Orcs, trolls, goblins, and ogres vs lvl 5s

[13_CBS]

Well, I'm planning on starting up a game here where the PCs are hired by an army to infiltrate an orcish fortress and cause general mayhem inside (up to and including assassination, sabotage, etc.) A simple, short, mostly kick-down-the-door game.

Characters and monsters are to be level 5 and Core, with the exception of a few feats from outside books (like certain metamagic feats, fighter feats, etc.). If the enemy consists entirely of orcs, trolls, goblins, ogres, and maybe the occasional giant or two, what sort of encounters are appropriate for 4-5 level 5 characters? I plan on giving them about 5000 gold to start, no more than 4000 gold on one item.

I've checked the CR ratings for the monsters, but I've head that CR isn't always a reliable way to judge the strength of a monster. So how many orcs can challenge a group of level 5 PCs? Orcs with levels? Goblins? Goblins with levels? Trolls? etc.?

[Ashdate]

You could make CR 3 or 4 orcs (by giving them class levels). Otherwise, by the book I think you'd need 7-9 CR 1/2's to 'challenge' the players, although with only 5 hp the PC's would probably wipe them easily.

- Eddie

[Aquillion]

I'd say boost the orcs by giving them character levels, but be warned: In my experience, some players don't like suddenly running into large numbers of familar monsters that are mysteriously stronger than they usually are. Give the players at least some hint (e.g. this fortress is guarded by the Orcish Elite Guard or whatever... or just describe these orcs, as the first fight starts, as seeming far better-trained, more skilled, and more organized than any the players have fought before. That's something the characters would probably notice.)

[kpenguin]

I'd say use a small horde of normal orcs sprinkled with some elite ones. Also, make sure to equip some of them with bows.

[kjones]

Some lessons I've learned in sending hordes of mooks against my PCs:

Low AB, low AC, low HP: In straight-up combat of any sort, your mooks will miss (low AB), get hit (low AC) and die (low HP), in that order. So try to avoid straight-up confrontations. Ambushes are good against classes like Monk who lose most of their AC when denied their Dex bonus (before Uncanny Dodge of course), although excellent positioning and/or magic may be required to beat good Listen/Spot checks. If you can figure out some way to give them touch attacks, especially ranged touch attacks, do it. If you can combine these tactics, that's gold. Most PCs have either a good touch AC or a good flat-footed AC; getting both is difficult.

Your strengths against their weaknesses. Use the aforementioned tactics against their spellcasters, and they will FREAK OUT. Keep them on their toes. Don't let them rest and recuperate; this should be easy, since they're infiltrating a fortress. Make your mooks mobile, and keep them spread out; if they're packed tight enough, a fireball could take out dozens of orcs. Don't give them the chance to mow down hordes like a scythe cutting through wheat. Orcs and ogres aren't terribly clever, so give 'em a commander who knows what he's doing. A half-orc with class levels would fit the bill perfectly.

On class levels: A good rule of thumb is to have six mooks for every stronger fellow. So if you have six orcs, give them a leader with levels in fighter or barbarian (or, if you want to be tricky, rogue, monk... if you want to be evil, make him a Warblade). If you have two leaders (so that's sixteen mooks) give 'em a Commander, maybe an Ogre chieftan or something.

Twelve Orcs (CR 1/2) + Two Leaders (CR ~2) + 1 Commander (CR ~4) gives me an EL of 8, a good challenge for a 5th level party. Just don't let them get cocky.

[13_CBS]

Alright then, how about trolls and ogres?

[kjones]

Be careful with trolls, IIRC they are CR 5 (SRD confirms it) so one of them will be a challenge, especially if they don't figure out the fast healing stuff. Plus, take it from me: Rend can be frickin' brutal.

If you're asking how I would personally handle trolls in that setting: The orcs and ogres keep some chained up in the basement; they point them in the general direction of the PCs, release them, and run. Either that, or they're used to guard a specific area. For a party of level 5, a troll will be a big enough hassle on its own; you don't need to throw reinforcements or class levels into the mix.

