your group. But I would strongly disadvise against ever doing this.

That I don't think would be an issue. One thing to keep in mind is this is a genuine 1-20 game, so there are lots and lots of shifts in scenery and tone that are happening over the course of the game. So I've already herded these PC's all the way from level 1 to, currently, level 9, over the course of several years of gameplay. I think you can just get away with more scene shifts in that sort of game, it's just expected that you're going to be running around lots and lots of places.

Honestly I never got how games have this sort of premise anyway. I've never run a game that was "a city campaign" or "a rural campaign" or "a dungeon crawl." In any game I run that's not a one-shot, you can expect to be changing setting multiple times during the game - it never really occurred to me until I started reading this forum that that wasn't what everyone expected.

[ATHATH]

That I don't think would be an issue. One thing to keep in mind is this is a genuine 1-20 game, so there are lots and lots of shifts in scenery and tone that are happening over the course of the game. So I've already herded these PC's all the way from level 1 to, currently, level 9, over the course of several years of gameplay. I think you can just get away with more scene shifts in that sort of game, it's just expected that you're going to be running around lots and lots of places.

Honestly I never got how games have this sort of premise anyway. I've never run a game that was "a city campaign" or "a rural campaign" or "a dungeon crawl." In any game I run that's not a one-shot, you can expect to be changing setting multiple times during the game - it never really occurred to me until I started reading this forum that that wasn't what everyone expected.

Wait, you're (intentionally) killing off characters that your players have been playing with for years?

Get their permission first. Then set up a dungeon with rapidly-increasing difficulty, tell them that they're meant to die in it, then ask them to try to make it as far into the dungeon as they can (perhaps with rewards for certain milestones) to still make the game/combat exciting.

[Florian]

Usual disclaimer: my players, shoo!

So the background here is that I want to do a nice after-death planar romp (3.PF). This, however, requires a TPK to occur. I don't plan on making the fight completely impossible, just very very very hard (I can always try again later). Just fiating everyone dead seems cheap, and it will really work better with a nice dramatic plot-based loss.

But what I'm worried about is if the battle becomes something they can't win, my players are going to stop the game and say "this is too hard, can we change things up so this doesn't end in a TPK." Especially since I would have to dimensional anchor the place to keep them from teleporting out, which is also going to get a bit of a cry of foul. I don't want it to be too cheap, but I think the planar adventures will be a nice surprise and it wouldn't be near as much fun if they knew what was coming. But again, I'm worried my players will stop or give up when they see the battle going badly, and it really doesn't work unless I get all of them.

Not a good idea. This being D&D, you´d have to use overwhelming force to kill them in one go, your players will mostly cry "foul!" at that. It´s probably better to get the consent of your players beforehand that they will be sent into a deathtrap dungeon, Cube-style, and die along the way because there´s an "after death session" planned.

[WarKitty]

Wait, you're (intentionally) killing off characters that your players have been playing with for years?

I mean, at this point, this isn't "killed off for real". This is "killed off, but you get to keep all your stuff with you in the afterlife while you quest to get back to your body." You're still playing essentially the same character, just one on an enforced vacation from the material plane.

Not a good idea. This being D&D, you´d have to use overwhelming force to kill them in one go, your players will mostly cry "foul!" at that. It´s probably better to get the consent of your players beforehand that they will be sent into a deathtrap dungeon, Cube-style, and die along the way because there´s an "after death session" planned.

The thing is, I know at least some of my players have also complained about knowing plot twists in advance and how it's not fun anymore.

[Pleh]

I mean, at this point, this isn't "killed off for real". This is "killed off, but you get to keep all your stuff with you in the afterlife while you quest to get back to your body." You're still playing essentially the same character, just one on an enforced vacation from the material plane.

Yeah, this definitely feels like it might be a better to just send them through a portal.

[Florian]

The thing is, I know at least some of my players have also complained about knowing plot twists in advance and how it's not fun anymore.

We´re talking about very heavy railroading and trying to force a predetermined outcome here, else you can´t advance to the "life after death" part of your romp. It´s less fun to actually see behind the illusion, that you´re trying to create, doubting the value of every achievement you had in the game, then simply be asked to "buy in" the planned story arc.

