4th Edition: Vancian magic system

[Tormsskull]

I think that Vancian magic can work in the right setting, but I don't prefer it.

And I think we can all agree that certain spells are just insane. Here's to hoping that 4e balances spells for Core, and then when they introduce splat books they keep them balanced.

[Dausuul]

I think that Vancian magic can work in the right setting, but I don't prefer it.

And I think we can all agree that certain spells are just insane. Here's to hoping that 4e balances spells for Core, and then when they introduce splat books they keep them balanced.

Whoa, let's not go overboard, here. I'll settle for balanced spells in Core. Expecting consistent balance from splatbooks is a bit much.

[Khanderas]

A drain system based on Shadowrun's style of magic would be great balance-wise, while still allowing people to live their power fantasies.

Also, Vancian casters don't re-learn the spell everytime they cast it. The wizard's mind is not made to contain universe-changing cosmic power, so the wizard has to craft the magical energy and "store" it (i forget where though) in such a way that it is ready to be called upon when needed. When it is released, he doesn't "forget" the spell, it just isn't built up anymore.

Exactly. In my mind Wizard memorizing of a spell means you are empowering your mind with one (or more) copies of that spell.
In modern terms, the wizard is a gun, depending on levels he have slots for bullets of different sizes (spell-levels). The bullets he make himself when memorizing. The actual casting is just pulling the trigger and things like targets and such are not determined until that time.

Sorcerers much the same except the bullets are "undetermined" until fired. They still have different sizes.


I think it will be much like what someone wrote in the beginning. Some evocation type spells at <Max spellslot> - x will progress from Spellslot -> per encounter -> at will. That way, there will always be some type of bullet in the gun, although it wont be of the highest level castable by the wizard.

[Ivellios]

This is nuts. Low spells per day is the only class drawback. If they give more spells per day to wizards, they better do the same for sorcerers AND give sorcerers more spells known.

[Khanderas]

This is nuts. Low spells per day is the only class drawback. If they give more spells per day to wizards, they better do the same for sorcerers AND give sorcerers more spells known.

I think it will be less spell slots overall, but some spells (not all spells, summoning was mentioned for example) and spell levels (no infinite casting of your highest spellslot) will be rechargable per encounter (instead of 8 hour rest) or even at will. Or some other way. We are all speculating, its part of the fun :)

The basic idea is not to make the casters more powerful, if anything they will problebly be less powerful at higher levels (since the general concensus is that casters are Overpowered at higher levels) but they will be able to keep going instead of :
* 2 encounters: Wizard demands 8 hour rest. Everyone rests because otherwise the player of the Wizard becomes cranky and/or the wizardless encounters can very well TPK.

[Person_Man]

You know, the more I think about it, the more I like the idea of killing the current Vancian system. D&D is essentially six things:

1) Hanging out with your friends
2) Roleplaying
3) Storytelling
4) Skill Encounters
5) Combat Encounters
6) Metagaming

Let's assume that 4.0 kills Vancian spellcasting. In exchange, a magic user can use a certain number of known spells that can be used once per encounter (most likely with some sort of recovery mechanism, so that you can spend a round regaining your spells for that encounter), plus a small number of spells that can only be used X times per day (presumably non-combat spells, like Identify, Detect Thoughts, etc).

This new magic system should have no impact on hanging out with your friends. Nothing is more powerful then Cheetos and Mountain Dew. (The new online technology might, but that's another thread).

It should have little impact on your roleplaying or the DM's storytelling. Whatever you want to call it, you'll still be a Magic User of some sort, and you can build whatever fluff you want around it.

Hopefully, 4.0 should limit Magic Users' ability to solve Skill Encounters with magic. They've been very clear that one of the main goals of 4.0 is niche protection. So most spells like Find Traps, Invisibility, Silence, Summon Monster, Charm Person, etc. will either be eliminated (because they are not related to "blasting things with magical energy") or severely limited. This is a good change, in my opinion, as niche protection generally leads to better party balance and a better overall game experience.

And finally, it's my hope that a new magic system will make combat much better. To use a poorly constructed metaphor:

In 3.5, your Magic User has a machine gun. Everyone else on the battlefield has swords. So as long as he has bullets to shoot and is smart enough to know how to use them, the Magic User wins, unless there's another Magic User on the battlefield, and then whoever shoots first wins. But he essentially starts with only a few bullets, so at early levels, the Magic User is only useful for one or two combats. And then he sucks for the rest of the day. As he gains levels he gains bullets. Eventually, he has enough bullets to dominate every combat. And any semblance of game balance breaks down. It's still fun to walk out onto the field and shoot everyone, but it makes all your friends with swords feel left out.

In 4.0, your Magic User has a has a six shooter. And so does everyone else. You each have six bullets. Certainly, there are different types of guns, guns made for short, medium, and long range, different special ways to shoot, different protections you might wear, etc. But you're all on a level playing field, and you all have a certain number of bullets that you can use each encounter. Everyone is theoretically at the same power level, you just focus on different aspects of the battlefield.

If they play test a lot and do it correctly, the magic system in 4.0 could be an infinite improvement over 3.5. But if they do it poorly, it will destroy the uniqueness of the D&D magic system and turn D&D into WoW. And nobody wants that.

