Making Angels fall

[Partysan]

I am currently playing a dex-based melee combatant in a high power pre-epic campaign (using ultimate classes and fantastic feat fix of Szatany from the wotc boards).
During that campaign we tried to get a kind of evil artifact (oh right, evil group, forgot to mention) that was guarded by a solar. Now I knew that we could not defeat him but he was kind of a pelor-type as he was polite and refused to attack us if we didn't attack him or tried ro grab the artifact so we could tease him all the time.
Now I talked to him quite a time about good and evil and so on and actually got our DM stuck in the discussion (and he is a master talker) and so the solar got stuck too. I managed to talk to him in a way that he lost his believe in the Good. So he lost all of his angelic powers.

Questions are:

Would you let a player get away with that?
Do you actually think that a Solar can fall?
Do you think that we should defeat him/our DM wanted us to? (because we wouldn't have had a chance, after all he was CR 22 the least)
And... do you think I should get tje XP for defeating him that way?

[Dervag]

I would think that an angel is no more likely to be persuaded to fall than a devil is to be persuaded to rise. Good alignment is wired into their nature; they are as sure of their alignment as of their own name. It should require epic-level effects to change an angel's alignment.

But if you pull it off you deserve XP.

[Zeful]

1: Yes I'd let a player do so.
2: No I don't think a solar could fall.
3: No, if you can't beat them join them, or failing that, have them join you.
4: Yes, you overcame the encounter, thus experiance.

[Corolinth]

The fact that he's stumped on a question shouldn't cause a real angel to fall from grace. Chaotic and lawful angels stump one another all the time.

Yes, a solar can fall and become evil. That's actually the premise for the archdukes of Hell in the second Fiendish Codex. A mortal asking a puzzling question is not sufficient, however.

[Arbitrarity]

What sort of argument did you use?

[PinkysBrain]

Would you let a player get away with that?

Nah, he's not a robot and you are not James T. Kirk confusing him with a seeming paradox :)

Do you actually think that a Solar can fall?

Sure, but his powers aren't alignment powered ... he would have to shift deities for his clerical casting, but in the mean time he can still use all his already prepared spells.

[Ulzgoroth]

In order:
-Just because you out-argue the DM doesn't necessarily mean you talk rings around the NPC. Talking a Solar into alignment change is presumably possible in theory, but shouldn't be that easy. Where by 'that easy' I mean 'in any sense likely to have happened in the entire history of the multiverse'.

-A Solar can definitely change alignment. Which of its abilities, if any, it should lose or change as a result is an interesting question...probably its clerical spellcasting, at least, should go away until it atonements to it's new alignment.

-Unless there was a special gadget you were expected to obtain to equalize things somehow, hopefully you weren't supposed to win that by opposing the angel. Though if you were on the high side of level 15, it might be beatable.

-If you overcame the obstacle, and it sounds like you did...yes, you should get some sort of XP. Probably not based on the normal CR of the creature, since it never posed a combat threat.

[Partysan]

Well, I consider it more than a puzzling question... we had a 20 minutes in-character argument in which I managed to kind of "prove" that good deeds produce more evil than good in the world and thus his work is actually damaging... my whole argument is tied to my characters background and would require much time to explain but I think that is a sufficient summary.

We didn't roll a single die... however I had a higher Intelligence than the solar.., maybe that helped a bit.

EDIT: We are lvl 20, but heavily non-optimized (a necromancer (that wasn't there at that time, he's the DM's character), a bard, a druid/blighter/shifter and my multi-weapon-fighter) so that in combat I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have made it.

[Arbitrarity]

How do good deeds cause more evil in the world than a lack of action?

Ah, Ok. Too lengthy to explain. Nvm.

[Orzel]

1) No. A none-pic character wouldn't have the skill to talk a Solar into falling
2) Yes, that's a major issue in many religion and the point of the most of the high level demon in the book But there are few reason for it happening.
3) If you can't win, don't try.
4) You shouldn't have been able to do it in the first place. But since you did do it, you should get XP.