[Xefas]

Some suggestions for goblins...

Warlocks make good goblin witchdoctors. Their Eldritch Blast is a ranged touch attack, so even at low levels they can hit PCs. Not to mention, they can summon swarms who auto-hit. Also, since they're small, they could easily ride on the shoulders of an Ogre or Troll.

A fun encounter I had with this was a Troll with a Goblin Warlock riding on his back who knew Baleful Utterance (Shatter). They didn't have a wizard, or alchemists fire, or acid or anything that could bypass a troll's regeneration, so I positioned some lit torches around the courtyard that the battle took place in. The PC's took the bait, snatched up some torches, and went for the Troll. Except, the Goblin had his action readied to cast Shatter if anyone tried that (Goblins aren't as dimwitted, after all). So, the PCs kept trying in vain to hit this troll and the Goblin kept breaking their torches. Eventually, the PCs ran away and I staged a much more epic way to take down the troll, but the point is...try some synergy for extra fun. A goblin is an okay fight, a troll is an okay fight, a goblin plus a troll is an okay fight, but a goblin and a troll working together can be a lot more fun.

Also, check out the Swarmfighting feat. It can let loads of low-level mooks gang up on characters and get a bonus to hit. Flank + max swarmfighting bonus, and you might just be able to hit someone!

[13_CBS]

The warlock suggestion is interesting, but I'm keeping this Core...

[Paragon Badger]

Smart and/or unorthodox enemies are usually more challenging than a statistically stronger enemy.

Give them weapons strong enough to penetrate the hardness of a shield, and then have them powerattack the PCs. If the attack roll lands in the range enough to bypass all AC except the shield, but doesn't surpass the shield... then roll damage against the shield.

It's a tricky, perhaps even underhanded, move that your PCs won't expect, but it's perfectly legal since shields, by definition, are hit by the oncoming blow.

Heck, you could even roll damage against armor if they don't surpass the armor AC, although armor is less likely to be destroyed that way.

Hey, have a few enemies try and grapple the spellcaster. He'll be hard-pressed to cast any powerful spells while taking continual damage + the concentration check needed to cast a spell while grappled.

Trying to think of a few other tricks....

[Dervag]

It's a tricky, perhaps even underhanded, move that your PCs won't expect, but it's perfectly legal since shields, by definition, are hit by the oncoming blow.

Heck, you could even roll damage against armor if they don't surpass the armor AC, although armor is less likely to be destroyed that way.

However, if you do that to your PCs, your PCs should be able to do the same thing to their enemies, too. This gives your monsters what amounts to a free sundering attack against the PCs' equipment on a large fraction of their misses. That's going to greatly increase the threat they present, because in every encounter there's a real risk that the PCs will lose valuable and expensive equipment.

[Paragon Badger]

However, if you do that to your PCs, your PCs should be able to do the same thing to their enemies, too. This gives your monsters what amounts to a free sundering attack against the PCs' equipment on a large fraction of their misses. That's going to greatly increase the threat they present, because in every encounter there's a real risk that the PCs will lose valuable and expensive equipment.

Yeah, I invented that trick actually as a method for the PCs in a campaign to get around a particularly turtle-y human foe who had a (low-tech wooden) tower shield.

The thing is, it's less reliable than a Sunder attack. Sure, it doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity, but you have to reach a precise area in your attack roll to actually hit the object. Too inaccurate, and you hit air via their dex modifier or enchantments. Too accurate, and you hit them. ;-) Although that might not be a bad thing....

[AtomicKitKat]

Trolls are generally too brutal for anything less than level 7, from my observations. Maybe if you had 2 front-liners, you could take on a single troll at Encounter Level 5.

Ogres have some of the same advantages as Trolls(high HP, 10 foot reach), but without the nastier crap(Regen, Rend). Having 1 per front-liner from about EL 3 onwards is fine.