[WarKitty]

We´re talking about very heavy railroading and trying to force a predetermined outcome here, else you can´t advance to the "life after death" part of your romp. It´s less fun to actually see behind the illusion, that you´re trying to create, doubting the value of every achievement you had in the game, then simply be asked to "buy in" the planned story arc.

Hm, talking to a friend who actually knows the players - doing a quick "roll a save, you all pass out and wake up..." at the very beginning of combat might be safer. It's still forcing an outcome, but it's quick enough to be done in a way that it's obviously the D&D version of a cutscene. Overpowered monster does something, everyone crumples, next thing you know you're looking down at your body and there's this weird lava guy who wasn't there before talking to you.

I know them well enough to know they won't be upset once they get there, it's just a matter of them getting there.

Edit: I should also add that they can probably figure out a way to res themselves fairly fast if they want to. That I can deal with via plain old bait - if you go along with my adventure I'll give you some nice artifacts to play with and I'll let you do weird things with time so you can pop back up at the start of the battle.

[Segev]

I strongly suggest going with plane shift or just planar portals as the means to get to the outer planes/afterlives. Maybe do it as a quest to "recover" a fallen friend if one dies in combat. That way, you can have lethal combats and have some of the PCs die, and others escape, then present the escapees the option to pull an Orpheus to rescue their friends by going to the outer planes to find them. Meanwhile, the friends wake up in a mysterious place and have to figure out that, yes, they are dead.

Done right, you could have a split party for a while with the dead PCs not sure what's going on and the live ones only aware something's amiss, hints their friends aren't dead...but then discovering they are. And at that point both groups should realize what's up, and the living PCs have to travel to meet the dead ones, then take the "long way" along your planar romp in the quest to recover the dead ones' lives.

[WarKitty]

I strongly suggest going with plane shift or just planar portals as the means to get to the outer planes/afterlives. Maybe do it as a quest to "recover" a fallen friend if one dies in combat. That way, you can have lethal combats and have some of the PCs die, and others escape, then present the escapees the option to pull an Orpheus to rescue their friends by going to the outer planes to find them. Meanwhile, the friends wake up in a mysterious place and have to figure out that, yes, they are dead.

Done right, you could have a split party for a while with the dead PCs not sure what's going on and the live ones only aware something's amiss, hints their friends aren't dead...but then discovering they are. And at that point both groups should realize what's up, and the living PCs have to travel to meet the dead ones, then take the "long way" along your planar romp in the quest to recover the dead ones' lives.

The thing with plane shift or planar portals is there's 100% no reason for the PC's to not just...plane shift back. Or if a friend dies, there's no reason to not just raise him. This is a high enough level party that they can cast both. I'm not a fan of splitting the party because there's no real good way to do it that doesn't leave people sitting on their hands a lot. I'd have to fiat even more to do that.

[Segev]

The thing with plane shift or planar portals is there's 100% no reason for the PC's to not just...plane shift back. Or if a friend dies, there's no reason to not just raise him. This is a high enough level party that they can cast both. I'm not a fan of splitting the party because there's no real good way to do it that doesn't leave people sitting on their hands a lot. I'd have to fiat even more to do that.

What is the best plane shifting magic at their disposal? Plane shift, itself, comes with a built-in restriction: the material of the fork that makes up the material component. If they plane shift to a destination plane, they may not have what they need to get to the Prime with a single casting. That can make for a quest.

Ultimately, if they CAN plane shift, make USE of that, don't try to fight or restrict it. Send them on this romp, alive. Let them use their abilities. Give them a REASON to go to the planes in question, so they seek them out, rather than trapping them on a journey they must slog through to get back what they once had.

[WarKitty]

What is the best plane shifting magic at their disposal? Plane shift, itself, comes with a built-in restriction: the material of the fork that makes up the material component. If they plane shift to a destination plane, they may not have what they need to get to the Prime with a single casting. That can make for a quest.

Ultimately, if they CAN plane shift, make USE of that, don't try to fight or restrict it. Send them on this romp, alive. Let them use their abilities. Give them a REASON to go to the planes in question, so they seek them out, rather than trapping them on a journey they must slog through to get back what they once had.

