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2017-09-30, 08:19 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
I'd like to add a large-scale combat manoeuvre system to 5e, which I suppose is a bit like the Tome of Battle system (except a bit simpler, and without sharing its themes).
There's a lot of work to be done yet, but I've got most of what I call the 'basic' manoeuvres fleshed out. These are supposed to be a bit like cantrips: something you can use whenever.
The highlights are as follows:
- Manoeuvres belong in related groups (agile manoeuvres, brawn manoeuvres, etc.), each of which has a related proficiency
- You have to possess a manoeuvre's proficiency in order to be able to use it
- Basic manoeuvres are "0th level" manoeuvres, and anyone with proficiency in a manoeuvre group can use its basic manoeuvres
- Manoeuvres of 1st-level or higher require a feature from your class or subclass to be able to use, on top of proficiency in their manoeuvre group, or maybe a feat
- You get a pool of manoeuvre slots (edit: henceforth called 'stamina'), which you expend to use manoeuvres of 1st level or higher, and to increase the effective level of manoeuvres (including basic manoeuvres)
- You recover expended stamina when you finish a short or long rest
- Some monsters would be able to use manoeuvres innately, or be able to use manoeuvres the way characters do (depending on the monster)
- This is part of a larger project in which occasional bonus actions are being replaced with standardised quick actions, but if you wanted to use this in your own campaign, just assume anything requiring a "quick" action can be used as a bonus action
I'd like to share what I've got for basic manoeuvres, for two reasons:
(1) To get people's opinions on them thus far. Ideally, a low-level character would at least consider performing a basic manoeuvre rather than a weapon attack.
(2) To cast about for suggestions on some basic manoeuvres suitable for ranged weapons.
The rest of this post is divided into two parts (which may end up being separate posts, depending on word/character limits):
(1) The general rules for manoeuvres
(2) The list and description of basic manoeuvres
(A separate post shows the manoeuvre progression for full-manoeuvre classes, half-manoeuvre classes, and manoeuvre-using subclasses.)
Spoiler: General Rules
Combat Manoeuvres
A combat manoeuvre is a discrete technique, honed through repetitive training, which aims to give its user a crucial advantage in violent situations. Combat manoeuvres can cripple or disarm enemies or rally and protect friends.
While a variety of martial traditions exist, each with its own lexicon and stylistic elements, the majority of their essential aims are the same; as such, combat manoeuvres are presented with the most generic names and effects possible: the GM and players should feel free to change names and add additional descriptive elements to each manoeuvre for flavour.
Manoeuvre Proficiency
Combat manoeuvres are grouped into categories of related manoeuvres, called manoeuvre groups. Such manoeuvres tend to rely on common forms of general physique, types of motion or posture, and technical execution.
Each manoeuvre group has an associated proficiency. In order to use a combat manoeuvre, including a basic manoeuvre, you must be proficient with its associated proficiency group.
For example, in order to use the shove manoeuvre, you must be proficient with the brawn manoeuvre group.
Manoeuvre Level
Every combat manoeuvre has a level from 0 to 6. A manoeuvre’s level is a general indicator of how powerful it is. Basic manoeuvres – the simplest of combat techniques that almost anyone can use, even with minimal training – are level 0. The higher a manoeuvre’s level, the more well-trained (that is, higher level) a character must be to use that manoeuvre. Manoeuvre level and character level don’t correspond directly. Each character class that can use combat manoeuvres shows when it can use manoeuvres of any given level on its class features table.
Known and Prepared Manoeuvres
Before a character can use a combat manoeuvre, he or she must have it firmly fixed in mind and muscle memory. While some characters and monsters know a handful of combat manoeuvres that are always fixed in mind, others, such as warriors, undergo a process of preparing manoeuvres, allowing them to alter the combat manoeuvres they are able to use. This process varies for different classes, as detailed in their descriptions.
In any case, the number of combat manoeuvres a character can have fixed in mind at any given time depends on the character’s level.
Stamina
Regardless of how many combat manoeuvres a character knows, he or she can only use a limited number of them before resting. Maintaining the situational awareness to discern the right moment to use a manoeuvre, and making the changes in posture and motion required to do so, are physically and mentally taxing. Thus, each manoeuvre-using class has a pool of stamina, usually derived from basic characteristics such as proficiency bonus or character level, which quantifies how many manoeuvres a character is capable of using.
When a character uses a combat manoeuvre, he or she expends an amount of stamina equal to the manoeuvre’s level. Expended stamina is no longer available for further manoeuvre use. For example, a 3rd-level warrior has six stamina, and has four remaining after using a 2nd-level manoeuvre. Finishing a short or long rest restores any expended stamina.
Some characters and monsters have special abilities that let them use combat manoeuvres without using stamina. Usually, such creatures have other limits on how often they can use manoeuvres.
Spoiler: Design NoteI'm developing a warrior class that is intended to be a replacement for the fighter as the main "generic martial" class, and one of its main shticks is being the best at combat manoeuvres.
Some characters and monsters have special abilities that let them use combat manoeuvres without using manoeuvre slots. Usually, such creatures have other limits on how often they can use manoeuvres.
Using a Manoeuvre at a Higher Level
Some manoeuvres have more powerful effects if you expend additional stamina to use them, as if they were of a higher level. Any such manoeuvre will include these more powerful effects in its description. You can’t expend stamina to increase a manoeuvre’s level above the highest level of manoeuvre you can use.
If a manoeuvre offers multiple ways to expend additional stamina, expending stamina allows you to benefit from all of them simultaneously unless otherwise specified. For instance, if you expend 3 stamina when using the trample manoeuvre, you can trample up to four eligible creatures, and can undertake the manoeuvre as part of your move instead of using any sort of action.
Basic Manoeuvres
A basic manoeuvre is a manoeuvre that can be used at will, without using stamina and without being prepared in advance. For most characters accustomed to combat, repeated practice has permanently fixed the manoeuvre in their minds and muscle memories, allowing them to produce the effect over and over. A basic manoeuvre’s manoeuvre level is 0.
Spoiler: Using a ManoeuvreUsing a Manoeuvre
When a character uses any manoeuvre, the same basic rules are followed, regardless of the character’s class or the manoeuvre’s effects.
Each manoeuvre’s description begins with a block of information, including the manoeuvre’s name, level, manoeuvre group, key ability, action, components, and range. The rest of a manoeuvre entry describes the manoeuvre’s effect.
Action
The action entry in a manoeuvre’s description defines the sort of action you must take during (or, in some cases, outside of) your turn in order to use the manoeuvre.
Action
Some manoeuvres require your action to use. Such manoeuvres usually have a more complex technique or combination of activity that they can’t be easily undertaken alongside other activity.
Attack
Some manoeuvres are considered equivalent to attacks. When you take an Attack action on your turn, you can forego your attack to use use such a manoeuvre.
In addition, if you have an ability granting you extra attacks when you take the Attack action, you may substitute any number of attacks with eligible combat manoeuvres.
Quick Action
A manoeuvre activated with a quick action is relatively easy to use, such that you can often perform some other, more significant action at the same time. You must use a quick action on your turn to use the manoeuvre, provided that you haven’t already taken a quick action this turn.
Reaction
Some manoeuvres can be used as reactions. These manoeuvres are used in response to some triggering event. If a manoeuvre can be used as a reaction, its description tells you exactly when you can do so.
Spoiler: Design NotesMany manoeuvres requiring a reaction, such as the block or parry manoeuvres, emulate activities that you’re probably doing all the time in combat, such as blocking weapon strikes with your weapon or shield. Why include them, then? Just as an attack roll represents a moment in time when a creature is sufficiently exposed to an injurious attack, most manoeuvres requiring a reaction represent a skilled combatant’s ability to recognise and respond to the threat of such exposure before it’s too late. This comes with an opportunity cost, though, as enough of the combatant’s attention has been used on this reaction such that not enough remains for other possible reactions, such as attacks of opportunity.
Components
A manoeuvre’s components are the physical requirements you must meet in order to use it. Each manoeuvre’s description indicates whether it requires verbal (V), somatic (S), weapon (W), or shield (Sh) components. If you can’t provide one or more of the manoeuvre’s components, you are unable to use it.
Verbal (V)
Some manoeuvres require orders or words of inspiration be shouted across the battlefield; others, intimidating or mocking calls directed at enemies. Thus, a character who is gagged or in an area of silence, such as one created by the silence spell, can’t use a manoeuvre with a verbal component.
Somatic (S)
A few manoeuvres require some sort of gestures, which can be ritualised or improvised. A character using a manoeuvre with a somatic component usually needs at least one free hand.
Weapon (W)
While some manoeuvres can be made without wielding a weapon, such as initiating a grapple, others require that the character using them be holding a weapon in at least one hand. A character who is not wielding any weapons can’t use a manoeuvre with a weapon component.
Shield (Sh)
A few manoeuvres require that the character using them be wielding a shield. A character who is not wielding a shield can’t use a manoeuvre with a shield component.
Targets
A typical manoeuvre requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected. A manoeuvre’s description tells you how many targets there are, whether you target creatures or objects (or both), how far apart they may be, and so on.
A Clear Path to the Target
To target something with a manoeuvre, you must have a line of sight to it, so it can’t be behind total cover. You can target a space you believe to be occupied by an invisible or hidden creature unless the manoeuvre explicitly indicates that you must be able to see the target.
Targeting Yourself
If a manoeuvre targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself, unless the creature must be hostile or specifically a creature other than you.