For added fun, the trolls/ogres take Fling Ally from Races of Stone and throw the "runts"(orcs/gobs) at the party. You might even try to make it a special fighting style(Flung ally makes a Charge Attack that deals double damage if using a lance, with 1.5*Strength mod of ally+1.5*Strength mod of flinger).

[Kioran]

There are some things like Trolls, or Destruction traps, which have low CRs, representing the minor threat they are to a higher level party, but which at their ECL, absolutely brutal. Without a berzerker party or a strong arcane Caster, these will rip your characters a new one. Have one Troll at most, and hide some alchemical munitions somewhere in the fortress so the PCs have a guaranteed way to hurt them. Otherwise......ouch.
Ogres are fine, same as trolls though, they increase the risks of sudden death through unlucky rolls, with the classical 25%-means-one-character encounter wehre the rest escape unscathed. That said, two Ogres sound okay for an encounter.

If you want to throw low-CR stuff at your party (Orc Warriors/Barbarians 1), either take some liberty with a "discount" (throw in a few free mooks with your CR 4 main baddy) or play them like Tucker´s Kobolds. Even 8 lvl 1 Warriors, although technically CR 5, are dispatched within 3 rounds with minimal investment. So if you want to play these monsters dumb (which is okay, some monsters are dumb, and it´s no fun always fighting smart monsters), use some more. My Players haven´t complained.
Alternatively: 4-6 Orc warriors with heavy shields and waraxes in the first row, an Orc Barb 1/Bard 2 behind them and a Goblin Sorc 2 as a backup. Could prove amusing enough, even it if can be slaughtered with liberal area effect spells (earning Magic missiles from Goblin Sorc in the process). A little over CR 5 by the books, but not a hard encounter by a stretch, even Core-only.
Or use an ogre with an escort of 3 javelin-hurling Goblin Warrior 2s. Better yet, let the Goblins hurl Acid vials, so the PCs can loot them for these.
Sic a Goblin Ninja-squad on them - 4x Goblin Rouge 2. They might do good damage initially, but go down relatively fast. 3 Rogues 3 are dangerous......

Anyway, feel free to use mooks, but either play them dastardly clever, or take some cheaper-by-the-dozen discount. Your players probably won´t mind the extra challenge if you give them enemies to wade through once in while......

[Saph]

It depends on how skilled/optimise-y your players are. A standard collection of CR 5 encounters would be something like:

12 Orcs
8 Orcs, plus a 2nd-level orc leader (cleric or sorcerer, to mix it up)
18 Goblins (table doesn't cover over 12 monsters, so that's a guess)
12 Goblins, plus a 3rd-level goblin warrior or adept
6 Goblins, plus a 2nd-level goblin warrior, plus 1 ogre
2 Ogres
1 Troll

Keep in mind the following:

• This assumes a party of four characters. If you have more or less PCs, increase monster numbers proportionately.
• This assumes an averagely-skilled party. If the party has a lot of skilled players, increase the CR of all the encounters by one. If the party has a lot of newbies, decrease the CR of all the encounters by one.
• The players should, in theory, be able to handle four of these encounters before being forced to rest. Doesn't always work that way in practise, though, and if the players have no way to rest, being stuck in a hostile fortress . . . well, they're screwed.
• These are all very muscle-heavy encounters. Orcs, ogres, and trolls can all do a lot of damage in a short time. The PCs will be fine if they can keep the enemies at arms reach, but if they get swarmed over and don't have any aces up their sleeve, they may all die quite quickly.

Hope that helps.

- Saph

[13_CBS]

Thanks very much folks! I think I get the general idea now.

There is one concern that I have, however; how will the casters get their rest? I'd like for the Orc Fortress game to be longer than the average dungeon (they've got lots to do), but...

1) If the characters rest, the folks inside the fortress will start noticing the sabotage they commit.
2) If the characters don't rest, they could easily get killed by passive attrition.

I'm wondering if I should arrange it so thta the first few objectives either require little time or few resources...

[goat]

If they have to rest, give them suitable safe points.