That would be very hard the way this game is set up. They have a goal, they're working on that goal. It's very clear that once that goal is completely finished, the game is over. The goal also has a time limit, which means they're not going to do anything that's not completely focused on that goal unless, IC, they don't have a realistic option to progress that goal. They're more likely to just spend a few hours arguing about more and more unrealistic and probably not rules legal ways to accomplish that goal (this being their general reaction to a monster they can't beat - not avoiding it so much as coming up with more and more intricate plots).

They tend to suffer rather much from what I call plot-lock.

[Kardwill]

I know them well enough to know they won't be upset once they get there, it's just a matter of them getting there.

Hmm, I would normally go with the others and ask for their permission first, but if you are absolutely, 100% sure they are going to be okay with it, and you really want to surprise them with it, then put them into the "afterlife" situation from the start, "in media res". Don't try to conceal your railroad under a fudged/unbalanced encouter, but wear it openly, so that they know the game is not about that unwinnable combat/trap. You start the game, say that they are looking at their own corpses, and go from that point. What happened before can be a mystery ("your memories of what happened is fuzzy. You remember... Fire? Darkness? Weirdly, it doesn't sound that important anymore") that will be discovered later, it can be described by the players, or it can be played as a flashback.

The advantage of "playing" the death after it happened is that they won't try to squirm or whine their way out of your impossible fight : If they are okay with it, they can seize it as an occasion for some sweet badass drama, and roleplay it with so that their characters look pretty damn good while they go down. And that combat will be a good way to see their uber-nemesis in full-powered action, so that they are prepared for the rematch (because they WILL want a rematch once they're back to the living)

[Telonius]

If you're set on this, I'd offer a strong hint beforehand that the game isn't over with this particular TPK. Possibly a prophecy: something like, "Only by great sacrifice will Baron McEvil be destroyed; the blood of the Four will be the path to his defeat."

[Segev]

That would be very hard the way this game is set up. They have a goal, they're working on that goal. It's very clear that once that goal is completely finished, the game is over. The goal also has a time limit, which means they're not going to do anything that's not completely focused on that goal unless, IC, they don't have a realistic option to progress that goal. They're more likely to just spend a few hours arguing about more and more unrealistic and probably not rules legal ways to accomplish that goal (this being their general reaction to a monster they can't beat - not avoiding it so much as coming up with more and more intricate plots).

They tend to suffer rather much from what I call plot-lock.

Then I suggest one of two things:

Either do this AFTER they finish their goal, and make it the next plot arc, OR make a new game to pursue the plot you want.

In the first case, give them goals to let them explore the planes, reasons to do so, rather than forcing it on them.

In the second case, you can set it up as the premise. "You all died, and wake up in the afterlife."

[WarKitty]

Hmm, I would normally go with the others and ask for their permission first, but if you are absolutely, 100% sure they are going to be okay with it, and you really want to surprise them with it, then put them into the "afterlife" situation from the start, "in media res". Don't try to conceal your railroad under a fudged/unbalanced encouter, but wear it openly, so that they know the game is not about that unwinnable combat/trap. You start the game, say that they are looking at their own corpses, and go from that point. What happened before can be a mystery ("your memories of what happened is fuzzy. You remember... Fire? Darkness? Weirdly, it doesn't sound that important anymore") that will be discovered later, it can be described by the players, or it can be played as a flashback.

The advantage of "playing" the death after it happened is that they won't try to squirm or whine their way out of your impossible fight : If they are okay with it, they can seize it as an occasion for some sweet badass drama, and roleplay it with so that their characters look pretty damn good while they go down. And that combat will be a good way to see their uber-nemesis in full-powered action, so zthat they are prepared for the rematch (because they WILL want a rematch once they're back to the living)

Keep in mind we're talking about a mid-game setting change, not a new game. So in media res isn't really possible - you're taking existing characters somewhere new for a while, not starting a new game.

Then I suggest one of two things:

Either do this AFTER they finish their goal, and make it the next plot arc, OR make a new game to pursue the plot you want.

In the first case, give them goals to let them explore the planes, reasons to do so, rather than forcing it on them.

In the second case, you can set it up as the premise. "You all died, and wake up in the afterlife."

Yeah, but... then what's the point? The point isn't to have a generic afterlife romp, the point is to do something new in this game with these characters. But I know them well enough that, IC, they'll see it as so important to get their current goal done right now that they won't be able to be diverted unless (again IC) their characters don't have much choice. OOC I think they'd enjoy it however.

