4th Ed: 30 levels

[Person_Man]

So, by now you've probably seen this:

Spoiler

Show

In May of 2004, we started kicking around ideas like “the 20-level race.” In a 20-level race, at each level you gained, you’d get not only new class features, but also new racial qualities. Your race might predetermine which ability scores you increased at some levels, so a dwarf’s Constitution would always have an edge over characters of other races. It would grant you new special abilities as you advanced in level, always appropriate to your level, of course.

One key advantage we saw to this system was that it made it much easier to find room for new races without resorting to the kludgy and awkward mechanic of level adjustments. If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races. Races like the githyanki already anticipated some of that idea by granting new spell-like abilities at higher levels.

Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race.

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do.

The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure.

I vote NO to 30 levels.

30 levels will destroy my ability to port my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 edition content in your new 4.0 game, and it creates needless extra levels of complexity to worry about and build towards when I create my 1st level character. Seriously, it took me 3 years of gaming to take my favorite Druid from level 1 to level 20. Once you get to 20th+ levels, normal game play just breaks down entirely (Wish, Time Stop, etc). So why add levels 21-30?

Discuss.

If you'd like to debate racial power progression, I've created this thread. Thanks.

[Ichneumon]

I think/hope they used the normal power progression, and made epic into the rules, so the first 20 levels equal the old 20 levels in power.

[OverdrivePrime]

I don't know how hugely continuity-breaking that would be. If they spread the class abilities and powers out across 30 levels rather than 20 levels, I don't really see a huge problem. They're rewriting the game here (I hope), not just coming out with 3.666.

I do like the idea of racial abilities being spread out across the life of the character. That makes it so that Dwarves and Humans aren't quite so dominant at early levels when their racial abilities greatly outshine a number of class abilities.

[Generic PC]

I think the Thirty levels thing is a way to throw more things into a class, hopefully balancing it out between levels, because you reduce the power curve. That being said, if you get 9th level spells at level 17 still, i doubt Timestop, Gate, Etc. would still be there. they would be 14th level or something...

[Nerd-o-rama]

So, by now you've probably seen this:

Spoiler

Show

In May of 2004, we started kicking around ideas like “the 20-level race.” In a 20-level race, at each level you gained, you’d get not only new class features, but also new racial qualities. Your race might predetermine which ability scores you increased at some levels, so a dwarf’s Constitution would always have an edge over characters of other races. It would grant you new special abilities as you advanced in level, always appropriate to your level, of course.

One key advantage we saw to this system was that it made it much easier to find room for new races without resorting to the kludgy and awkward mechanic of level adjustments. If we spread the tasty magical abilities of drow out through their levels, they could start at 1st level on a par with other character races. Races like the githyanki already anticipated some of that idea by granting new spell-like abilities at higher levels.

Well, over the next few years, things changed, as things are wont to do. We blew the game out to thirty levels, but put your most significant racial choices in the first ten. Above that, other choices started to crowd out room for special abilities coming from your race.

In the final version of 4th Edition, most of your racial traits come into play right out of the gate at 1st level—dwarven resilience, elven evasion, a half-elf’s inspiring presence, and so on. As you go up levels, you can take racial feats to make those abilities even more exciting and gain new capabilities tied to your race. You can also take race-specific powers built into your class, which accomplish a lot of what racial substitution levels used to do: a dwarf fighter with the friend of earth power can do something that other 10th-level fighters just can’t do.

The rules have changed a lot since that first idea of the 20-level race, but they still serve the same purpose: to make sure that your race stays not just relevant but actually important all the way up through thirty levels of adventure.

I vote No to 30 levels.

30 levels will destroy my ability to port my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 3.5 edition content in your new 4.0 game, and it creates needless extra levels of complexity to worry about and build towards when I create my 1st level character. Seriously, it took me 3 years of gaming to take my favorite Druid from level 1 to level 20. Once you get to 20th+ levels, normal game play just breaks down entirely (Wish, Time Stop, etc). So why add levels 21-30?

Discuss.

If you'd like to debate racial power progression, I've created this thread. Thanks.

You know, I felt the same damn way when I discovered the Epic Level Handbook...except of course for that first point about it ruining the porting of your 3.x content to 4th. And for that, I have to ask...how exactly is it different than the massive set of paradigm shifts that were required in porting from 2nd to 3rd Edition, which you implied you had done? AD&D and 3rd Edition D&D were nothing alike, in experience tables, class features, power curve...you had to do everything over then anyway.

[Indon]

I'm good with thirty.

Really, as far as I'm concerned, AD&D only had 10 levels of progression. Non-HD levels were 3'rd edition's version of "Epic", in my view, though of course the power levels were different.

And converting to 4'ed from 3'rd ed can't be much different than converting from AD&D to 3'rd ed. "Which save does Rods and Staves fall under?" :P

[tainsouvra]

I suspect they're simply making the increasingly-popular epic games more integrated.

