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2018-01-03, 05:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-03, 05:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Yes people have said that, no you can't draw your bizarre conclusions from those statements.
But thank you for once again demonstrating your willingness to resort to insulting little fallacies such as this false equivalency you've just attempted.
It's hard to play a group game without any sort of communication, and the only way that communication is "storytelling" is if you fall back on the blithering nonsense of all communication being storytelling.
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2018-01-03, 05:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I question the utility of defining "story" in that fashion. It sounds like it's perilously close to defining "story" as "railroading," given the similarities in application. The only examples I can think of are, essentially, modules. The story is already there, just waiting for characters to pretend their actions in it are meaningful rather than pre-scripted, and that their actual characterizations are meaningful rather than window dressing to be discarded if it would disrupt "the story."
Since we're having page upon page of argument over whether this definition or one that's too broad should be used, what utility do you find this definition to have? What are you trying to get across or discuss that uses this definition and finds it more useful than the broader one you decry?
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2018-01-03, 06:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
There's no "conclusion involved", they're saying it, right here on the page in this thread. They've said that one cannot play an RPG without storytelling... YOU'VE said that one cannot play an RPG without storytelling. Do I really need to go find posts where you've said exactly that?
In your own words, right there, in this thread, not only are you claiming that we can't engage in playing an RPG without "doing story", you're claiming that we can't LIVE without "doing story".
Oh. I must have imagined this:
I wonder if people are ever going to get tired of claiming "no one said that" and then having quotes of someone saying exactly what "no one said" posted.
Wow... you're not just grasping for insulting nonsense, you actually believe it. That's very unfortunate for you.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-03 at 06:37 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
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2018-01-03, 06:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
As far as I can tell, Max's definition of "telling a story" is what most people would call "consciously trying to write good fiction using an undergrad textbook on literary analysis as a how-to guide".
I apologize if that sounds dismissive, but I see this definition of "storytelling" (in the context of RPGs) to be bizarrely specific and strangely applied.
Nearly every TTRPG has implicit character arcs due to increased power over time, and I can't imagine a group playing a TTRPG without having themes, archetypes, or genre expectations.
On the other hand, it's quite common for players to have characters without consciously planned character arcs, or curves, or narrative "try-fail cycles",* and I don't even know what "narrative roles" would mean in a TTRPG context.
Mostly this just seems very divorced from the practical reality of how people actually sit down and play these games.
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2018-01-03, 06:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Again, I'm not denying saying it. I'm just pointing out that your conclusions drawn from the fact that all roleplaying involves storytelling are bizarre.
Oh. I must have imagined this:
I wonder if people are ever going to get tired of claiming "no one said that" and then having quotes of someone saying exactly what "no one said" posted.
[edit]or more specifically, I should say "...by providing quotes that don't actually mean what you claim they mean" [/edit]
Wow... you're not just grasping for insulting nonsense, you actually believe it. That's very unfortunately for you.Last edited by Aliquid; 2018-01-03 at 07:03 PM.
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2018-01-03, 06:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
"Gosh 2D8HP, you are so very correct (and also good looking)"
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2018-01-03, 07:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
First, it's not railroading if the player does it to themself.
Second, it has nothing to do with being a prescripted story, or arc, or series of events. A player can say "I want my character to have an arc of a fall from grace and eventual redemption", and then either just through their in-character actions or via coordination with the GM make that story happen over the course of the campaign as events unfold. Nothing is set in stone, but there's a "narrative" journey and eventual destination that the player wants to go on.
And that example would be but one example of what I mean by "story focused". If anyone has a better term than "story focused" that also doesn't have the baggage and conflicting meanings of "narrative focused", then I'm all ears.
Meanwhile, a player who is "character focused" might simply take the events and situations as they evolve through cause & effect and complex interactions inside the game, or establish that their character has a goal and will work to reach it, but without the player ever engaging in any "narrative" journey around that goal. Story never enters into it.
Actually, it's based in part on listening to hours and hours of many very accomplished and talented writers talk at length and detail about what separates a story from a sequence of events, but it really has nothing to do with bad undergrad textbooks written by people who never wrote anything worth reading.
