4th Edition: Vancian magic system

[jamroar]

Vancian magic system – there’s an element of that we held on to, but it’s a much smaller fraction of their overall power. A wizard will never completely run out of spells. They can run out of their “mordenkainen’s sword, however”.

Hmm, how would this work, you think? Are they going to fold the warlock into the wizard by giving them invocation slots / unlimited at will or per encounter low level spell slots? Allow spells to be prepared as an action during combat over several rounds?

[Morty]

Where's that quote from?

[Starsinger]

Oh! This excites me! Please don't be pulling my leg...

[Beleriphon]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x...LC-DND062006FP

Looks like the Wizards of the Coast website.

Hmm, how would this work, you think? Are they going to fold the warlock into the wizard by giving them invocation slots / unlimited at will or per encounter low level spell slots? Allow spells to be prepared as an action during combat over several rounds?

I expect that it will mirror in some way that the Force powers work in the new edition of Star Wars. You can use your abilities X times per encounter, and after each encounter with a minute of rest they reset and are usable again. There would of course be other actions and abilities that will reset your abilities during an encounter.

[Solo]

Sounds like they're gonna work in reserve feats as a class feature.

[Matthew]

All I have got to say is:

Andy Collins - "Being a Wizard is about blasting people with magical energy."

[puppyavenger]

So there removing one of the wizzards sole limiting features?

[Diggorian]

I could easily see it being some modified version of the Spell Points variant in UA.

It's worked well in our campaign from low to mid level, although we tweaked it with the Vitalizing variant incurring "mental fatigue and exhaustion" (penalties to the casting stat and another mental stat). This made casting truely a strain on the mind.

[KIDS]

This is incredible; I really look forward to this change instead of the, as someone aptly put it, "narcoleptic wiz/clr team".

[yango]

I expect that it will mirror in some way that the Force powers work in the new edition of Star Wars. You can use your abilities X times per encounter, and after each encounter with a minute of rest they reset and are usable again. There would of course be other actions and abilities that will reset your abilities during an encounter.

Thats my theory on how fighters will work (since they did say they were going to work in ToB stuff, and force powers and ToB maneuvers are very similar mechanically).

So there removing one of the wizzards sole limiting features?

Not if spells are going to be on the whole not as powerful (I don't see Warlock invocations being overpowered).

[Fax Celestis]

I expect that it will mirror in some way that the Force powers work in the new edition of Star Wars. You can use your abilities X times per encounter, and after each encounter with a minute of rest they reset and are usable again. There would of course be other actions and abilities that will reset your abilities during an encounter.

This is where my money's at, considering they "are utilizing concepts from Star Wars Saga and the ToB."

[Morty]

Bleh. This way they'll turn wizards into warlocks. I sincerely hope this prediction is wrong. I'd prefer even spell points over that.

[yango]

I expect that it will mirror in some way that the Force powers work in the new edition of Star Wars. You can use your abilities X times per encounter, and after each encounter with a minute of rest they reset and are usable again. There would of course be other actions and abilities that will reset your abilities during an encounter.

Thats my theory on how fighters will work (since they did say they were going to work in ToB stuff, and force powers and ToB maneuvers are very similar mechanically).

So there removing one of the wizzards sole limiting features?

Not if spells are going to be on the whole not as powerful (I don't see Warlock invocations being overpowered).

[Ulzgoroth]

All I have got to say is:

Andy Collins - "Being a Wizard is about blasting people with magical energy."

Ah. So they aren't planning to run any class that is about having a wide variety of magical tools that can be applied to all sorts of situations then? Or does the cleric get to keep the interesting side of magic, while the wizard becomes an over-int field gun?

Gah. Can't really judge until actual material is released, but that sounds very bad.

[[Insert Neat Username Here]]

Truespeakers can use magic as often as they want, but they need to make a skill check. Could it be something like that?

[bosssmiley]

All I have got to say is:

Andy Collins - "Being a Wizard is about blasting people with magical energy."

I think there may be a certain Batman Ninja Wizard slinking over Mr Collins rooftops to larn that boy the truth some time in the near future.

That said per-encounter/Wow-style cooldown casting would be a less bad mechanic than narcolepsomancy vancian casting. Although why WOTC just don't go the whole XPH 'spell points' hog I don't know. It just ... works.

[Lapak]

As my own random speculation, maybe they'll be able to cast many times during the day but only cast any given spell so many times before they lose it? So their spell slots become repetitions allowed?

Maybe once you've cast Fireball five times, say, you've exhausted that energy-track in your mental muscles, but you can still throw Lightning Bolts?

[Morty]

Although why WOTC just don't go the whole XPH 'spell points' hog I don't know. It just ... works.

I don't know, because it appeared in 666 other various other games and is so utterly unoriginal that it's no wonder WoTC is trying to come up with something new?
It'd be better than per-encounter mechanics, but for casters everything is.

[DraPrime]

With every major change that WotC lists, they make it easier to screw up the new addition. It could turn out to be amazing, but there's just so many things that could be ruined.

