Paradox kills you!

[Indon]

I am making this thread because it was taking up too much space in the 4'rd Ed. Wish List thread, and I feel it's something worth discussing.

This thread is half-game, half-theoretical discussion of the design intent and application of Paradox in White Wolf's Mage the Ascention, part of their World of Darkness.

The game part is, you describe a Mage magical effect, and someone else (probably me unless someone else wants to have a go) describes how it catastrophically backfires/drives you mad/etc. through Paradox expenditure.

The theory part is, feel free to discuss your opinions of what Paradox should be in the Mage system, vs. what it is, etc.

Personally, I feel that Paradox is designed in the Mage system to be a control on the actions of even the most powerful Mage, the enforcement of Static reality upon a Mage. Mind that Paradox can strike against even the most coincidental effects, and that coincidental effects can still generate Paradox (just less than Vulgar effects).

[Indon]

In regards to the idea that Magic can act upon other supernatural creatures with impunity because people aren't supposed to believe in them:

It may be expected for people to not believe in supernatural creatures, but this does not mean they are not deeply ingrained in consentual reality.

Firstly, many people do outright believe in them.

Secondly, many, many more, while they don't believe in other supernatural creatures per se, may have a more overarching belief that "anything's possible" ("You can't believe some of the freaky stuff I've seen", and "there is more on heaven and earth than is in your philosophy" falls into this category as well), and are thus not exerting pressure on their existence within consentual reality.

[Fax Celestis]

I agree with you in principle, but M:tA actually says, in text, that supernatural creatures--regardless of kind--do not provoke Paradox. Further, if you can make a magical effect look like a nonmagical effect (such as shooting a fireball out of an object that looks like a flamethrower), it's not Vulgar and therefore doesn't make Paradox.

[BCOVertigo]

This has nothing at all to do with your game but what books does one need to play mage? (the 'core' so to speak)

I have a book for mage: the awakening and was interested in learning the system but then found out a newer edition was out and since I barely found ONE book from the older at half price books, I figure the newer edition may be easier to get my dirty little noob hands on.

On that note, I just got Antagonist under the impression that it is the equivalent of a Monster Manual for WoD.

[Fax Celestis]

Mage: The Awakening needs two books: the M:tA book, and the nWoD core. Old M:tA (Mage: The Ascension) only requires one book: the M:tA book--though the Technocracy book is a very good addition.

...why on earth couldn't they have used a different acronym?

[BCOVertigo]

Mage: The Awakening needs two books: the M:tA book, and the nWoD core. Old M:tA (Mage: The Ascension) only requires one book: the M:tA book--though the Technocracy book is a very good addition.

...why on earth couldn't they have used a different acronym?

Spite, sir. Spite.

So....while I don't need antagonist to play nWoD Mage, is it a useful addition for a new group of players?

Also what are some of the changes between editions?

[Indon]

I've never played New Mage, but from what I gather magic works _entirely_ differently.

Considering I absolutely love the old Mage system, thinking it honestly the best-implemented magic system out of any game system I've ever played (albeit also the most difficult to understand and run properly), I've no interest in playing New Mage.

Edit: Yes, I am aware that supernatural creatures do not provoke the additional Paradox penalty that normal people do.

[Fax Celestis]

Antagonists and Ghost Stories are excellent additions. They provide general rules for making foes for your opponents that aren't other mages.

However, be warned: M:tA is by far the most complex of the three new systems. V:tR and W:tF are a lot simpler. Prometheans might also be a good addition, if you feel like making Frankensteinian opponents.

I am saddened, however, by the discontinuation of Wraith: the Oblivion.

[Indon]

Edit: And regarding your fireball-from-flamethrower example: Yes, at first that would be coincidental and incur no Paradox.

But should you fire it more times than the amount of fuel you seem to have would indicate, it stops being coincidental. It starts being, "Man, I wonder what that thing's running on?" and that's when Paradox starts building.

You fire it off one too many times and the Paradox expels, which is when Static Reality supplies you with a fuel (and demonstrates that you have been using it all the time, probably in a bad way).

Now, if you take steps to 'refuel' your 'flamethrower' (probably with quintessence), you make it look more reasonable and prevent the incurrence of Paradox from that way.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Regarding the Paradox backlash game...

I cast Magic Missile at the darkness. What horrible thing happens?

More seriously, I use a Forces effect to manipulate gravity in a small area and pin, let's say, a Vampire to the ground with increased gravitational force. What horrible thing happens?

[BCOVertigo]

Antagonists and Ghost Stories are excellent additions. They provide general rules for making foes for your opponents that aren't other mages.

However, be warned: M:tA is by far the most complex of the three new systems. V:tR and W:tF are a lot simpler. Prometheans might also be a good addition, if you feel like making Frankensteinian opponents.

I am saddened, however, by the discontinuation of Wraith: the Oblivion.

Well vampires all have livejournals and werewolves are covered in (flammable) hair, so mage seems like the obvious choice. Besides if I can't bury my opponents in a torrent of eldritch annihilation why am I playing in the first place?