Also, how often do you set up new games anyway? I think we started this game in 2014 and it's got a few more years to go.

[Florian]

Also, how often do you set up new games anyway? I think we started this game in 2014 and it's got a few more years to go.

Roughly, once every two years. Story is told then, next one starts with the next game.

[Kardwill]

Keep in mind we're talking about a mid-game setting change, not a new game. So in media res isn't really possible - you're taking existing characters somewhere new for a while, not starting a new game.

Why not? In media res is a perfectly valid way to start a game during an existing campaign. I do it all the time in my games to skip the buildup part of the scenario when I want to speed up things and get right into the middle of the action (which is quite often nowadays, since most of my players are parents and prefer 4-5 hours games every month, and not the weekly 10-12 hours games we did when we were students).

I often will present an interesting situation requiring an immediat decision, sometimes a likely consequence of last month game (I describe a monster horde attacking a village, or an interogation room with a suspicious cop, or one of them running for his life with an important message for the king...), and then ask them where they are / what they are doing. We can see how they got there later (with a flashback, or just by describing it, or asking them about it), but the important part is what they do NOW.

I imagine you do time skip and elipses during your campaign, to skip uninteresting stuff like travels? Well, this is the same, except the time skip included the combat where they got killed, because the interesting part comes after that ^^

[WarKitty]

I imagine you do time skip and elipses during your campaign, to skip uninteresting stuff like travels? Well, this is the same, except the time skip included the combat where they got killed, because the interesting part comes after that ^^

Eh, I'm not sure that's fundamentally different from just fiating them dead at the start of the battle, which is my current plan. Either way you're still taking current characters and sticking them somewhere else regardless of what they were doing.

[Lord Torath]

You've been playing with these players for 3-4 years now, they probably trust you pretty well. I think your "death by fiat" is probably your best bet, followed with a "Trust me, guys; this'll be fun."

[Kardwill]

Either way you're still taking current characters and sticking them somewhere else regardless of what they were doing.

Well sure, but I do that all the time at the start of a game, and I suppose you do, too. "It's 2 weeks after the Vampire incident, and you are in the bus driving to Boston for the Massachusett Women Volleyball Cup. JC, did Jessicah take her witchcraft gear with her, or did you leave your tools in Salem?" / "You're at your favorite inn when your contact from the wizard's guild sits at your table" / "After you delivered your spice shipment to the Sleipnir system, you're flying back to GuildHeim when..."

Of course, it's more complicated if they are right in the middle of something important and urgent, but your afterlife story is going to interupt them anyway, so...

I find the Time skip / In media res more elegant for what you're trying to do, but if you(re more confortable by drawing them into a situation and fiating the result, that can work too. Just don't have them play through an unbalanced, unavoidable combat they don't know they are meant to lose. It would only generate frustration, which is bad stuff during a game.

[Faily]

I think the idea sounds neat. A little interesting change of pace to see what goes on in the afterlife and advance some plot there (meeting ancestors or deities perhaps?). The challenge is of course to make the transition from overwhelming fight to "this isn't the end of your adventure".

If you're set on this, I'd offer a strong hint beforehand that the game isn't over with this particular TPK. Possibly a prophecy: something like, "Only by great sacrifice will Baron McEvil be destroyed; the blood of the Four will be the path to his defeat."

I like this suggestion. It reminds me of one of the Raids in D&D Online, The Shroud, where the entire party has to die to attune the final altar (long story short, you're attuning a set of different altars through different stages). As you prepare to attune the altar, the voice of the NPC assisting you says something along the line of "Your journey to the Lost Moon will be traumatic. Do not abandon your quest, trust in the Shroud".

[Segev]

Yeah, but... then what's the point? The point isn't to have a generic afterlife romp, the point is to do something new in this game with these characters. But I know them well enough that, IC, they'll see it as so important to get their current goal done right now that they won't be able to be diverted unless (again IC) their characters don't have much choice. OOC I think they'd enjoy it however.

Also, how often do you set up new games anyway? I think we started this game in 2014 and it's got a few more years to go.

Either what they're doing is something they can reasonably get done quickly, or "we can't do anything else" falls flat because there's bound to be down-time between steps at some point.

If you want to do it with these characters, just...do it. Either introduce something that puts the current plot on hold, or let them finish up what they're doing and make this the next thing.