[Enzario]

I expect that it will mirror in some way that the Force powers work in the new edition of Star Wars. You can use your abilities X times per encounter, and after each encounter with a minute of rest they reset and are usable again. There would of course be other actions and abilities that will reset your abilities during an encounter.

I sincerely hope they tweak the Force mechanics quite a bit, since in SW saga you get a VERY limited number of them. Imagine casters with less spells prepared than a Warblade has readied...

[Zeta Kai]

Well, as some you may know by now, I'm not a huge fan of Vancian magic systems. So this is the best thing I've heard about 4E yet. Don't get me wrong, I'm still not ready for 4.0, but this definitely a step in the right direction.

[Pokemaster]

I sincerely hope they tweak the Force mechanics quite a bit, since in SW saga you get a VERY limited number of them. Imagine casters with less spells prepared than a Warblade has readied...

I thought about setting up a system where spellcasters could cast a number of spells per encounter equal to the difference between their spellcasting ability modifier and the spell's level, so a level 5 wizard with 18 intelligence could cast 4 cantrips, 3 level 1 spells, 2 level 2 spells and 1 level 3 spell. I never really figured out how a level 7 wizard with 18 intelligence would work though.

[SilverClawShift]

I have to admit, this and the racial talk have my interest piqued. Magic is fun, but the way wizards and sorcerers work is never exactly what I had in mind for what magic really is. I'll be very interested in seeing what they come up with.

I know everyone is worried, but frankly, I'm excited as all heck. If it sucks, I'll just keep playing 3.5. Between the dozens of classes, hundereds of prestige classes, and a mountain of homebrew stuff to sift through, 3.5 will still always be there.
And if it's fantastic, then hey, fantastic game system just waiting to be enjoyed, homebrewed, and expanded.

It's win win.

[RaistlinandPals]

More spells per day for wizards and better capability in both battlefield control and blasting? It must be my birthday!

[Citizen Joe]

I think its been slowly moving away from Vancian magic system as they went through the editions and expansions.

When they added the sorcerer in 3.0 they tested out removing the memorization but restricting spells to a smaller set.

When they added the Warlock, they removed the spells per day limitation and limited magic to a very few effects (which could then be modified).

I suspect they will aim some place in the middle.

[kermel]

One of the problems with Vancian magic is that, at high levels, you have to spend a lot of time allocating all of those low level slots you have available. This could be solved by keeping Vancian magic for your highest spell level (or maybe your two highest spell levels), but introducing something else (per day, per encounter, at will, spell points, or whatever) for lower levels.

That way you would still get to make a choice regarding your best spells for the day, which is a tactically interesting feature IMO, but with less annoying book-keeping. That would make life easier to DMs: it's much faster to write down "Yurgol the 13th level NPC necromancer has 1 Mordenkainen's Sword memorized, can cast any 5th or 6th level spell once per encounter, and any 4th level or lower spell at will" than doing the whole list.

[Irreverent Fool]

All I have got to say is:

Andy Collins - "Being a Wizard is about blasting people with magical energy."

Isn't that a warlock's job?

[Irreverent Fool]

I think its been slowly moving away from Vancian magic system as they went through the editions and expansions.

When they added the sorcerer in 3.0 they tested out removing the memorization but restricting spells to a smaller set.

When they added the Warlock, they removed the spells per day limitation and limited magic to a very few effects (which could then be modified).

I suspect they will aim some place in the middle.

The sorcerer was around before 3.0

[Citizen Joe]

Maybe your best (tier 1) spells need to be prepared/energized or what not.

Your next best (tier 2) spells can be cast spontaeously, but draw power from you.

Your least spells (tier 3) are mastered and you can cast them with little drain.

As you advance, these tiers move up. Ritual spells need to come out of the spell lists (like identify). Those seem to fall into a different category.

[Stephen_E]

The other way could be to run a dual system.

Reduce the Wizards spells they can cast by 50% but give them Warlock invocations as well (I've generally seen the warlock held as weak at high levels).

That would leave the Wizard with a limited "batman" capacity, but he uses the invocations for general combat purposes.

The other possibility would be if they made the vancian part of magic work similiar to Artificer Infusions, generally take a minute to cast, and they have the their Warlock powers for unprepared combat, and general combat after the 1st round.

Both of thse would still leave the Wizard considerable power, but blunt his ability to rule combats. If you look at traditional fanatsy there are few examples where the the wizard can fire of complex spell after complex spell during a combat.

Possible example -
Wizard casts a few low level buffs before combat and then cast a "irresistable dance" in her right hand. Charges into combat firing arcane bolts woth the left hand in support of the fighters and then slaps in the iressitable dance (or whatever other nasty you wish to choose) when the opportunity presents. Then they choose, based on the tactical situation, whether to keep balsting or to cast another biggy. - You could also say that they can start casting the biggies while arcane blasting. So every 5 rounds or so the Wizard can pop out a Vancian spell, but the rest of the time they're stuck with Warlocking. Makes Time Stop less of a killer.

Stephen