In case you wondered my favorite word from the old M:tA book was paraphobe.

[Indon]

I cast Magic Missile at the darkness. What horrible thing happens?

The Darkness casts Forcecage back at you?

More seriously, I use a Forces effect to manipulate gravity in a small area and pin, let's say, a Vampire to the ground with increased gravitational force. What horrible thing happens?

There are a lot of possibilities here, linked to what methodology you're using to affect this.

Say you're using 'superstrings' to affect the gravity field (Forces, Correspondence), since gravity is a mutually attractive force. A backfire in this case would cause those strings to temporarily 'snap', possibly causing a temporary antigravity field (small paradox expenditure) or causing a backlash causing an expulsionary force away from the source of the original field (for high paradox). That's more a technomagic view of that sort of thing, though.

Now let's say instead you're calling upon God to supress your opponent (Forces, Prime). More likely (particularly, if you expended Quintessence to initiate the effect) the effect just stops; Quintessence is Paradox Insurance. I'd personally also have it just stop if you don't have a large amount of Paradox accumulated.

Now, if you had a high amount of Paradox accumulated, you gain a couple points of Quiet and your friends see you collapse into a speaking-in-tongues seisure while you see your effect work just fine.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Yeah. My only major campaign in the Ascension was as a Son of Ether, so I tend to express things technically, which is probably why you initially went with the first, sciency example. Of course, as an actual SoE, Paradox can always just make your Devices stop working/explode spectacularly.

[horseboy]

I was talking about a published WW spell, that IIRC required 3 life, 2 time, matter, spirit (one of those was optional) and 1 prime. It allowed you to turn a vampire into a mortal, thereby stripping them of their supernatural abilities. It was in the player's guide, if I remember.

[Indon]

I was talking about a published WW spell, that IIRC required 3 life, 2 time, matter, spirit (one of those was optional) and 1 prime. It allowed you to turn a vampire into a mortal, thereby stripping them of their supernatural abilities. It was in the player's guide, if I remember.

Never seen it. Is the players' guide different than the standard book, per chance?

[horseboy]

Never seen it. Is the players' guide different than the standard book, per chance?

Yeah. They did that throughout the WoD series. They had the core rule book and then they'd give out a player's guide with new skills, fluff on different stuff gear, and what not. It's been 10 years, so they might not have called it a "player's guide".

Hmm, quick google I think that's it. I only remember having that, the core book and Iteneration X.

[Fax Celestis]

Never seen it. Is the players' guide different than the standard book, per chance?

It is indeed.

[Indon]

It is indeed.

Hmm.

Seems to be a case of a bit of power creep. I don't recall the few static abilities in the original book to be all that ridiculous.

[horseboy]

Hmm.

Seems to be a case of a bit of power creep. I don't recall the few static abilities in the original book to be all that ridiculous.

Well, usually they were the 2nd or 3rd book out in the series. But yeah, Mage was just Hella broken.

[Indon]

Well, usually they were the 2nd or 3rd book out in the series. But yeah, Mage was just Hella broken.

Were there any _other_ effects like that listed in the books, or was that just the Shivering Touch of Mage?

[Fax Celestis]

Were there any _other_ effects like that listed in the books, or was that just the Shivering Touch of Mage?

M:tA was the worst offender of Codex Creep.

[horseboy]

Were there any _other_ effects like that listed in the books, or was that just the Shivering Touch of Mage?

It's the only one I remember. My area was very HEAVILY pro-vampire. I used to threaten them with it. There were a couple of other spells in there, but I don't remember what they did.

[Fax Celestis]

It's the only one I remember. My area was very HEAVILY pro-vampire. I used to threaten them with it. There were a couple of other spells in there, but I don't remember what they did.

Mine was too, though I managed to get it so that I could LARP a Wraith in an MET V:tM game.

[Aquillion]

...this is why, when you're in a campaign of Mage, you need to take the time to declare yourself the Messiah and run a PR campaign based on this.

I mean, really. How long would it take to convince people that you're the Messiah when you can perform genuine miracles? I think you'd have them firmly convinced long before the paradox became a problem. Start with the most insane mystically-minded folk who expect the Messiah to appear at any time anyway, and it's no problem.

[horseboy]

...this is why, when you're in a campaign of Mage, you need to take the time to declare yourself the Messiah and run a PR campaign based on this.

I mean, really. How long would it take to convince people that you're the Messiah when you can perform genuine miracles? I think you'd have them firmly convinced long before the paradox became a problem. Start with the most insane mystically-minded folk who expect the Messiah to appear at any time anyway, and it's no problem.

Waco, TX

[TheElfLord]

...this is why, when you're in a campaign of Mage, you need to take the time to declare yourself the Messiah and run a PR campaign based on this.

I mean, really. How long would it take to convince people that you're the Messiah when you can perform genuine miracles? I think you'd have them firmly convinced long before the paradox became a problem. Start with the most insane mystically-minded folk who expect the Messiah to appear at any time anyway, and it's no problem.