[Brianish]

I suspect spells are gonna continue to be gained at roughly the same level as before, you're just going to continue for a while after first gaining 9th level spells.

Metamagic anyone?

[Rob Knotts]

Ryan Dancey(02-07-2007):

D&D 3/3.5, by design, changes roughly every 5 levels. You may find that your group becomes comfortable in one of those 4 quartiles, or you may find that your group enjoys the changes of pace that happen when moving from quartile to quartile.

My guess is that the two new "quartiles" (sextiles?) are intended to integrate epic-level play more smoothly with the core system rather than treating epic levels as a seperate set of optional rules. In other words, progressing into epic levels will probably inflict less of system shock for DMs, players, thier characters, and the setting thier characters exist in.

[Matthew]

I agree with Nerd O Rama; having converted Characters over from previous editions into 3e, I have to say that it's not as complicated as people make out. Even direct level to level transfer should work fine. Once the Characters are in the new edition, they quickly acclimate to the new conditions. I expect the same from 3e Characters moved into 4e.

[GNUsNotUnix]

If they spread the current twenty levels over thirty, then you have to adjust current characters to 3/2 current level. Boo-hoo; that's not as rough as it sounds. Knowing Wizards, they'll have instructions for conversion. Besides, the switch from 2nd edition multiclassing to 3rd edition multiclassing wasn't exactly smooth, either, but no one complained because 3rd edition multiclassing is better, far more streamlined than 2nd ever was.

If they just add ten levels to the current twenty, fine! I'd be glad to see some somewhat-epic rules that aren't horridly broken, and classes that don't become blandly feat-dependent after level twenty.

The fact is, the system could be made to work well or terribly either way. I could care less if they use 20 or 30 levels, just so long as they use them well.

[Fax Celestis]

I think that the +10 levels thing--at least, to my understanding from what I've read--is an inclusion of epic material in the base core rules.

[Matthew]

Apparently, they're powering some stuff down Fax, the idea being to extend the 'sweet spot' or so the article goes that I read... In short, it's probably not as simple as just adding Epic onto Core.

[Rob Knotts]

I think that the +10 levels thing--at least, to my understanding from what I've read--is an inclusion of epic material in the base core rules.

Everything I've read so far supports this. It's not 3x's 20-level progression spread out over 30 levels, it's the addition of new material to cover progression beyond level 20. A level 20 3.5 character updated to 4e rules will still be a 20th level character.

[Fhaolan]

*sigh* I remember the time when reaching 'name' level (8-10 depending on the class) was an achievement that signaled retiring the character and starting over again. 5-6th level was the sweet-spot, where the characters were skilled, but it was still possible to challenge them.

In 3.x, it seems like the game doesn't actually kick in until at least 10th level, and 20th is the retirement level (does anyone actually *play* Epic as written?). 12-15th or so being the sweet spot.

It sounds an awful lot like 30th is to be the retirement level for 4.x, which doesn't bode well for where the sweet spot will be.

I'm hoping this isn't just an example of power creep, and marketing peddling to the powergamers.

[Matthew]

I would guess that's exactly what it is, but I doubt it will change the 'Level 1 fight the Orc' paradigm either.

[ImperiousLeader]

I think it's an attempt to make Epic a part of the Core gameplay. We'll see how that works. I've never touched Epic.

[Curmudgeon]

It's a good idea to lengthen the standard class progression. There are just way too many feats and class choices for 20 levels. And, as others have pointed out, we need a way to seamlessly transition into Epic play.

More standard class levels will mean a greater variety of useful builds. I especially like this idea if existing classes maintain their capstone abilities at level 20 or lower. Variety is good.

[Spiryt]

It's a good idea to lengthen the standard class progression. There are just way too many feats and class choices for 20 levels. And, as others have pointed out, we need a way to seamlessly transition into Epic play.

More standard class levels will mean a greater variety of useful builds. I especially like this idea if existing classes maintain their capstone abilities at level 20 or lower. Variety is good.

I second that. This article isn't saying that straight, but if characters are scaled (20level 3.5 is 30 level 4.0, 10level 3.5 is 15 ec), everything will be more interesting. There will be much more different characters (if more levels means more choices).

[de-trick]

i see how the racial ability's fit in kind of like some templates that with a certain HD you gain a new ability, OK fine
but than if that happens we will never see a dwarfen swashbuckler, or elf barbarian, because they wouldn't be as good as a there favored class would be

but 30 levels come on if they don't reduce xp to each level or make it even, cause after level 10 it takes awhile to level up, an keeps getting harder till a couple of gaming sessions till next level, also what could a level 30 face anything really

[Spiryt]

but than if that happens we will never see a dwarfen swashbuckler, or elf barbarian, because they wouldn't be as good as a there favored class would be

Well I think it's too early for such pessimism. We don't know much for the moment - it's possible that they will make nice universal racial traits. Maybe elven barbarian will be just different than dwarven, not essentialy worse.