Many writings of angel give/mention them next to no free will. It usually takes the angel having the desire to break a major belief to change their minds. Like "I'm a deity now" major. It would be hard for 1 mortal to change an angel evil by talking to it because a topic that could make an angel would get the mortal killed for blasphemy or committing a major sin by talking about it for too long.

[SilverClawShift]

It would be hard for 1 mortal to change an angel evil by talking to it because a topic that could make an angel would get the mortal killed for blasphemy or committing a major sin by talking about it for too long.

Ah, but it was no ordinary mortal.

It was a PC

[Orzel]

Ah, but it was no ordinary mortal.

It was a PC

A PC without divine ranks

[Driderman]

I can't help but think of the game Planescape:Torment

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Where the main character has the option to do the opposite, redeem a fallen Deva, and does so with but a single sentence: Have you forgotten the face of your father, Trias?

Yes I believe that things like celestials and fiends can fall, whether up or down. Even Inevitables could conceivably lose their way, although it would take some effort. I'd say unless you had some very, VERY persuasive arguments it'd be highly unlikely, but it is possible.
In this particular scenario, I might consider the Solar rather 'Tripped' than 'Fallen'. He may have begun to doubt his way, but why should that stop him from reasserting his views as soon as he sees the slightest proof that good is as good as he always thought so?

I'm thinking if your DM let you do this, there's probably a good reason. Or maybe he just realised that the Solar would cream you in a fight and decided not to do a total party kill. As I said, a good reason :)
And since you did overcome a quest obstacle, yes, xp are in order

[Xefas]

A lvl 20 PC is hardly "mortal" in the normal sense. I think after you play for a while you become desensitized to what exactly "lvl 20" means. A normal guy is around level 1 or 2. The greatest people in modern times are only around lvl 5 or 6.

A lvl 20 character is suppose to be capable of feats far surpassing anything imaginable. They are legendary in every sense of the word. They splinter continents, they overthrow kings, they make wyrms bow before them, and they, most certainly, could cause a Solar to fall.

Maybe not a 20 minute discussion...but still. I think that Partysan should succeed and get a buttload of XP for it. However, I believe that the DM should have the Solar travel with them for a while afterwards, slowly being corrupted by Partysan's character. The 20 minute discussion should be all it takes on the players part, but the character has to have some "off-screen" time to "really" do it.

[Just Alex]

While I think that creatures like demons, devils, archons and the like shouldn't have alignment changes on the whole, I can see situations that cause alignment changes. Heck, in one of the WotC campaign modules, there's a fallen archon (Lord of the Iron Fortress, I think). Going back a little bit, Torment had a non-evil succubus. This should be extra rare. NPC's have emotions and thoughts and can be affected by the world around them. Regardless, I think it'd take a bit more than a philosophical dilemma to cause an solar to fall.

[PMDM]

You know, no one ever thinks that slaad can see a pattern in the world.....

Anyway, you have to keep in mind that outsiders are literally made out of the plane they're from. It's neigh impossible. The last time celestials fell, it marked a huge shift in the cosmology.

Plus, keep in mind that the Solar usually has been living for thousands of years. You think just because you had a tough break with life will make a solar change sides instantly? He's seen countless acts of good. One act gone astray won't make him change.

Finally, no one jumps 2 steps in alignment. Ever. The angel should now be TN. Confused, but not lost. Even in the great fall, most celestials went neutral. Not evil.

[SilverClawShift]

Having a sense of humor can be an epic level challenge.

[Pokemaster]

1- Since even a level 20 party probably wouldn't get past a Solar's damage reduction, I'm assuming that the DM planned for the party to talk it out somehow, so I would allow it.