Key Ability
Most manoeuvres have a key ability. Manoeuvres from the same manoeuvre group generally use the same key ability. A manoeuvre’s key ability is the ability used for ability checks or attack rolls made while using that manoeuvre, and for saving throw DCs to resist the manoeuvre’s effects.
No Key Ability. If a manoeuvre doesn’t have a key ability, it usually doesn’t require that you make any sort of ability check or attack roll to use it, nor does it typically force other creatures to make saving throws against its effects.
Ability Checks
Some manoeuvres call for the user to make a manoeuvre ability check to determine whether they take effect or not. You add the ability modifier of the manoeuvre’s key ability and your proficiency bonus to your die roll for the check.
Attack Rolls
Some manoeuvres call for the user to make a manoeuvre attack roll to determine whether they hit their targets. Your attack bonus with the manoeuvre equals the manoeuvre’s key ability modifier + your proficiency bonus.
Weapon Attack. If a manoeuvre calls for a weapon attack, that is, an attack you make with a weapon you’re holding, you make the weapon attack using the normal ability modifier for the weapon you’re holding, instead of the manoeuvre’s key ability, and you only add your proficiency bonus to the attack if you’re proficient with the weapon.
Saving Throws
Several manoeuvres specify that a target can make a saving throw to avoid some or all of their effects. The manoeuvre specifies the ability that the target uses for the saving throw, and what happens on a success or failure.
The DC to resist one of your manoeuvres equals 8 + the manoeuvre’s key ability modifier + your proficiency bonus.
Combining Manoeuvres
The effects of different manoeuvres add together while their durations overlap. The effects of the same manoeuvre used multiple times don’t combine, however. Instead, the most potent effect – such as the highest bonus – applies while their durations overlap. If neither effect is more potent, the most recently-applied effect cancels any previous effects.
For example, if two warriors use the taunt manoeuvre on the same target, that creature is only affected by the second use of the manoeuvre.
Spoiler: Manoeuvre GroupsManoeuvre Groups
Combat manoeuvres are grouped together if they have properties in common. Manoeuvres are organised into the following groups:
Agile Manoeuvres. Agile manoeuvres are manoeuvres that rely on reflexes, agility, and mobility. They use Dexterity as their key ability.
Brawn Manoeuvres. Brawn manoeuvres are manoeuvres that work via brute force and overpowering enemies. They use Strength as their key ability.
Cunning Manoeuvres. Cunning manoeuvres are manoeuvres that rely on trickery, deceit, and reading an opponent for cues and tells while concealing one’s own. They use Wisdom as their key ability.
Defensive Manoeuvres. Defensive manoeuvres are manoeuvres that allow the character using them to react to avoid attacks, or to act, whether reactively or proactively, to defend and protect others. Most use Strength as their key ability.
General Manoeuvres. General manoeuvres are manoeuvres that are not easily categorised into the other groups, or do not rely on a specific key ability: instead their key ability is determined by their effect, in some cases based on what weapon the character using them is wielding.
Ranged Manoeuvres. Ranged manoeuvres are manoeuvres that modify attacks you make with ranged weapons, or allow you to accomplish some special feat with ranged weapons. Ranged manoeuvres’ key ability is usually the key ability you use to make the ranged attack they are modifying, but it can also be Dexterity.
Tactical Manoeuvres. Tactical manoeuvres allow the character using them to influence combat by rallying, supporting, or commanding their allies. They use Intelligence as their key ability.
Unarmed Manoeuvres. Unarmed manoeuvres represent a variety of throws, kicks, holds, and the like, that you can undertake with unarmed strikes. They use Strength or Dexterity (or your choice of either) as their key ability.
Spoiler: Design NoteThere aren't any basic tactical manoeuvres.
Spoiler: Design NoteAnyone using this system as a basis could easily "re-fluff" the existing manoeuvre groups with fancy names, or even add in new manoeuvre groups reflecting groups of abilities they want to see, to add actual Tome of Battle-style or Path of War-style abilities.
Manoeuvres in Multiple Groups
Some combat manoeuvres belong to more than one manoeuvre group. If so, it is indicated in each applicable manoeuvre’s description. If you are using a combat manoeuvre belonging to more than one manoeuvre group, you must use it in the manoeuvre group you are proficient in, although you can choose the manoeuvre group if you’re proficient in more than one of the groups it belongs to.
For instance, the knockdown manoeuvre belongs to both the agile and brawn manoeuvre group. If you’re only proficient with agile manoeuvres, you can only use knockdown as an agile manoeuvre, using your Dexterity as its key ability. If you’re proficient with both agile and brawn manoeuvres, you can choose to use either your Strength or your Dexterity as its key ability.
Spoiler: Changelog
November 15
- Revised some manoeuvres based on feedback.
November 10
- Revised the structure of this post.
- I've renamed 'manoeuvre slots' to 'stamina'.
- I made some minor revisions to various basic manoeuvres which have to be reflected here.
- Revised the progression tables and stamina totals.
- The third post in this thread, which was another 'bump' post, is being altered to include links to a Google Drive folder on which I've stored PDFs of this system, and links to threads for other levels of manoeuvres in this system (1st-level manoeuvres and so on).
November 1
- For some reason, the taunt manoeuvre revisions that I did in my own set didn't get added here. So it's now revised.
October 25
- Added descriptions of ranged and unarmed manoeuvre groups to the general rules.
- Added the snap shot manoeuvre.
- Revised the aid manoeuvre - it is now the assist manoeuvre, and explicitly refers to the Help action.
- Revised the key ability for cunning and tactical manoeuvres.
- Revised the feint manoeuvre significantly.
- Other miscellaneous modifications to manoeuvres.
October 13-14
- Put the manoeuvre lists into tables for concision.
- Altered my first "bump" post to have summary content.
October 7 (Happy Thanksgiving, fellow Canadians!)
- Added two new manoeuvre groups, the ranged and unarmed manoeuvres. (The latter group is pretty underpowered if you don't have a feature that increases your unarmed strike damage, but that's all right; it's meant to synergise with classes that have just such features.)
- The grapple manoeuvre is now a joint brawn/unarmed manoeuvre. That allows characters who want one of the two manoeuvre groups, but not both, to be able to use grapple itself. Some more exotic "grapple-like" manoeuvres will remain in the preserve of the unarmed manoeuvre group.
Last edited by Composer99; 2017-11-15 at 08:53 AM.
~ Composer99
D&D 5e Campaign:
Adventures in Eaphandra
D&D 5e Homebrew:
This can be found in my extended homebrew signature!
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2017-09-30, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
- Join Date
- Sep 2013
Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
Lists of Basic Manoeuvres
A combat manoeuvre whose name appears in these lists with an asterisk enclosed in parentheses – like so: (*) – belongs to more than one category of combat manoeuvre.
Alphabetical By Manoeuvre Group Aid Agile Manoeuvres Defensive Manoeuvres Block Dirty Trick (*) Block Brace Disarm (*) Brace Charge Dismount Parry Close-Range Shot Dodge Protect Demoralise (*) Feint (*) Dirty Trick Hamstring General Manoeuvres Disarm (*) Knockdown (*) Aid Dismount Lunge Charge Distant Shot Slash Distract Brawn Manoeuvres Dodge Demoralise (*) Ranged Manoeuvres Feint (*) Disarm (*) Close-Range Shot Grapple (*) Grapple (*) Distant Shot Hamstring Knockdown (*) Poison Dart Hardened Fist Shove Snap Shot Knockdown (*) Slam Lunge Trample Unarmed Manoeuvres Parry Grapple (*) Poison Dart Cunning Manoeuvres Hardened Fist Protect Demoralise (*) Rear Kick Rear Kick Dirty Trick (*) Shove Distract Slam Feint (*) Slash Taunt Taunt Trample
Basic Manoeuvre Descriptions
Spoiler: AssistAssist
Basic cunning manoeuvre
Key Ability: Wisdom
Action: 1 attack
Range: Special (see text)
Components: None
You lend your aid to another creature ifighting a common foe. You can use this manoeuvre to take the Help action, instead of taking an action to do so.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, the action requirement for this manoeuvre becomes 1 quick action. If you spend 2 stamina, it becomes 1 reaction instead.
Spoiler: Design NoteThis modifies the Help action.
Originally Posted by Input Appreciated
Spoiler: BlockBlock
Basic defensive manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength
Action: 1 reaction
Range: Self
Components: Sh
You block an incoming blow with your trusty shield. When a creature you can see targets you with a weapon attack, you can use your reaction to block the attack with your shield.
Contest the attack roll targeting you with a manoeuvre ability check. The attack deals no damage if you win the contest, full damage if you lose the contest by 5 or more, and half damage otherwise.
Spoiler: BraceBrace
Basic defensive manoeuvre
Key Ability: None
Action: 1 action (Ready action)
Range: Reach
Components: W (a weapon dealing piercing damage with the versatile or two-handed property)
You can prepare yourself to receive an opponent’s charge. When you take the Ready action on your turn, you can use this manoeuvre to ready an attack against any creature that moves into range.
Until your next turn, if a creature that didn’t start its turn within range moves into range on its turn, you can use your reaction to make a weapon attack against the triggering creature. On a hit, roll the weapon’s damage dice twice.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, you can use this manoeuvre when you take the Attack action by foregoing one of your attacks.
Spoiler: ChargeCharge
Basic general manoeuvre
Key Ability: Special (see text)
Action: 1 action
Range: Special (see text)
Components: None
You charge forward, running into the ranks of your enemies. Move 10 feet in a straight line as part of your action. (This is in addition to moving normally as part of your turn.) Afterward, you may either make a melee weapon attack, use the shove manoeuvre, or use the trample manoeuvre. Once your turn ends, melee attacks against you have advantage until your next turn.