[nagora]

And finally, it's my hope that a new magic system will make combat much better. To use a poorly constructed metaphor:

In 3.5, your Magic User has a machine gun. Everyone else on the battlefield has swords. So as long as he has bullets to shoot and is smart enough to know how to use them, the Magic User wins, unless there's another Magic User on the battlefield, and then whoever shoots first wins. But he essentially starts with only a few bullets, so at early levels, the Magic User is only useful for one or two combats. And then he sucks for the rest of the day. As he gains levels he gains bullets. Eventually, he has enough bullets to dominate every combat. And any semblance of game balance breaks down. It's still fun to walk out onto the field and shoot everyone, but it makes all your friends with swords feel left out.

In 4.0, your Magic User has a has a six shooter. And so does everyone else. You each have six bullets. Certainly, there are different types of guns, guns made for short, medium, and long range, different special ways to shoot, different protections you might wear, etc. But you're all on a level playing field, and you all have a certain number of bullets that you can use each encounter. Everyone is theoretically at the same power level, you just focus on different aspects of the battlefield.

I suspect the situation will be more like this:

In 1ed spell casters could choose various types of ammo for differing situations but were limited by how much they could carry overall and by how much of each class of ammo they could carry within that overall limit. Reloading took a long time and was difficult and often expensive. Gaining access to new types of ammo was a rare thing and not guaranteed to ever happen for most casters.

By 4e, spellcastering has degenerated to the point where all have instant access to airstrikes that they can call in as often as they like, although the aircraft become slightly smaller after a while. A quick lie down will restart the cycle all over again.

If they play test a lot and do it correctly, the magic system in 4.0 could be an infinite improvement over 3.5. But if they do it poorly, it will destroy the uniqueness of the D&D magic system and turn D&D into WoW. And nobody wants that.

Place your bets

[Dausuul]

I suspect the situation will be more like this:

In 1ed spell casters could choose various types of ammo for differing situations but were limited by how much they could carry overall and by how much of each class of ammo they could carry within that overall limit. Reloading took a long time and was difficult and often expensive. Gaining access to new types of ammo was a rare thing and not guaranteed to ever happen for most casters.

By 4e, spellcastering has degenerated to the point where all have instant access to airstrikes that they can call in as often as they like, although the aircraft become slightly smaller after a while. A quick lie down will restart the cycle all over again.

What are you basing that assessment on? Given that one of the express design goals in 4E was to make wizards less powerful at high levels relative to fighters, I find it highly unlikely that wizards will suddenly become vastly more powerful.

Moving away from Vancian casting is not the only change being made.

[Matthew]

Ermm... what if they just 'power Fighters up'?

[Dausuul]

Ermm... what if they just 'power Fighters up'?

To match 3.5E "I can singlehandedly annihilate monsters 4-5 CRs above my level" wizards?

Seems... unlikely. And even if they do, it hardly matters; then you're just making the numbers bigger.

[Matthew]

I wouldn't put it past Wizards at all. Especially the way Andy Collins is talking about 'cool' things in the Video. The thing is Spell Casters are required to be powerful to defeat high CR Monsters. I doubt their solution was to power down both Monsters and Spell Casters, rather than power up Non Spell Casters.

[Citizen Joe]

Ooh, I know how its gonna work...
[cynic]
Everyone is going to have a basic attack form, be it fighting with swords or slinging blasties. However, they will make special collectible cards to represent spells and other special attacks. The more levels you get, the more cards you can keep in your arsenal. Then you can either do your standard attack or use your rare special ability card.
[/cynic]

[Solo]

Ooh, I know how its gonna work...
[cynic]
Everyone is going to have a basic attack form, be it fighting with swords or slinging blasties. However, they will make special collectible cards to represent spells and other special attacks. The more levels you get, the more cards you can keep in your arsenal. Then you can either do your standard attack or use your rare special ability card.
[/cynic]

And the wizard will be able to Mindcrush people?

[Yahzi]

I hate them and the whole 'encounters per day' mentality.

Dogs, yes!

4 encounters per day x 13 per level = 20th level by Xmas.

Bleh.

[Funkyodor]

This is what I'm thinking when I hear the proposed 'spells at will, spells per encounter, and spells per day' system that WotC has proposed for AD&D v4. Lets use Magic Missile, Invisibility, and Fireball(tm) in the example. A caster as he progresses gets access to X at will, X per encounter, and X per day spells. Magic Missile is default per encounter, to change it to at will it takes up 2 of at will spells. Once he gets invisibility it is a per day spell, to change it to per encounter takes 3 spells, and is unable to be made into an at will spell. Once he gets Fireball(tm) it is a per day spell, to change it to a per encounter takes 3 spells, but to change it to an at will takes 7 spells (because an at will Fireball(tm) just sounds too cool). As the Wizard progresses, he gets access to more spells from the relevant positions and has the options to switch around spells at listed costs. So they can limit the number of new spells available at each level, spread spells out across 25! levels, and still keep the consumer intrested with the myriad of customizable Wizard options available. Sorceror/Psionic might just have different spell selections or varying numbers of will/encounter/day spells. My 2 cents.