2- Probably not. In order to work, a Solar would have to see physical evidence of Good's failures (which would probably have to be engineered by a high-ranking Devil specifically looking to make the Solar fall). Even if you need manage to outroll the Solar's +34 Diplomacy and +30 Sense Motive checks, it probably wouldn't be enough for it to abandon its duties and give up on Good.

3- Doubtful. It probably wouldn't have been possible without epic-level weapons.

4- Why not?

[PaladinBoy]

I'd be inclined to agree with the crowd that's saying that just because you can confound the DM in a moral discussion does not mean that your character can confound a solar in a moral discussion. Without knowing more about your character and the argument you used, however, I would be willing to admit that it is within the realm of possibility.

As for your questions:
1- Very doubtful. I like to imagine that I am a skilled debater, and I, as the DM, would be playing the solar. I have thought about and debated moral issues before and would feel no compunctions about using the BoED for inspiration. I don't believe anyone I play with could actually convince the solar (played by me) that evil was better than good. The only way I can see it happening is if the players came up with an elaborate plot solely designed to tempt the solar to evil.

2- Yes. It is possible, but very, very difficult, to get a solar to fall. Really, they are pure Good personified. Getting them to go against Good would be well-nigh impossible......... but that doesn't mean it can't be done by very powerful evil beings, particularly if temptation is exactly what their plots are designed to do.

3- Can't say. The fact that it worked at all probably means that he wasn't too annoyed with it, as it would have been very simple to say that it didn't work if he didn't want it to.

4- You overcome the challenge, you get the XP. I'm assuming that a 20 minute in character debate was enough of a challenge to merit the typical award for a solar.

[SurlySeraph]

There was a Fallen Solar in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Baal. So yes, Solar's can fall (at least, in video games based on 2E).

[Aquillion]

First, I know it's sad to say this... but an epic conversational feat like that really should require some sort of diplomacy roll. Yeah, yeah, it's not really good for roleplaying, but what use is Cha and cha-based skills if your DM just lets you fake them by talking well in RP? You couldn't make your character perform an epic feat of strength by lifting up the table you're playing at one-handed; you couldn't convince your DM to let your character perform an epic feat of dex by dancing real well. Epic Cha feats should require epic Cha, not just good RP. I strongly suspect that one of the reasons why so many non-caster builds tend to dump Charisma is because so many DMs will just let your diplomacy check slide if you, the player, are good at talking.

Aside from that, though... while you might be able to talk an angel into falling, I'd be more inclined to just let players convince an angel on one specific point (for instance: You must let me grab that weapon for the greater good).

Obviously, no matter how they get past the angel, the PCs should get full xp if they get the MacGuffin and get away with it. Players are rewarded xp for overcoming challenges and achieving goals, not for mindless killing. (Although, I suppose, for an evil character mindless killing could itself be a goal.)

Oh, and for the PST reference above, I think you chose the wrong one.

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This reminds me more of talking Vhailor out of existence by convincing him there is no such thing as justice, really.

[MrNexx]

I can't help but think of the game Planescape:Torment

Spoiler

Show

Where the main character has the option to do the opposite, redeem a fallen Deva, and does so with but a single sentence: Have you forgotten the face of your father, Trias?

The bit I remembered was the recovered memory, where you convinced someone he didn't exist.

[UserClone]

While we're on (or off, as the case may be) the subject, can anyone who played PST think of a justified reason NOT to max your wisdom right off the bat in that game?

[Drider]

While we're on (or off, as the case may be) the subject, can anyone who played PST think of a justified reason NOT to max your wisdom right off the bat in that game?

To be a rebel

[UserClone]

meh, only justified if you intended to be straight rogue-
that way you can have that nifty barbed mace with the confusing and the hoyven.

[Paragon Badger]

Two words: Ethical Paradox.

Best case scenario (for the PC): You blow their mind and they start to question everything they thought they knew... They fall to neutral, at best.

Worse case scenario: They're perfectly fine with the 1 step back, two steps forward philosophy of good.