Weapon Attack. You have advantage on your attack roll and you roll your weapon’s damage dice twice on a hit.
Shove. You have advantage on your ability check. If you win the contest, you deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier and you push the target up to an additional 5 feet away.
Trample. Your target has disadvantage on its saving throw, and you roll double the manoeuvre’s damage dice if it fails its save.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 2 stamina when using this manoeuvre, you can use the overrun manoeuvre. If you do so, the target has disadvantage on its saving throw, and you roll double the manoeuvre's damage dice. You can’t spend stamina to increase the effective level of the shove, trample, or overrun manoeuvres if you’re using them as part of this manoeuvre.
Originally Posted by Input Appreciated
Spoiler: Close-Range ShotClose-Range Shot
Basic ranged manoeuvre
Key Ability: By weapon
Action: None (see text)
Range: 5 feet
Components: W (a weapon capable of making ranged attacks)
You surprise the nearby orc with an arrow to the face. When you make a ranged weapon attack against a creature in range, you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes half the attack’s damage.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, the target takes the attack’s normal damage on a hit.
Spoiler: DemoraliseDemoralise
Basic brawn or cunning manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength, Wisdom, or Charisma
Action: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V
Your fearsome countenance terrifies the weak-willed. A creature you can see within range must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or become frightened of you for 1 minute.
An affected target can repeat the Wisdom saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on a successful save.
At Higher Levels. If you spend at least 1 manoeuvre slot when using this manoeuvre, you can reduce the action requirement to 1 attack. In addition, you can choose one additional target per slot expended.
Spoiler: Dirty TrickDirty Trick
Basic agile or cunning manoeuvre
Key Ability: Dexterity, Wisdom, or Charisma
Action: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: None
You resort to underhanded methods to give yourself the upper hand. Choose a creature within range and make a melee manoeuvre attack. On a hit, choose one of the following effects, as long as the target has the appropriate anatomy or clothing.
Ear Slaps. You slap the target’s ears with your hands, pommel, weapon shaft, flat of your blade, and the like. The target is deafened for 1 minute. A deafened target can make a Constitution saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a successful save.
Kick in the Gut. You deliver a hard kick to the target’s guts or groin. The target must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or be weakened until your next turn.
Sand in the Face. You throw or kick sand or a similar material into the target’s eyes. The target is blinded until it takes an action to clear its eyes.
Tangled Clothes. With a swift tug, you pull a key part of the target’s clothing (such as its trousers) into a tangled mess. The target is hindered until it takes an action to readjust its garments. This action provokes opportunity attacks.
You can improvise some other effect for your dirty trick, subject to the GM’s discretion.
At Higher Levels. You can reduce this manoeuvre’s action cost to 1 attack if you spend 1 stamina, and to 1 quick action if you spend 2 stamina.
Spoiler: Design Note"Hindered" is a condition I'm adding with the following effects: "If you are hindered, your speed is halved, and you can't take the Dash action or move at a fast travel pace."
"Weakened" is a condition I'm adding with the following effects: "If you are weakened, halve the damage of your weapon attacks, unless the weapon you are using has the loading property or is otherwise powered mechanically, and you have disadvantage on Strength ability checks."
Spoiler: DisarmDisarm
Basic agile or brawn manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength or Dexterity
Action: 1 attack
Range: 5 feet
Components: None
With the flat of your blade, you swat your enemy’s sword to the ground. Make a melee manoeuvre attack against a creature within range, contested by the target's choice of a weapon attack, Strength saving throw, or Dexterity saving throw. If you win the contest, choose a single object the target is wearing (such as a pendant) or wielding (such as a weapon); the target drops the chosen object to the ground in its space. If you have a free hand you can choose to make the attack with disadvantage to grab the object yourself if you win the contest.
You may not disarm objects that are tightly bound to the target’s body, such as rings, shields worn with straps, gauntlets, or the like, nor may you disarm objects that have been reinforced against disarming.
Spoiler: Design NoteGMs, don’t forget that a character can sheathe a weapon as part of taking an action, and can usually hold a two-handed weapon in one hand (even if they can’t use it), meaning it’s not hard to get a hand free to try and grab an item with this manoeuvre.
Spoiler: DismountDismount
Basic agile manoeuvre
Key Ability: Dexterity
Action: 1 attack
Range: Reach
Components: W (a weapon dealing piercing damage with the two-handed property)
You catch the mounted knight with the hook of your halberd, pulling her to the ground. Make a melee weapon attack against a mounted or flying creature no more than one size larger than you within range. On a hit, the target takes half the attack’s normal damage and is knocked prone, being dragged off its mount if applicable. A mounted target can avoid being knocked prone by succeeding on a Dexterity saving throw.
Spoiler: Design NoteI hadn't originally planned on making this manoeuvre work on flying creatures, but then thought that the kind of thing you would need to do to haul down a mounted warrior would also work, maybe with some modification, against a flying creature.
Originally Posted by Input Appreciated
Spoiler: Distant ShotDistant Shot
Basic ranged manoeuvre
Key Ability: By weapon
Action: None (see text)
Range: By weapon
Components: W (a weapon capable of making ranged attacks)
You fire unerringly at long range. When you make a ranged weapon attack within your weapon’s long range, you don’t have disadvantage on the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes half the attack’s damage.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, the target takes the attack’s normal damage on a hit.
Spoiler: DistractDistract
Basic cunning manoeuvre
Key Ability: Wisdom or Charisma
Action: 1 quick action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V or S
With a series of light swings and jabs, you keep an enemy from bringing its might to bear on one of your allies. Choose a creature within range. The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw, or it has disadvantage on its next attack roll.
Spoiler: DodgeDodge
Basic agile manoeuvre
Key Ability: Dexterity
Action: 1 reaction
Range: Self
Components: None
You duck, weave, and resort to careful footwork to avoid dangerous blows. When a creature you can see targets you with a weapon or spell attack, you can use your reaction to attempt to dodge the attack.
Contest the attack roll targeting you with a manoeuvre ability check. The attack deals no damage if you win the contest, full damage if you lose the contest by 5 or more, and half damage otherwise.
Spoiler: Design NoteConsider renaming the Dodge action if you want to avoid confusion when including this manoeuvre.
Spoiler: FeintFeint
Basic agile or cunning manoeuvre
Key Ability: Dexterity, Wisdom, or Charisma
Action: 1 action
Range: Reach
Components: W
You feign a weakness in your stance, causing your enemy to overreach, leaving a wide-open gap in its own defences. Choose a creature you can see within range. Make a manoeuvre ability check, contested by the target's choice of Wisdom (Insight) or Wisdom (Perception). If you win the contest, you have advantage on your next melee attack against the target.
At Higher Levels. You can reduce this manoeuvre’s action requirement to 1 attack if you spend 1 stamina, to 1 quick action if you spend 2 stamina, and to no action at all if you spend 3 stamina.
Spoiler: GrappleGrapple
Basic brawn or unarmed manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength or Dexterity
Action: 1 attack
Range: Touch
Components: None
You wrestle an opponent into an immobilising headlock. Choose a creature within range. Using at least one free hand, make a manoeuvre ability check, contested by the target’s choice of Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics). The target has advantage on its check if it is larger than you, or disadvantage if it is smaller. If you win, unless the target is two or more sizes larger or smaller than you, it is grappled until it escapes or the grapple ends.
Very Large Creatures. A creature two or more sizes larger than you is not appreciably affected by the grapple. However, until it throws you off or the grapple ends, you can share its space and climb around on it using Strength (Athletics). You have advantage on melee attack rolls against the target while you are clinging onto it.
Very Small Creatures. A creature two or more sizes smaller than you is restrained until it escapes or the grapple ends. On your turn, if the grapple is still in effect, as an attack you can hurl the affected creature up to 30 feet if it is two sizes smaller than you, or up to 60 feet if it is even smaller. The creature takes bludgeoning damage equal to 2d6 + your Strength modifier upon impact. You can make a ranged weapon attack roll with disadvantage to hurl the restrained creature, as if it were a thrown weapon, at another creature or object; on a hit both creatures are damaged as described above, otherwise the hurled creature lands in an unoccupied space next to the target and takes bludgeoning damage as described above.
Moving a Grappled Creature. When you move, you can drag or carry a grappled creature no more than one size larger than you with you, but your speed is halved unless the creature is two or more sizes smaller than you.
Restraining a Grappled Creature. You can use this manoeuvre on a grappled creature, including a creature you are grappling. If you win the contest, the creature becomes restrained. You cannot restrain a creature two or more sizes larger than you in this way.
Ending a Grapple. You can end a grapple on your turn without using an action. A grappled creature can use its action to escape or, if it is two or more sizes larger, throw you off. To do so, it must win a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by your manoeuvre ability check. If you are thrown off a larger creature, you land in an adjacent unoccupied space, or the nearest unoccupied space if none are adjacent. The grappled condition description describes additional means by which a grapple can end.
At Higher Levels. A creature larger than you doesn’t receive advantage on the initial contest to initiate the grapple if you spend 1 stamina for each size category difference between you. In addition, if you do so you can drag the creature as described above, even if it is two or more sizes larger than you.
Spoiler: Design NoteThis replaces the grapple special attack in the PHB. It's a pretty significant rework, but I think it's worth it for the baked-in ability to clamber around a giant, say, and stab it somewhere sensitive, or to allow someone under the effect of an enlarge spell to pick up a goblin and toss it.