Storage rooms can be good. They're can be windowless rooms underground in order to keep them cool, so they can be given only a single access door for a good reason. This can then be held either by magic, or just stacking the storeroom contents up in front of it.

The problem with this, is that getting found will result in a need to fight your way out. However, if your cleric is willing to give up one of their level 3 spell slots, stone shape can cover over the doorway, making it unlikely they'll be found.

[Jacob Orlove]

Trolls are incredibly dangerous, but only under certain conditions. If the players are trapped in a 10x10 corridor or a 20x20x20 room with a Troll, it will full attack people, it will Rend, and characters will probably die.

If they face the troll in a huge courtyard, or an open field, they'll be much better off. A combination of ranged attacks and "troll moves up, hits you once/okay, hit him back, retreat, taking the AoO/repeat" can be reasonably effective (note that taking a single AoO now is much better than standing around to get full attacked!).

Rend (plus a good Str), not regeneration, is the Troll's most threatening feature. If the players can fight the troll on their own terms, it is a fair CR 5 encounter, but if they have to fight it in a confined space, you might even manage a TPK.

edit: if you want them to rest, you could always have them find scrolls of Rope Trick, caster level 8.

[....]

Have the leader of the baddies be a particularly cunning troll barbarian.

That will be the only troll, and the BBEG. That way the players (unless they're thicker than bricks) will realize they shouldn't mess with the troll lightly. Lots of players in some of my games don't see trolls as a threat because "everyone knows fire and acid kills trolls". They're suprised when the troll dosn't do down to a vial of alchemist fire and Melf's Acid Arrow.

[13_CBS]

If they have to rest, give them suitable safe points.

Storage rooms can be good. They're can be windowless rooms underground in order to keep them cool, so they can be given only a single access door for a good reason. This can then be held either by magic, or just stacking the storeroom contents up in front of it.

The problem with this, is that getting found will result in a need to fight your way out. However, if your cleric is willing to give up one of their level 3 spell slots, stone shape can cover over the doorway, making it unlikely they'll be found.

But that's the easy part. My concern is that, should the characters rest, the fortress will be on full alert, making it almost impossible for the characters to continue without wiping out an entire garrison of orcs...

[MrNexx]

But that's the easy part. My concern is that, should the characters rest, the fortress will be on full alert, making it almost impossible for the characters to continue without wiping out an entire garrison of orcs...

That is a problem with resting, yes.

You know what you do in that situation? Take your time, buy some scrolls and wands, and don't waste spells.

You've got two choices: try to trash them all by throwing tons of spells, or play strategically, and don't waste valuable resources.

[Matthew]

Exactly, I agree. You basically have to treat the Fortress as one big Encounter (which is how I treat pretty much all my Dungeons).

[Burrito]

Now, do they need, to wipe out the garrison? Or do they just need to disrupt it enough to make it ineffectual? Poisioning the cookpots is a good way to even things out. Sowing disention is another way to keep yourselves unnoticed. When we did similar missions our thieves/rouges would steal small personal items from the barracks, and leave them on and near bodies and places where we stole items. We would also leave gold pieces from neighboring countries on the bodies. Gave the enemy the idea that the deaths and disturbances were an internal affair.

[Corolinth]

Give the orcs and goblins max hit points for their first die, like any PC would get. The extra three or four hit points goes a long way towards keeping them alive against a level 5 party. Instead of giving them a class level, consider giving them two racial hit dice instead of one (and again, give them a few more than "average" hit points). The two racial hit dice won't make them at all overpowering because it won't give them things like class features or bonus feats, but it will increase hit points slightly, and give the same attack bonus that a level 1 fighter or barbarian would have.

[Saph]

I'm a bit confused - why is everyone coming up with ways to make the enemies tougher?

I'd say that the basic premise - entire fortress of intelligent enemies to kill - is quite tough enough already. The PCs are going to be at serious risk of the enemies co-ordinating and overwhelming them, or just of getting worn down through attrition.

- Saph