We will see.

But that a Dwarf should become more Dwarf-ish? Where the hell does that come from?

You know all humans have mammalian diving reflex, but only some of them can dive onto 200 metres. An example.
I think that developing your racial advantages is quite good idea. It will probably replace or supplement racial/regional feats.

[Starsinger]

but 30 levels come on if they don't reduce xp to each level or make it even, cause after level 10 it takes awhile to level up, an keeps getting harder till a couple of gaming sessions till next level, also what could a level 30 face anything really

How do you know? This is a new edition. 1-30 might take as long as 1-20. And how do you know what a level 30 could face? This isn't 3E or 3.5. This is 4E a level 30 might be no stronger than a level 20 is now, in comparison. Or level 30 might be exactly as strong as level 20 is now, with the extra 10 levels so people gain power slower.

[Golthur]

Well I think it's too early for such pessimism. We don't know much for the moment - it's possible that they will make nice universal racial traits. Maybe elven barbarian will be just different than dwarven, not essentialy worse.

We will see.

I'm guessing that that's why they're limiting the racial abilities to 10 levels, max. It would be difficult to come up with universal racial progressions out to 30 levels for each race and keep them semi-generic.

Even so, though, some of the abilities they've let slip are better for some classes than others - e.g. "elven evasion" is great for nearly every class, except for any class that already has evasion, like rogue or monk.

[Starsinger]

"elven evasion" is great for nearly every class, except for any class that already has evasion, like rogue or monk.

Elven Evasion might just be the name of the feature. If they go with a static save defense like in Saga edition, that might translate to a +1 Reflex Defense.

[Golthur]

Elven Evasion might just be the name of the feature. If they go with a static save defense like in Saga edition, that might translate to a +1 Reflex Defense.

Ouch. That will make switching versions difficult - if they keep the same terminology, but change the meanings of everything.

[DraPrime]

My main question that comes with this is how it's going to affect the CR of some monsters. When something had a CR of 25 it was considered very powerful. Now that you can actually be at level 25 using core rules a CR of 25 will still be powerful, but not considered to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaay up there on the power scale.

[Generic PC]

Indeed it will. However, This system may also make half breeds more playable, making them get a choice between say the Elven Progression and the Human Progression.

[Foolosophy]

How do you know? This is a new edition. 1-30 might take as long as 1-20. And how do you know what a level 30 could face? This isn't 3E or 3.5. This is 4E a level 30 might be no stronger than a level 20 is now, in comparison. Or level 30 might be exactly as strong as level 20 is now, with the extra 10 levels so people gain power slower.

this i would love.
more level ups = more development
but at the same time
more level ups != a fast increase in power

right now d&d changes frequently in "power level" every few levels. If you with to avoid this (so that you stay longer in your preferred range of power) you can do this by reducing xp gained...which makes the game feel less rewarding for many players. Depending on character concept this may result in stagnation.
A 30 level d&d with 30 being about equal to 20 in 3.5 could solve this problem. You level up at a steady pace, gain new abilities, but instead of having a harsh jump in power level ever so often* you get a softer, more natural power curve.

*i.e. when the casters get 5th level spells

[Matthew]

My main question that comes with this is how it's going to affect the CR of some monsters. When something had a CR of 25 it was considered very powerful. Now that you can actually be at level 25 using core rules a CR of 25 will still be powerful, but not considered to be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaay up there on the power scale.

The new Monster Manual will apparently contain Monsters with CR 1-30. Given the nature of CR this will all be relative to actual Party Strength, which is not a constant, even at the same level; I doubt that will change.

this i would love.
more level ups = more development
but at the same time
more level ups != a fast increase in power

right now d&d changes frequently in "power level" every few levels. If you with to avoid this (so that you stay longer in your preferred range of power) you can do this by reducing xp gained...which makes the game feel less rewarding for many players. Depending on character concept this may result in stagnation.
A 30 level d&d with 30 being about equal to 20 in 3.5 could solve this problem. You level up at a steady pace, gain new abilities, but instead of having a harsh jump in power level ever so often* you get a softer, more natural power curve.

*i.e. when the casters get 5th level spells

More mechanical development, maybe, but that doesn't equal absolutely better. Levels are always going to create a power disparity, no matter how small you pretend the increments are, the difference between Level 1 and Level 30 will be about thirty time the power of Level 1.

[Logic]

Unless levels 21-30 are closer to epic levels, just with a better system backing them, the system mechanic cannot be very d20. In order to make the same mechanics similar to the ones we currently enjoy, and have 30 be the new 20, we will need to get ourselves some new d30s.