Spoiler: HamstringHamstring
Basic agile manoeuvre
Key Ability: Dexterity
Action: 1 attack
Range: Reach
Components: W (a weapon that does piercing or slashing damage)
A swift blow to the lower body slows or topples your enemy. Make a weapon attack against a creature within range. On a hit, the target takes half the attack’s normal damage and is hindered for up to 1 minute.
A hindered target can make a Constitution saving throw at the end of each of its turns; on a success, it is no longer hindered.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, the weapon attack does normal damage, and the target must also succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone.
Spoiler: Design Note"Hindered" is a condition I'm adding with the following effects: "If you are hindered, your speed is halved, and you can't take the Dash action or move at a fast travel pace."
Spoiler: Hardened FistHardened Fist
Basic unarmed manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength or Dexterity
Action: 1 attack
Range: Reach
Components: None
You transfer energy of motion into your punch instead of your movement. Make an unarmed strike. As long as you moved no more than 5 feet this turn, you can add your proficiency bonus to the damage roll.
Originally Posted by Input Appreciated
Spoiler: KnockdownKnockdown
Basic agile or brawn manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength or Dexterity
Action: 1 attack
Range: Reach
Components: None
You sweep your leg out, catching your foe behind the knee and knocking it to the ground. Make a melee manoeuvre attack against a creature within range. On a hit, the target takes bludgeoning damage equal to your key ability modifier and falls prone.
Spoiler: LungeLunge
Basic agile manoeuvre
Key Ability: Dexterity
Action: 1 attack
Range: Reach (see text)
Components: W
You catch a distant foe off-guard with a lunging jab. Make a melee weapon attack against a creature up to 5 feet beyond range. On a hit, the target takes half the attack’s normal damage. Whatever the result of the attack, make a manoeuvre ability check. You provoke an opportunity attack from any creature if you are within its reach and its choice of Wisdom (Insight) or Wisdom (Perception) check exceeds your manoeuvre ability check result. You also provoke an opportunity attack from the target in this way, although it has disadvantage on the attack roll unless you are within its reach when you use this manoeuvre.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, the weapon attack does normal damage.
Spoiler: ParryParry
Basic general manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength or Dexterity
Action: 1 reaction
Range: Self
Components: W (a weapon not possessing the ammunition property)
You turn aside your enemy’s sword with your own. When a creature you can see targets you with a weapon attack, you may use your reaction to parry the attack.
Contest the attack roll with a manoeuvre attack roll. The triggering attack deals no damage if you win the contest, full damage if you lose the contest by 5 or more, and half damage otherwise.
Spoiler: Poison DartPoison Dart
Basic ranged manoeuvre
Key Ability: None
Action: 1 quick action
Range: Self
Components: W (see text)
You’re just more efficient at coating ammunition with poison. You can use this manoeuvre, instead of an action, to apply poison to a single dart.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, you can use this manoeuvre, instead of an action, to apply poison to up to three pieces of ammunition (such as crossbow bolts or arrows). If you spend 2 stamina, you can use this manoeuvre, instead of an action, to apply poison to a single weapon dealing piercing or slashing damage and possessing both the light and thrown properties, such as a dagger or handaxe.
Spoiler: ProtectProtect
Basic defensive manoeuvre
Key Ability: None
Action: 1 reaction
Range: 5 feet
Components: Sh
You extend your shield to protect a wounded comrade. When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you within range, you impose disadvantage on the roll.
Spoiler: Design NoteThis replaces the Protection fighting style.
Spoiler: Rear KickRear Kick
Basic unarmed manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength or Dexterity
Action: 1 attack
Range: Reach
Components: None
You snap a leg out with a swift kick behind you, catching your foe off guard. Make an unarmed strike. You ignore any effect that imposes disadvantage on the attack roll. On a hit, the target takes half the attack’s damage.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, the target takes the attack’s normal damage on a hit.
Spoiler: ShoveShove
Basic brawn manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength
Action: 1 attack
Range: 5 feet
Components: None
You shrug an enemy aside with your shoulder. Choose a creature no more than one size larger than you within range and make a manoeuvre ability check, contested by the target’s choice of Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics). If you win the contest, you push the target up to 5 feet away from you. The target falls prone if your check result wins by at least 5.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, if you win the contest you push the target up to 5 feet in any direction, so long as it does not end up in another creature`s space. Alternately, you can push the target an additional 5 feet away from you for each stamina you spend. You can spend 2 stamina per size category to use this manoeuvre on creatures that are two or more sizes larger than you.
Originally Posted by Input Appreciated
Spoiler: SlamSlam
Basic brawn manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength
Action: 1 attack
Range: Reach
Components: W (a weapon dealing bludgeoning damage)
Your foe sees stars after a ringing blow upside the head. Choose a creature within range and make a melee weapon attack. On a hit, the target takes half the attack’s normal damage and is dazed for 1 minute.
A creature dazed by this effect can make a Constitution saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a successful save.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, the weapon attack does normal damage.
Spoiler: Design Note"Dazed" is a condition I'm adding with the effect: "If you are dazed, you can't take quick actions (bonus actions if you want to import this condition into your game without any other revisions) or reactions."
Spoiler: SlashSlash
Basic general manoeuvre
Key Ability: By weapon attack
Action: 1 attack
Range: By weapon
Components: W (a weapon dealing slashing damage)
You slash open a gaping wound in your enemy’s side. Make a weapon attack against a creature within range. On a hit, the target takes damage of your weapon’s damage type equal to your key ability modifier, and must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or take 1d4 bleed damage at the start of each of its turns until it is treated for bleeding with the Wisdom (Medicine) skill or it regains hit points magically.
At Higher Levels. The weapon attack deals half damage if you spend 1 stamina, or normal damage when you spend 2 stamina.
Originally Posted by Input Appreciated
Spoiler: Design Note"Bleed" damage is a damage type I'm adding to allow this and other abilities to have just this sort of effect: ongoing damage requiring healing of some kind to stop.
Spoiler: Snap ShotSnap Shot
Basic ranged manoeuvre
Key Ability: By weapon
Action: 1 quick action
Range: By weapon
Components: W (a weapon capable of making ranged attacks that doesn't have the loading property)
You quickly follow your first arrow with a second.When you take the Attack action on your turn to make a ranged weapon attack, you can use this manoeuvre to make a second attack with the same weapon (or, if you used a thrown weapon, another thrown weapon with the light property). On a hit, target takes half the attack's normal damage.
At Higher Levels. If you spend 1 stamina, the target takes the attack’s normal damage on a hit. Alternately, if you spend 1 stamina, you can use this manoeuvre with a weapon possessing the loading property.
Spoiler: TauntTaunt
Basic cunning manoeuvre
Key Ability: Wisdom or Charisma
Action: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
With a few choice words and gestures, a nearby opponent perceives you to be the greatest threat – or greatest annoyance. A creature you can see within range must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or have disadvantage on attack rolls targeting creatures other than you until your next turn. If the difference between the save DC and the target’s saving throw result (whether it succeeds or fails) is 5 or less, the target has advantage on attack rolls targeting you until your next turn. Creatures immune to being charmed automatically succeed on their saving throws.
At Higher Levels. You can reduce this manoeuvre’s action cost to 1 attack if you spend 1 stamina, to 1 quick action if you spend 2 stamina, and to no action at all if you spend 3 stamina.
Spoiler: TrampleTrample
Basic brawn manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength
Action: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: None
You stamp on creatures underfoot, smashing fingers and noses and possibly breaking hardier bones. During your move, when you move through the space of a single creature that is smaller than you, or the space of a single prone creature no more than one size larger than you, the target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take bludgeoning damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier, or 2d6 + your Strength modifier if you are a quadruped. In any case, you can’t target more than one creature when using this manoeuvre.
Mounted Combat. If you are mounted on another creature, this manoeuvre’s action requirement is reduced to 1 quick action, and you resolve the manoeuvre’s effects as if your mount used the manoeuvre.
At Higher Levels. You can target one additional creature for each stamina you spend. Alternately, you can reduce this manoeuvre’s action cost to 1 quick action if you spend 2 stamina, and to no action (that is, something you can perform for free as part of your movement) if you spend 3 stamina. While mounted, you can reduce this manoeuvre’s action cost to no action (that is, something you can perform for free as part of your mount’s movement) if you spend 2 stamina.
Originally Posted by Input Appreciated
Last edited by Composer99; 2017-11-15 at 08:52 AM.
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2017-10-03, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
In response to some feedback, and in response to a thought I've just had, I'm editing this post from a "bump" post to something with some actual general content.
To whit:
New Conditions
As part of this work, I came up with some new conditions. Although interspersed throughout the above post whenever they appear, I thought I should have them all here for ease of reference.
Dazed
If you are dazed, you can't take quick (bonus) actions or reactions.
Spoiler: Design NoteThis is sort of like an "incapacitated light". Add this to your game whenever you want an effect from an attack or other circumstance (getting accidentally bonked on the head, perhaps) to affect characters' or monsters' capacity to act in combat without being as strong as incapacitated, which leaves them unable to do anything except move.
Hindered
If you are hindered, your speed is halved, and you can't take the Dash action or move at a fast travel pace.
Spoiler: Design NoteThis is "restrained light". Like dazed, it's meant to expand your ability to hamper characters' or monsters' movement, without having to go whole hog and restrain them.
Weakened
If you are weakened, halve the damage of your weapon attacks unless you are using a weapon with the loading property or that is otherwise mechanically-powered, and you have disadvantage on Strength ability checks.