I would say that convincing a heavenly being, who is by their very nature, good, or a demonic being to rise/fall, would be an immensely epic level challenge, and would be beyond our abilities, as players and DMs, to even fathom... thus... make a epicly high DC Diplomacy check.

[Dervag]

The fact that he's stumped on a question shouldn't cause a real angel to fall from grace. Chaotic and lawful angels stump one another all the time.

Think about real people who hold some firm conviction. The first unanswerable question is likely to be shrugged off; only a very consistent pattern of unanswerable questions can shake someone who is already firmly convinced of something under normal circumstances.

Now imagine how much more difficult it would be to shake the beliefs of someone who knows that they are a powerful, wise, immortal being and that the questioner is a very fallible, brief mortal.

Would you let a parrot alter your political opinions by asking you awkward questions?

In order:
-Just because you out-argue the DM doesn't necessarily mean you talk rings around the NPC. Talking a Solar into alignment change is presumably possible in theory, but shouldn't be that easy. Where by 'that easy' I mean 'in any sense likely to have happened in the entire history of the multiverse'.

Oh, it could happen. Asmodeus could probably do it, given plenty of time, and assuming that the solar didn't automatically stop listening to him once it realized what was going on.

But what the king of Hell can do and what a PC can do are almost certainly not the same thing.

It would be hard for 1 mortal to change an angel evil by talking to it because a topic that could make an angel would get the mortal killed for blasphemy or committing a major sin by talking about it for too long.

Well, my idea of an angel wouldn't necessarily kill the mortal. But they would stop listening.

In my opinion, the epitomes of good aren't going to kill people out of hand for talking; after all, "they know not what they do." Angels aren't just Lawful Stupid paladins writ large.

Ah, but it was no ordinary mortal.

It was a PC

I know you're joking, but I actually think that if the PC were approximately as good at persuasion as the most powerful and persuasive of devils, then such a PC could, as an epic-level task, talk a solar into falling. But that's the Diplomacy equivalent of swimming up a waterfall; a feat which is only possible for a character of nigh-divine skill.

In this particular scenario, I might consider the Solar rather 'Tripped' than 'Fallen'. He may have begun to doubt his way, but why should that stop him from reasserting his views as soon as he sees the slightest proof that good is as good as he always thought so?

That makes more sense. A mortal of non-epic skill might be able to make a solar doubt itself, or to confuse a solar, if they were extremely clever. That's about the most effect they could hope for IMO.

A lvl 20 character is suppose to be capable of feats far surpassing anything imaginable. They are legendary in every sense of the word. They splinter continents, they overthrow kings, they make wyrms bow before them, and they, most certainly, could cause a Solar to fall.

The thing is that convincing a Solar to fall is probably going to be even harder than killing it, and killing a Solar is a formidable challenge even for a 20th level character.

[Xuincherguixe]

There's also no reason to assume that the Solar is even responsive to questions. It could have taken double think to a whole new level. It may simply be too set in it's ways to change.

[skywalker]

There's also no reason to assume that the Solar is even responsive to questions. It could have taken double think to a whole new level. It may simply be too set in it's ways to change.

This reminds me of the time I decided that Celestial was equivalent to doublespeak.


More on topic, I agree with the rest of them, I don't think you've got a chance at making him fall. Although it sounds like the DM already said the solar got pretty mentally messed up. I'd still say he gets pouty, at most. Most of the time, when you confuse someone who's been as involved, and believed as deeply as a solar has, you can literally shatter the foundations of their beliefs and they will still require time to come to terms, or more proof.

On a side note, Book of Exalted Deeds is not that good a source for thoughts on goodness, IMHO.

[Aquillion]

Maybe the Solar was faking it as part of a larger plan to turn the PC to good. The "fallen" angel travels with the party, talking to them about this and that, and before they know it they've been ensnared in the canny wiles of the upper planes and turned to the side of goodness.

...nothing says that Good can't be sneaky now and then.