Well, you can't burn Paradox off naturally once you get more than 10 points, after that it just stacks up untill you go pop, so I would say you have 3-5 spells before it becomes a problem. While you might be able to convice some people you are the Messiah in that short amount of time, it won't be widespred. Plus trying to do that paints a giant target on your chest from all the supernatural groups that try to keep the supernatural secret. The Camirilla and the Technocracy would be knocking on your door before long. In fact, the Waco analogy is very apt in that regard.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Gasp! The FBI are owned by the Technocracy!

Who didn't see that coming, honestly?

[HidaTsuzua]

...this is why, when you're in a campaign of Mage, you need to take the time to declare yourself the Messiah and run a PR campaign based on this.

I mean, really. How long would it take to convince people that you're the Messiah when you can perform genuine miracles? I think you'd have them firmly convinced long before the paradox became a problem. Start with the most insane mystically-minded folk who expect the Messiah to appear at any time anyway, and it's no problem.

You're close. The true key to Mage power is just playing with consensual reality. I personally like setting up urban legends and email hoaxes myself. You'll have fun arguing with the GM about how many people have to believe before you find alligators in New York City or someone you don't like will die from antibiotic immune ebola-death-AIDS from leaks into newspapers and emails.

One fun trick is corner the supply of something rare but little used (some mineral or the like). Then set up a campaign of disease that needs the item in question to cure. Kill a few people with the symptoms, report to the news, and you have a disease. Then destroy all your supplies (after giving yourself the "cure") and have the supplies "special" in that they can't be made. After a critical point, reality will kick in and enforce your view of the world. Everyone else will be dead. You are now the last being and therefore the consensus. Now believe everyone back into existence but this time they are philosophical zombies and thus don't have a say in consensual reality. Enjoy being a god.

That or pull the ol' "well all the players agree therefore it's consensual and we're the majority of the people here, sorry Mr. GM, but Rule 0 doesn't exist anymore" trick.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also, keep in mind that supernatural creatures, like Vampires, are not considered 'witnesses', and so incur far less Paradox than 'Vulgar WITH witnesses' to screw when you go vulgar.

The above 'turn a vamp into a mortal' rote, which would only be temporary unless you managed to make like 5+ successes, would be vulgar, but since it has absolutley no visible effect, since a vamp looks just like a human anyways. In fact, the argument could be made that it is a coincidental effect because 'he may have thought he was a vampire, but everyone knows that vampires don't really exist, poor thing must have been insane to have thought bullets wouldn't affect him'. The belief system of society is that vamps don't exist. This is good for vamps in most cases, to keep the lynch mobs away, but it gives Mages effectively Carte Blanche on them since you're returning 'reality' to status quo. Same thing with any other supernatural creature. This was the loophole I had to royally screw supernatural things over with nonvisual rotes. Then there were the other coincidental rotes like Prime 2 Forces 2: Sunlight Grenades. Works just like flash grenades, looks just like flash grenades, but it's real sunlight which does ag damage to vamps. Or the Everchanging Sheath with Matter 2, so that the sword I pull from it 'just happens' to be the exact thing I need to defeat my opponent. Werewolf attacking? It 'just happens' to be silver. Changlings? It 'just happens' to be Cold Iron. Vampires? It 'jut happens' to be wooden and pointy. And if a cop wants a look at it, then it 'just happens' to be a cheap replica. This, coupled with a Mind2 coincedental 'jedi mind trick' is more than enough to keep me out of trouble.

Hell, Mind effects are nearly always coincidental unless you just get blatant about it. 'Who knew the guy had suicidal tendencies and decided to eat his gun?' 'Who me? I had a long day and fell asleep at the camera. That's a comfy chair.' 'Holy crap, my best buddy has been playing me all along and is infected with the Wyrm-Taint and been leading me down the primerose path the whole time. That traitor!'. It's like Suggestion, only moreso. My Akashic pwned all with a combination of Do and Mind rotes, and never a point of paradox.

Of course, when you really need to get vulgar... Forces3, Matter3. That vampire? Yea, the flash point of his body is now equal to the ambient temperature. Congratulations, you're on fire. Have a nice day. Or even: Matter 2 Prime2: Vampire? You're now a lawnchair. How about this one... Matter 2, Forces3, Corrospondence 3: Werewolf? You're now a silver magnet. You have the gravitational attraction equivelant to a point singularity, but only in respect to silver objects, and silver objects can cross the quantum barrier to get here from all over the world. have a nice day.We haven't even gotten into Time5: I go back in time and kill your father/sire, you cease to exist. Or Corrospondence 3, Prime 2, Forces 3: Force Field of Immunity. Or how about Mind3: planting a mental compulsion to stand there and do nothing... basically a Stop That gun. Let's not start with Entropy effects, which can screw anything over. Or Time effects which age the victim years a second.

Mage: The Ascention is broke.

[Xuincherguixe]

Wow. Sounds excessively fun broken.