Spoiler: Design NoteI don't have a different condition that this is meant to be a "lesser" version of. It does, however, fill a niche I felt wasn't represented among the various conditions in RAW.
New Damage Type
I also added a new damage type, bleed damage. As you might imagine from the name, it's mostly used for ongoing damage caused by effects that are particularly notable for opening up gashes in a character or monster. Undead, constructs, plants, and oozes will almost all be immune to bleed damage (vampires might be an exception). Most bleed effects will persist until someone makes a Wisdom (Medicine) check to end them, or the creature affected by them receives magical healing.
Adapting These to Your Game
As you will have noticed, several of the combat manoeuvres "step on" RAW feats and class features. In my pet project, I'm modifying these (and I'll probably share them here over time as well), but if you want to adapt this combat manoeuvre system for your game, you might not want to go so far as that. So here is some information and a few steps you can take to adapt this system to your game.
Progression Tables
I hinted at the progression for classes and subclasses in the OP, but I'd like to spell it out to give people a better idea of how characters will grow in their ability to use combat manoeuvres over time. I'm altering progressions for my pet project, but if you want to adapt these manoeuvres for your game, you'll probably want to use something more like RAW. Like spellcasting, there are three progressions:
(1) Full progression, from 1st to 20th level, with access to the highest-level manoeuvres (which I will share here as I complete them) and to the most stamina.
(2) Half progression, which will start at 2nd level (just like paladin and ranger spellcasting).
(3) Subclass progression, which will start at 3rd level - this is like eldritch knight and arcane trickster spellcasting, and it also matches when most martially-inclined classes choose their subclasses (coincidence?
).
Spoiler: Progression Tables
Full Progression Half Progression Subclass Progression Level Manoeuvre Level Stamina Manoeuvre Level Stamina Manoeuvre Level Stamina 1st 1st 3 - - - - 2nd 1st 4 1st 3 - - 3rd 2nd 6 1st 4 1st 3 4th 2nd 7 1st 4 1st 3 5th 3rd 9 2nd 6 1st 4 6th 3rd 10 2nd 6 1st 4 7th 4th 12 2nd 7 2nd 5 8th 4th 13 2nd 7 2nd 5 9th 5th 15 3rd 9 2nd 6 10th 5th 16 3rd 9 2nd 6 11th 6th 18 3rd 10 3rd 7 12th 6th 19 3rd 10 3rd 7 13th 6th 20 4th 12 3rd 8 14th 6th 21 4th 12 3rd 8 15th 6th 21 4th 13 3rd 9 16th 6th 22 4th 13 3rd 9 17th 6th 22 4th 14 3rd 10 18th 6th 23 4th 14 3rd 10 19th 6th 23 4th 15 3rd 11 20th 6th 24 4th 15 3rd 11
Unlike spells, which have significant power jumps between levels, manoeuvres draw from a common pool of slots, largely since they don't scale as dramatically. (I didn't want them to, since you refresh your pool of manoeuvre slots after short and long rests.)
Basic Manoeuvres and Slot Progression. Obviously, basic manoeuvres aren't normally pertinent to your slots available. However, several basic manoeuvres have improved effects if you spend slots while using them, so it's useful to know how often you could do so at any given level if you wanted to.
Excising Manoeuvres
As I noted earlier in this post, because of other re-tooling, I'm not as concerned about manoeuvres that too closely match existing feats and class features. However, for adapting these to RAW games, you might want to take out such manoeuvres.
Charge (Charger feat) - Alternately, you might want to instead change the feat to say that you can use this manoeuvre when you take the Dash action on your turn without being proficient in its manoeuvre group.
Close-Range Shot (Crossbow Expert feat) - Alternately, you might want to instead change the feat to say that you can use this manoeuvre as a 1st-level manoeuvre without needing to spend stamina and without being proficient in its manoeuvre group.
Demoralise (Berserker Intimidating Presence feature) - Alternately, since I think this subclass feature sucks, you could keep this manoeuvre and change the subclass feature to affect multiple creatures.
Distant Shot (Sharpshooter feat) - Alternately, you might want to instead change the feat to say that you can use this manoeuvre as a 1st-level manoeuvre without needing to spend stamina and without being proficient in its manoeuvre group.
Grapple (its expanded usage negates most of the Grappler feat; you might want to keep some of the bits to deal with creatures much larger or smaller than you that you're grappling, though) - Alternately, you might want to say that the Grappler feat allows you to use this manoeuvre with advantage on your manoeuvre ability check and without being proficient in its manoeuvre group.
Knockdown (the RAW shove special attack) - Alternately, just get rid of the RAW shove special attack.
Protect (the RAW Protection fighting style) - Alternately, just get rid of the RAW fighting style (I'm doing that in my larger retool.)
Shove (the RAW shove special attack) - Alternately, just get rid of the RAW shove special attack.
Manoeuvre Proficiencies
Even if a class doesn't have normal access to manoeuvres, you might want to give them manoeuvre proficiencies so they can use some of these basic manoeuvres. A few examples:
Barbarian: Brawn manoeuvres, and one other manoeuvre group of your choice.
Bard: I'm not sure a bard needs manoeuvre proficiencies to start with (maybe choice of agile or cunning manoeuvres), but the College of Valour bard certainly could add some.
Cleric: You might let clerics with certain domains get manoeuvre proficiencies (either alongside or instead of heavy armour proficiency, say).
Fighter: Either let fighters get all manoeuvre proficiencies, or general manoeuvres plus three other manoeuvre groups of your choice.
Monk: Unarmed manoeuvres. Maybe one other group of your choice.
Paladin: Either brawn or defensive manoeuvres, and two other groups of your choice.
Ranger: Either brawn or agile manoeuvres, and two other groups of your choice.
Rogue: Either giving them a choice between agile or cunning manoeuvres, or simply giving them proficiency with both manoeuvre groups, would be good.
As higher-level manoeuvres become available, you could consider giving the fighter the full stamina progression, and decide whether to give other martial classes half progression or a subclass. The bard, monk, and rogue could do with a subclass.
Then you can have a feat that gives proficiency in, say, three manoeuvre groups of your choice similar to the Skilled feat, possibly also granting a manoeuvre slot and a couple of 1st-level manoeuvres.
Adding Manoeuvre Groups & Manoeuvres
Hopefully, you can see the possibilities for adding your own manoeuvre groups (and individual manoeuvres), and for modifying the existing ones. While the manoeuvres and groups I've developed are meant to be generic, you can always rename them for your setting to be more flavourful and interesting.
For instance, say you want to add some Tome of Battle homebrew content in: easily done - add in a manoeuvre group proficiency for "desert wind" and a few manoeuvres, and you're set!Last edited by Composer99; 2017-11-10 at 03:05 PM.
~ Composer99
D&D 5e Campaign:
Adventures in Eaphandra
D&D 5e Homebrew:
This can be found in my extended homebrew signature!
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2017-10-07, 09:03 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
Links
Here are some links to other threads for this system (as I post them) and for the Google drive containing PDFs.
Google Drive
The PDFs come in "plain" (black and white with grey box) formatting and "fancy" (background pattern and coloured text and box) formatting. I might add versions using D&D PHB-style formatting in the near future.
1st-Level Manoeuvres
Thread for 1st-level manoeuvres here on GitP.Last edited by Composer99; 2017-11-10 at 02:55 PM.
~ Composer99
D&D 5e Campaign:
Adventures in Eaphandra
D&D 5e Homebrew:
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2017-10-12, 12:33 PM (ISO 8601)Barbarian in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
I haven't had a chance to look at these fully through in truth I've only looked at charge, planning to look at the others when I have more time, but I'd say for charge give the person being charged an attack of opportunity, unless you have the charger feat, since that gives a trade off for the higher damage and chance to hit, and a charge is going to open up your defenses as your are running forward in an attempt to launch a stronger offensive attack
I will post my thoughts on the others as I go though but it would be helpful to know how many maneuvers each class has available to them at specific levels and how many slots they have as it is difficult to say much about the balance without knowing that detailIf possible it would be nice to have a table showing the manevuers slots per level, and the max level maneuver they can prep, and how many they can prep and knowLast edited by Llama513; 2017-10-12 at 12:41 PM.