And "dismissive" is pretty much the tone of at least half the posts directed at me so far in this thread, so you're not alone.
Just increasing power isn't really an inherent character arc for the PC as such, any more than a real person getting a college education and a better job is an inherent character arc for the real person.
Back when I actually had the opportunities to play, I did it without themes, archetypes, or genre expectations... all of which I've found to be a minefield of potential counter-enjoyment both in fiction and in gaming.
What's divorced at least from how I play is the notion that storytelling is involved.
No characters, dramatic curves, or narrative cycles involved, either deliberate or unintentional. No intent to create a story or any sort of coherent narrative. No storytelling involved of any kind.
E: But as kyoryu points out, there are those out there who DO engage in playing RPGs in a way that's centered around intentional (not necessarily prescripted, but intentional) character arcs, "try-fail cycles", rising and falling tension, and other forms of fictional structure, and are willing to even share control of their characters if it makes for a more "satisfying story" or "exploration of theme".Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-03 at 07:24 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-03, 07:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
First, it's not fact, it's your opinion, that you're trying to pawn off as fact.
Second, there are no conclusions involved, you just said once again made the claim that all roleplaying is storytelling, right there, in the words of your post -- how is the claim that all roleplaying is storytelling not also a dismissal as impossible of any roleplaying that is not storytelling?
There's no conclusion, there's no interpretation, there's no "finding meaning". The words and their meaning are right there in the posts to be seen.
You swap out one word for another to make an absurd statement that looks superficially like something I said, claim it's equivalent or analogous to what I said, and then pretend that you're not just trying to be belittling and derisive?
Whatever.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-03, 07:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
OK, very simplified example to try to get some light out of this heat...
As much as the show makes me roll my eyes and change the channel, imagine two gamers in a "power rangers" based campaign.
By my understanding of the terms, here's how the two go about things:
The "story-focused" gamer goes through the process that the characters in these stories go through of building up to the end of the "episode" when the big combined mech is finally unleashed, and then the big attack is finally unleashed, for the victory after much (at least intended) rising tension.
The "character-focused" gamer thinks "my character wants to beat this monster and save the city, therefore we're going to bring out the big combined mech and the big attack and end this crap right now before anyone gets hurt" and the "episode" is over in five minutes. Sure, you can come up with characters who fall into the dramatic buildup while acting in character, and come up with situations that demand the dramatic buildup, but eventually that turns into an ugly "well isn't that convenient" pileup.
Similar examples can be constructed from a lot of anime, too.
The "story-focused" gamer is more likely to want genre-emulation, to intentionally play things out so that the sort of story they're looking for will result.
The "character-focused" gamer is more likely to want their character to be genre-savvy, because their character is from a world where those genre elements are part of the fabric of reality and should be aware of them.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-03 at 07:37 PM.
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-03, 08:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
When I use the literal denotation of the word, then it is a fact, not an opinion.
Second, there are no conclusions involved, you just said once again made the claim that all roleplaying is storytelling, right there, in the words of your post -- how is the claim that all roleplaying is storytelling not also a dismissal as impossible of any roleplaying that is not storytelling?
There's no conclusion, there's no interpretation, there's no "finding meaning". The words and their meaning are right there in the posts to be seen.
You swap out one word for another to make an absurd statement that looks superficially like something I said, claim it's equivalent or analogous to what I said, and then pretend that you're not just trying to be belittling and derisive?
This is a completely concise and clear explanation of your view, and I agree with everything you said.
With a "story-focused" game, a player will often deliberately do something counterproductive, just to keep the "drama" or "tension" at the right level. Another example would be a "horror" theme game, where the party decides to "split up"... just like in the movies. Any sane person knows that just leads to people dying. In a "story-focused" game, someone might say "ok, my character flaw is greed, so I need to think of a nice ironic way for greed to get me killed by this psycho". In a "character-focused" story, you would stick together, watch each other's backs at all times, and not walk into obvious traps.
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2018-01-03, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I really want to nitpick this for being an example of how a ranger would get their powers stripped from them (as established in the first episode). That would be in bad form however since you adequately explained your position.