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2017-10-12, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)Barbarian in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
I wouldn't mess with this personally since there already is the help action and having to mentally/physically prepare to help someone doesn't make sense. Originally Posted by Composer99
I like the idea behind this but I think that it should be higher level, as having the ability to completely negate an action is much too powerful to have with out a cost of some kind. Originally Posted by Composer99
In a game without feats I like this, with feats it steps on the toes of sentinel Originally Posted by Composer99
This already a feat, it is covered by crossbow expert, but I like the idea here, if you are going without feats. Originally Posted by Composer99
I'm not sure how to feel about this one as it is very similar to a class feature so I'm iffy about keeping it around, but then again I don't see why other characters wouldn't be able to do this so I'm not sure how to feel. Originally Posted by Composer99
The only thing I would say is possibly a save against the ear slaps Originally Posted by Composer99
This is very close to a battle master maneuver but as it deals no damage I think it's separation is okay, I would just add that you risk an attack of opportunity since if you hit it succeeds no save, and that is how the old disarm worked Originally Posted by Composer99
I'm glad to see an option for this since it wasn't really covered in the original combat section I like this solution Originally Posted by Composer99
As with the other maneuvers that work like feats I think that this is a good option if you aren't using feats, otherwise I would never bother with this Originally Posted by Composer99
This is similar to some class features, but I don't think the classes that they are in really use them, so I like the idea of giving a more open hey hit me ability Originally Posted by Composer99
Like with Block I think that this should be a higher level maneuver completely negating an attack is something that should cost more then just a reaction Originally Posted by Composer99
I really like this as a concept, but I think you should make it a deception check, but that might just be me Originally Posted by Composer99
Originally Posted by Composer99
In a game without feats this is very nice, otherwise if I'm going to be grappling enough that grabbing this maneuver is worth it I would just grab grapplernevermind I just read the other things it lets you do, yeah this is nice
I like this alot Originally Posted by Composer99
Interesting, really cool concept and way of making punches more viable, my worry is how this interacts with monks as it gives them a massive damage boost Originally Posted by Composer99
Nice, really simple and gives a universal trip, which is what I think you should call this. Originally Posted by Composer99
I would say possibly an attack of opportunity for using this, but that would be if you raised the damage for the base one to normal as you are out of position and open for an attack Originally Posted by Composer99
Like with Block and Dodge you can't have a free negate all damage its not balanced Originally Posted by Composer99
You can poison up to 3 pieces of ammunition with an action, I think poisoning just one piece of ammuntion is a free item interaction but I could be reading the text wrong Originally Posted by Composer99
I wouldn't mess with fighting styles, it just feels weird Originally Posted by Composer99
Interesting I like this ability, but I would never use it unless I was a monk, since the damage of an unarmed strike without tavern brawler or a racial thing is 1 + your strength halfing that is not really worth it in terms of damage Originally Posted by Composer99
Simple I like it Originally Posted by Composer99
Dazed I believed was already in 5e not sure though, besides that I like this Originally Posted by Composer99
Simple but effective and very useful Originally Posted by Composer99
See distract Originally Posted by Composer99
I like this, it works nicely and is fairly simple Originally Posted by Composer99
As someone who started in 3.5, and converted over TOB I really do love this conceptLast edited by Llama513; 2017-10-12 at 07:23 PM.
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2017-10-18, 10:08 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
Thanks for your input! Replies below.
Aid
Originally Posted by Composer99
I suppose that's fair enough. I had two thoughts in mind when making this a combat manoeuvre: first, someone without a whole lot of strong technical training might not be sufficiently good at helping another creature in combat in the way specified by the Help action (granting advantage), and second, the Help action is almost always a terrible choice of your action each turn. (There was a thread here, IIRC, in which someone crunched numbers and showed that it's better to make two normal attacks than one attack with advantage, or two attacks with disadvantage than one normal attack.) Originally Posted by Llama513
With these thoughts in mind, I made this a basic manoeuvre (so you have to have proficiency with the appropriate manoeuvre group to use it), and I gave it the upgrade option.
After some further thought, though:
- You're correct, at least for the baseline action: it should remain the generally available Help action.
- The upgrade is too costly. Instead, the basic manoeuvre (which I will rename "Assist" in order to avoid conflict with the aid spell) can let you use the Help action by foregoing an attack, and spending extra slots will allow you to use a quick (bonus) action, or even a reaction, to use the manoeuvre.
Block
Originally Posted by Composer99
I'm not convinced that this manoeuvre is overpowered as an "at-will" manoeuvre: Originally Posted by Llama513
- First, you need to use your reaction, so you can only do it once per round; when fighting multiple monsters or monsters with multiattack, it'll only take you so far.
- Apropos of the same point, there's the opportunity cost of using your reaction, making it unavailable for other uses.
- Third, as written, you don't know whether the attack hit or missed your AC before using it; you commit to using the manoeuvre and contest the roll. As such, you could very well end up wasting the manoeuvre, in effect, and your reaction along with it. (This might not be entirely clear, so I could tighten up the language.)
- Fourth, this manoeuvre replaces your stable, reliable AC with a d20 die roll, and there's a considerable risk in doing so. For this manoeuvre to be worthwhile, then, the attack you avoid has to have rolled high enough to have gotten past your AC to begin with (but, as per the previous point, you won't know whether that's the case or not when you choose to use this manoeuvre).
Speaking of clearing up language, the final clause is meant to include ties, but I think maybe the safe bet might be to add "(including ties)" to it.
That said, suppose you suffer no damage if you roll a 20 on your die roll, half damage if you win or tie the contest, and full damage if you lose. Does that seem a bit more to your liking?
Brace
Originally Posted by Composer99
I'm looking at the text for Sentinel, and I'm not really seeing any connection. Perhaps you mean Polearm Master? With that feat, other creatures provoke an opportunity attack when they enter your reach. I think this manoeuvre's effect (and in particular, its action cost over and above the reaction used for an opportunity attack) make it distinctive enough from the feat that the two could comfortably coexist. Originally Posted by Llama513
Charge
Originally Posted by Composer99
I feel like giving up advantage on melee attacks against you until your next turn is a significant enough drawback for the feat. Provoking an opportunity attack from your target might be too much on top of that. That being said, maybe if your defences are exposed, why stop at melee attacks? Maybe ranged attacks against you should have advantage, too. Altogether that seems like a good enough "benefit now, pay later" for what you get. Originally Posted by Llama513
Incidentally, the overrun manoeuvre is a 1st-level manoeuvre; using it as an add-on to charge costs one more slot on account of the fact that both manoeuvres cost an action. Although, you don't really get very much by tacking this on to overrun except 10 extra feet of movement and giving up advantage on attacks against you. So maybe I should buff the effect when added to charge.
For reference, the effect of overrun is:
Spoiler: OverrunOverrun
1st-level brawn manoeuvre
Key Ability: Strength
Action: 1 action
Range: 5 feet
Components: None
You charge an enemy position, pushing through the defender’s line and breaking their formation. Once you’ve finished moving on your turn, as long as you have moved at least 10 feet, choose a creature within range that is up to one size larger than you. The target must make a Strength saving throw. On a failure, the target falls prone in its space and takes bludgeoning damage equal to 1d8 + your Strength modifier, and you move through the target’s space to the nearest unoccupied space on the other side of the target from your current position. On a success, the target takes half damage, is not knocked prone, and you may not move through its space.
(I should probably add in extra damage if you're a quadruped, and possibly some scaling effect, but this is just as a reference for discussing the charge manoeuvre.)
Close-Range Shot
Originally Posted by Composer99
I adjusted one of my earlier posts to include suggestions for adapting these manoeuvres to RAW games, including manoeuvres you can leave out if they're too close to feat effects. Originally Posted by Llama513
Demoralise
Originally Posted by Composer99
This manoeuvre system is supposed to go along with a re-tool in which the berserker "Intimidating Presence" feature is buffed, on the view that the giant muscled half-orc who is snarling, swinging a huge axe, and possibly foaming at the mouth, shouldn't need to use an action to frighten a single creature - and especially as a feature gained at 10th level. Originally Posted by Llama513
With that in mind, this manoeuvre wouldn't step on that feature's toes. As I've added in the second post's generic comments, this is a manoeuvre you can feel free to leave out if you want to protect that particular niche in RAW.
Dirty Trick
Originally Posted by Composer99
The deafened condition is probably weak enough that it isn't strictly necessary, but it's a good idea. I'll add in the 5e Con save ends text. Originally Posted by Llama513
Disarm
Originally Posted by Composer99
I can't say I'm keen on having manoeuvres provoke opportunity attacks, since that, at least in my opinion, makes them far too risky to be worth undertaking. Originally Posted by Llama513
If you think it's overpowered, I suppose it could be a contest (you make a manoeuvre ability check, contested by the target's choice of Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics), so that you (a) can't guess what fixed number you have to beat, and (b) even without proficiency in either skill, there's a good chance its check result will be higher than its AC. I think disarming a creature when you could be killing it or casting a spell on it is a weak enough option that this isn't strictly necessary, though.
Dismount
Originally Posted by Composer99
Thanks! I did think the mounted combat rules could have used a little extra fleshing out, and this gives characters (and, to a lesser extent, monsters and NPCs) a better chance to interact with mounted creatures. Since dealing with flying creatures can be a pain, I thought the same skillset could be used to haul them out of the sky if they got too close. Probably should specify an upper size limit on the flying target unless you spend a couple of slots. Originally Posted by Llama513
Distant Shot
Originally Posted by Composer99
I've mentioned in a revised earlier post that this is a good manoeuvre to remove if you're using the RAW feats. That said, the feat gives you the full-damage version of this manoeuvre for free all the time, whereas when using this manoeuvre you have to spend a limited resource to get full damage, so you could probably accommodate both. Originally Posted by Llama513
Distract
Originally Posted by Composer99
Thanks! It occured to me that this is awfully similar to the taunt manoeuvre, so I revised it in my source document so that the target just has disadvantage on its next attack roll - the idea being that taunt is more of a "hey hit me!" kind of ability, while this manoeuvre is more of a "hey look over there!" kind of ability. I guess either that revision didn't make its way here, or (more likely) the revision happened after I posted this stuff. I'll revise it at some point upthread. Originally Posted by Llama513
Dodge
Originally Posted by Composer99
I've already laid out why I thought the block manoeuvre was reasonable; since the same logic applies here, I won't rehash it. Originally Posted by Llama513
Feint
[/QUOTE]Spoiler: Feint
Basic agile or cunning manoeuvre
Key Ability: Dexterity or Charisma
Action: 1 action
Range: Reach
Components: W
You feign a weakness in your stance, causing your enemy to overreach, leaving a wide-open gap in its own defences. A creature you can see within range must succeed at a Wisdom saving throw or you have advantage on your next attack roll targeting it or until it moves out of range.
At Higher Levels. You can reduce this manoeuvre’s action cost to 1 attack if you spend at least 2 manoeuvre slots, and to 1 quick action if you spend at least 3 manoeuvre slots.
I suppose it could be a manoeuvre ability check contested by the target's passive Wisdom (Insight) (or passive Perception since every monster has that written in their statblock). Deception, I think, is too broad a proficiency to have it be the standard ability for a martial technique that even a character who is terrible at lying (or just won't lie) in social situations would freely use in a fight. Originally Posted by Llama513
Grapple
Originally Posted by Composer99
I really wanted to formally provide options for dealing with much larger and much smaller creatures. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. Originally Posted by Llama513
Hamstring
Originally Posted by Composer99
That makes me confident I got the balance down pat, then. Originally Posted by Llama513
Hardened Fist
Originally Posted by Composer99
I don't know that it makes ordinary unarmed strikes better enough to be usable; it's more meant as a trade-off for monks and other unarmed combat specialists (of which I'm introducing one or two as subclasses) - either fight with mobility, or fight with oomph. Originally Posted by Llama513
My understanding is that monk damage falls away compared to other melee classes; this is partly made up for by the monk's mobility and status effects - and indeed, the monk probably works best as a mobile. But if you just want your monk to go all Bruce Lee/Jackie Chan on someone, now you can - at the risk of being more easily cut down, because you're not keeping yourself moving.
Knockdown
Originally Posted by Composer99
Actually, at first I did call it trip, but decided to rename it after making it a joint agile/brawn manoeuvre. For instance, a hulky barbarian with proficiency in brawn manoeuvres isn't going to knock an opponent prone by swinging her feet around and tripping it: she's going to head butt it, or bludgeon it to the ground. A nimble elf, in the meantime - he's going to catch his foe behind the knee and send it sprawling. But I didn't see much point in distinguishing these mechanically as separate manoeuvres, so I just call this knockdown (since either way, your target is knocked prone). Originally Posted by Llama513
Lunge
Originally Posted by Composer99
I've already noted that I'm reluctant to cause manoeuvres to provoke opportunity attacks. Halving the damage is probably already enough to dissuade characters from using it unless they think the extra reach is absolutely necessary. Originally Posted by Llama513
Parry
Originally Posted by Composer99
See block for the full discussion. Originally Posted by Llama513
Poison Dart
Originally Posted by Composer99
Looking at the "Interacting with Objects Around You" sidebar in the Combat chapter, it certainly seems reasonable to believe that you could coat a single piece of ammunition with poison in tandem with your movement and action. That said, if "withdraw a potion from your backpack" counts, why shouldn't "douse your dagger with poison"? (The latter, of course, is explicitly called out as an action in the description of the basic poison in the Equipment chapter.) Originally Posted by Llama513
As such, I'm kind of assuming a more restrictive view of coating a weapon with poison. Although now I come to think of it, the slot costs to boost this manoeuvre are probably too high.
Protect
Originally Posted by Composer99
In the larger re-tool I'm undertaking, Protection and Defence fighting styles are removed. In a RAW game, I'd remove this manoeuvre instead. Originally Posted by Llama513
Rear Kick
Originally Posted by Composer99
Oh, for sure. Most manoeuvres in the unarmed group aren't very good unless you have some kind of improved unarmed strike. My intent with them wasn't really to make unarmed strike in and of itself viable, but to give interesting options to people who fight unarmed - in other words, those who already have boosted unarmed strike damage. Originally Posted by Llama513
Shove
Originally Posted by Composer99
I tinkered with the shoving special action from RAW to get this, although re-reading it makes me think I should include some sort of restriction on affecting larger creatures (unless you spend slots, of course). Originally Posted by Llama513
Slam
Originally Posted by Composer99
Thanks! (Dazed isn't already a condition; I just checked.) Originally Posted by Llama513
Slash
Originally Posted by Composer99
Thanks! Originally Posted by Llama513
Taunt
Originally Posted by Composer99
I believe the closest parallel is the battlemaster's goading attack, which is strictly superior (in that you can do it alongside a weapon attack and deal additional damage); the tradeoff is the use of a short-rest resource where this manoeuvre just uses action economy unless you wnt to upgrade it. Originally Posted by Llama513
Trample
Originally Posted by Composer99
Great! Originally Posted by Llama513
Glad to hear it. I should add I rather like your TOB adaptation for 5e. Originally Posted by Llama513
~ Composer99
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2017-10-19, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
I just want to say that this is awesome. I've been enjoying 5e, but now that everyone at my table is familiar with the rules, I have been missing the old maneuvers and combat options from 3.5 and Pathfinder. And it just so happens I'm running a very combat-heavy campaign right now.
I'm going to try out the basic maneuovres in my game based on the class proficiences you suggested (though probably without the scaling for now). I'll let you know how it goes.
A couple other ideas I had for additional maneuvers after reading this. Apologies if this is similar to something you already had in mind.
- Prepare: Basically an anti-maneovre. Negate maneuovres made by certain enemies (adjacent perhaps).
- Pursue: Follow retreating enemies, potentially even ones who disengage.
- Lock Down: Prevent enemies from disengaging.
Last edited by Plantae; 2017-10-19 at 01:10 PM.
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2017-10-19, 04:00 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
Thanks! If you're thinking of trying these in a game, even better! That's probably one of the best ways to evaluate the manoeuvres. (I'm not running a game with anyone right now, so I haven't had a chance to test these myself.) Originally Posted by Plantae
I just want to say that this is awesome. I've been enjoying 5e, but now that everyone at my table is familiar with the rules, I have been missing the old maneuvers and combat options from 3.5 and Pathfinder. And it just so happens I'm running a very combat-heavy campaign right now.
I'm going to try out the basic maneuovres in my game based on the class proficiences you suggested (though probably without the scaling for now). I'll let you know how it goes.
A couple other ideas I had for additional maneuvers after reading this. Apologies if this is similar to something you already had in mind.
- Prepare: Basically an anti-maneovre. Negate maneuovres made by certain enemies (adjacent perhaps).
- Pursue: Follow retreating enemies, potentially even ones who disengage.
- Lock Down: Prevent enemies from disengaging.
If you want a nice PDF copy of the manoeuvres, I can put them up on Google docs or email them to you - just let me know (by PM if necessary). (I didn't do them up on the homebrewery, so I don't have a link.)
Also, thanks for the ideas. I've a "Pursue"-style manoeuvre in the set of 1st-level manoeuvres, but hadn't thought of the others.~ Composer99
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2017-10-20, 06:51 AM (ISO 8601)Orc in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
Minor suggestion - the name "Brawn" stands out from the others, because the rest of the names are adjectives. "Brawny" or "Forceful" or something like that might fit in better.
EDIT: Ah! What about "Brutal" as a name?Last edited by Durazno; 2017-10-20 at 06:59 AM.
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2017-10-20, 11:42 AM (ISO 8601)Dwarf in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
Cunning and tactical maneuvers should be using INT, using CHA only increases the problems of CHA heavy parties and INT as the ubiquitous dump stat.
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2017-10-21, 07:36 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
I see what you mean about the word types. I picked the names as category names without really considering noun/adjective natures. As a name of a category, "brawn manoeuvre" sounds better, read aloud, than "brawny manoeuvre", at least in my view. I suppose I view the words as category names, much like the spell school names; for instance, in the term "piano lesson", piano is treated a category/grouping/sorting adjective of lesson, even though piano itself does not have a formally-defined adjective form. That's sort of how I thought of the terms I used for the manoeuvre groups. Originally Posted by Durazno
All that said, I do like "brutal". I'll adopt that change.
That's an excellent point about overloading Charisma. I don't think Intelligence is quite the ability score I'd have in mind for cunning manoeuvres, since they don't strike me as manoeuvres you undertake based on a tactical assessment of the combat situation. But Intelligence for tactical manoeuvres (which will start appearing once I post 1st- and higher-level manoeuvres) and Wisdom for cunning manoeuvres seems like a good fit to me. Originally Posted by Consensus
~ Composer99
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2017-10-25, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
All right, so I've finally made some revisions. Most are noted in the change log, but here are a few:
(1) I added a new manoeuvre, snap shot.
(2) The aid manoeuvre is now the assist manoeuvre, and explicitly defines itself in relation to the Help action - that is, it is an improvement upon, rather than a replacement for, the Help action.
(3) Changes to the general rules to account for new manoeuvre groups
(4) Some other revisions, particularly to feint.
Key Abilities
I've made the key ability for cunning manoeuvres either Wisdom or Charisma. Some manoeuvres, such as feint, you could go either way with; others, such as taunt, are a bit more obviously Charisma-based. But to give players the option (and to keep Charisma from being a universally important ability score), I made this change. I did something similar for tactical manoeuvres, although none of these appear in the set of basic manoeuvres.
Block/Dodge/Parry
Further to feedback that these were too strong, I am curious as to what some decent alternatives would be. I want to keep them as basic manoeuvres, largely for the benefit of non-fightery types (bards, clerics, and rogues, in particular) who might want to use basic manoeuvres but might not get to the point where they get manoeuvre slots.
For instance, what if these manoeuvres added your proficiency bonus to your AC against one attack?~ Composer99
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2017-10-25, 09:48 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
So I tried a bunch of different options, and none of them sound as good read aloud as "brawn", nor look as good on the page. As such, I think I'm going to stick with "brawn" as the category name. Originally Posted by Durazno
~ Composer99
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2017-11-10, 11:36 AM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
Apart from 'bumping' this thread for 'bump' reasons, I wanted to mention some other major changes in a fresh post. (These are also in the changelog.)
First, and foremost, "manoeuvre slots" have been renamed "stamina". The former term was kind of clunky at four syllables and 15 characters (including the space), where "spell slots" has only two syllables and 11 characters, and feels like it takes up less space because of all the l's, and "stamina" has three syllables and, most importantly, seven characters.
Second, I've added a link to a Google drive folder with PDFs of the general rules and of basic manoeuvres. I intend to add 1st-level manoeuvres some time today or over the weekend on a separate thread.
Edit to Add:
Also, I would appreciate input about stances - which in this system would be minute-long abilities providing a minor buff after being activated with a quick action. What sort of stances do people think would be appropriate as basic manoeuvres?
Oh, and also, giqio:
Come again?but this is just as a reference for discussing the charge manoeuvre.Last edited by Composer99; 2017-11-10 at 12:43 PM.
~ Composer99
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2017-11-10, 03:31 PM (ISO 8601)Pixie in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
I had to read it a few times but the descriptions helped me understand later what this all was.
If something can be done to simplify it a bit that would be welcomed.
Otherwise it looks interesting.
In short you made martial spells.
It's nice if not a bit too complex I think, I mean it would be nice if these were tied to weapons as part of what the weapons do if you are proficient with them.
And by part of I mean in the official material, because yea I agree where this is coming from that martial folks are missing out a bit in different things they can do at base.
However I think maybe this goes a bit too far in that its very dense which normally isn't a bad thing but I mean these are a lot of different things.
Maybe 2 or 3 maneuvers per weapon or weapon type?
Then you can have them scale in a way to show refinement or diversity?
As it is though they are very good but it's going to take me a while to read through all of this.Check out a class I'm working on: Sigil
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2017-11-13, 04:06 PM (ISO 8601)Barbarian in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
For starters allow me to apologize for taking forever to respond
I think that will work nicely as a fix Originally Posted by Composer99
I think that with your arguments that leaving as the full damage block is fine, but keep the other option in mind if playtesting reveals this and the maneuvers like it to be too strong Originally Posted by Composer99
Thats fair, and my bad I misread the feat, it is Polearm Master. Originally Posted by Composer99
I think the advantage to all attacks works nicely as for using overrun in conjunction with charge maybe have it be 2d8 damage Originally Posted by Composer99
My bad I didn't catch that in responding to the maneuvers, those answer my issues involving feats. Originally Posted by Composer99
Demoralise
This manoeuvre system is supposed to go along with a re-tool in which the berserker "Intimidating Presence" feature is buffed, on the view that the giant muscled half-orc who is snarling, swinging a huge axe, and possibly foaming at the mouth, shouldn't need to use an action to frighten a single creature - and especially as a feature gained at 10th level.
With that in mind, this manoeuvre wouldn't step on that feature's toes. As I've added in the second post's generic comments, this is a manoeuvre you can feel free to leave out if you want to protect that particular niche in RAW.
[/QUOTE]
Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense and I like this maneuver in that context
Glad I could help with this one Originally Posted by Composer99
I think the saves is a good choice, since removing a weapon in the midst of combat is a difficult task and something that a skilled warrior will have defenses against Originally Posted by Composer99
I definitely agree on the size limit based on slots spent Originally Posted by Composer99
See close-range shot Originally Posted by Composer99
I really like it and it is also possible that I misinterpreted the ability to be closer to taunt then it is Originally Posted by Composer99
See Block Originally Posted by Composer99
Originally Posted by Composer99
I suppose it could be a manoeuvre ability check contested by the target's passive Wisdom (Insight) (or passive Perception since every monster has that written in their statblock). Deception, I think, is too broad a proficiency to have it be the standard ability for a martial technique that even a character who is terrible at lying (or just won't lie) in social situations would freely use in a fight.
[/QUOTE]
I guess that is fair, so long as it is a contest I'm okay with that
It works quite nicely indeed Originally Posted by Composer99
Glad I could affirm the balance Originally Posted by Composer99
That's fair Originally Posted by Composer99
Fair explanation for the name Originally Posted by Composer99
Mechanically you are probably right, I just feel that flavor wise it doesn't quite fit as a lunging attack is going to open you up to being attacked as you are out of position and recovering quickly is difficult Originally Posted by Composer99
See block Originally Posted by Composer99
Gotcha, and the slot costs are definitely too high, unless you already lowered them since I last responded Originally Posted by Composer99
That makes sense Originally Posted by Composer99
Cool glad to see more options for monks Originally Posted by Composer99
Indeed, similar to dismount Originally Posted by Composer99
Glad to help Originally Posted by Composer99
You're Welcome Originally Posted by Composer99
Indeed Originally Posted by Composer99
Glad to help Originally Posted by Composer99
Glad you enjoy it Originally Posted by Composer99
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2017-11-14, 12:31 AM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
I see where you're coming from when it comes to "martial spells". In all fairness, though, you could pretty well format any "thing a character can do" as if it were a spell. I think it's hard to come up with a long list of abilities, especially if you want them available to multiple classes, separate systematic properties from their texts (such as range, components, and the like), and not have them end up looking like spells in structure and format. Originally Posted by Arte
When I was working my way towards this system, I did think of adding in "weapon tricks", which could have been a bit like manoeuvres per weapon or weapon type. What I found, though, was a lot of the time, I didn't want to restrict a manoeuvre to a weapon type (except very broadly, for instance, the slam manoeuvre requiring weapons dealing bludgeoning damage), and if I had a small list of the most universal manoeuvres plus "weapon tricks", I had an even more unwieldy list of special abilities to reckon with.
At around 27 abilities, this is a pretty hefty list, I won't deny it. It might be worth having a "simple manoeuvres" list of about a dozen of the most iconic manoeuvres (largely restricted to options that people playing 3.5, PF, and, to a lesser extent, 4e, would be familiar with). I'm not sure that's a task I'd want to take on just now, since I'm trying to finish up the rest of the system as is.
Re: Scaling
You bring up an interesting point here, one that I wanted to specifically address.
The scaling for these manoeuvres comes in two varieties:
- Similarly to spells, many manoeuvres have a linearly-enhanced effect when you spend stamina on them. You can use the manoeuvre on more targets, it does more damage, or you can use it on bigger targets - those are the most common modifiers. Unlike cantrips, these manoeuvres don't have "inherent" scaling. Maybe they should? I'm not sure yet.
- More interestingly, this manoeuvre system allows you to play around with manoeuvres' action costs. That means you can combine basic manoeuvres and regular weapon attacks into something approaching martial arts forms, something you can't do with spells.
I don't quite know if that's a satisfactory response. (It's getting quite late at night, so I'm not really thinking straight as of this writing.) But hopefully it provides you with some useful insight into my thought process.~ Composer99
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2017-11-14, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)Bugbear in the Playground
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Re: Combat Manoeuvre System - Basic Manoeuvres
No worries! Originally Posted by Llama513
For the sake of brevity, I'll only respond to/address points/manoeuvres where you've had more input.
Block/Dodge/Parry
Originally Posted by Composer99
Originally Posted by Composer99
Definitely. I've got a couple of possible weaker options that might work if playtesting finds the current ones are overpowered. Originally Posted by Llama513
Charge
Originally Posted by Composer99
That's a good idea. For 2 stamina cost, I think I'll also penalise the target's saving throw somehow. Originally Posted by Llama513
Close-Range Shot
Originally Posted by Composer99
You needn't apologise; I made that edit sometime after your post. Most likely in response to it, in fact. (I also ended up adding in possible re-wording of feats if you wanted to retain the manoeuvres instead.) Originally Posted by Llama513
Disarm
Originally Posted by Composer99
I ended up going with saving throws, and subsequent to our earlier exchange revised the manoeuvre accordingly. So now, you make a manoeuvre ability check, and the creature contests it with a saving throw. Although... now that you mention the "skilled warrior" thing, maybe it would be better if you make a manoeuvre attack and the creature contests it with a weapon attack roll, so that its martial skill comes into play. Originally Posted by Llama513
Dismount
Originally Posted by Composer99
I ended up imposing a size limit on the manoeuvre, and didn't include the option to spend more stamina (the new term for slots) to target larger creatures. The manoeuvre's been revised in the second post of the thread. (Upon further reflection, I'd rather that particular ability (haul a flying dragon down from the air!) belong to a feat or a subclass feature.) Originally Posted by Llama513
Feint
Originally Posted by Composer99
I originally had it that you made a check, contested by the target's passive Perception, but as of this writing I've revised it so that you make your manoeuvre ability check, and the target makes a Wisdom (Insight) or (Perception) check (it's choice) to contest. I'll update the post with all the manoeuvre descriptions later. Originally Posted by Llama513
Lunge
Originally Posted by Composer99
Upon further reflection, I'm inclined to agree that lunging should leave you out of position somehow. With the half damage, I don't want to make it too penalising. Perhaps you have to make a manoeuvre ability check, and you provoke opportunity attacks from nearby creatures if their Wisdom (Insight) or Wisdom (Perception) checks - their choice - exceed your ability check. You can provoke an opportunity attack from the target in the same way, but it has disadvantage on the attack roll unless you were already within its reach. Originally Posted by Llama513
Poison Dart
Originally Posted by Composer99
I have indeed lowered them in the meantime. I'll make a point of adding a design note that GMs who want to be less restrictive about the action cost for poison use can dispense with this manoeuvre. Originally Posted by Llama513
Shove
Originally Posted by Composer99
Size restriction duly added. Originally Posted by Llama513
Thanks again for all your input! It's much appreciated, and has definitely helped refine this system.~ Composer99
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