The problem is you seem to be saying that the character focused gamer isn't generating a story. And you appear to using the defense that an accomplished writer said that people who don't do things their way aren't writing a "real" story and are simply describing a sequence of events. This is similar to many skilled chefs who would say that someone making Kraft Dinner isn't "really" cooking. Except making Kraft Dinner is cooking and it would be pretty foolish to try and argue otherwise.Firm opponent of the one true path
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2018-01-03, 08:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I appreciate that.
To me at least, it's more like half a dozen award-winning and "best selling" chefs who make their livings cooking for people, plus quite a few of their guests on their weekly show, consistently saying that buying a list of items from a grocery store isn't cooking a meal.It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-03, 09:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Believe it or not, I don't think it's necessary to debate the whole of modern epistemology in order to come to a reasoned definition of collaborative storytelling. I just find it remarkable that you do.
Aha, turning my own criticism back against me. How entirely surprising and not at all expected.
Ok, so let me walk you through my process, forwards.
We start with a question. In this case, the question as I understand it is "Are tabletop RPGs necessarily examples of collaborative storytelling?"
The next step is defining the terms we are using. Thus far, no one seems to be debating the definition of "tabletop RPG" so I think we can take that one as read. The terms we seem to need to define are "collaborative" and "storytelling."
The easiest way to get accepted expert definitions is to use the dictionary. It's not the only way, but it's straightforward and generally pretty accurate. So here are the definitions I've found using this method.
collaborative: produced or conducted by two or more parties working together.
storytelling: the activity of telling or writing stories.
The definition of collaborative seems to be pretty solid, but there's a tricky word in the definition of storytelling: "stories." So let's take this a step further.
story: an account of imaginary or real people and events told for entertainment.
Which makes the expanded definition of storytelling into
storytelling: the activity of telling or writing accounts of imaginary or real people and events, for entertainment.
These are not specially selected definitions, they are literally the first answers that come up when you google definitions of those words. Try it for yourself, I expect you'll find the same.
Of course, as has been raised, common usage can differ from dictionary definition. The problem is, we don't have any reliable method for determining common usage. I can say it's one thing, you can say it's another, and we have no way of determining who's right (or even if it's either, neither or both of us). So our perceptions of common usage get treated like any other form of anecdotal evidence, and ignored.
Still with me? Having defined our terms, we can now approach the question "are tabletop RPGs necessarily examples of collaborative storytelling?"
Well, how does one play a tabletop RPG? You, as a player, tell me what your character does. I, as a DM, tell you what happens as a result of that. Sometimes we use dice or rulebooks to adjudicate the process of doing that, but that doesn't change the fact that it fits very neatly into the definitions we have created. For entertainment, we are telling accounts of imaginary people and events.
Is it collaborative? That part is a little tougher to nail down. In a tabletop RPG, sometimes the players seem to work against each other or against the DM; however, at the most basic level, the game does not function without at least two people each contributing their own parts of the story.
So by these definitions, which are derived directly from the definitions of experts on definition, tabletop RPGs are games of storytelling, and that storytelling is collaborative. I can now answer the question "Are tabletop RPGs necessarily examples of collaborative storytelling?" with a yes. Or at least with a "Yes, by a given valid definition."
And it is a meaningful definition, because it effectively differentiates games like tabletop RPGs where the central mechanism is description of people and events from those where it isn't, like chess, and basketball, and poker, and Monopoly, and Settlers of Catan.
This was (minus the googling) the process I went through before I first posted on this thread, and before that, the first time I strung the words "collaborative" and "storytelling" together.
When I shared my perspective and saw so much disagreement, that was when I looked up dictionary definitions, to make sure that I wasn't crazy. So I shared that too, to let folks know that my perspective jibed with authoritative definitions.
Still more argument, so I thought about it some more... you know, like you do when you're approaching a discussion in good faith. I realized, hey, even though they aren't the ones I use or the ones I find in the dictionary, there are valid definitions of "collaborative storytelling" that don't describe all tabletop RPGs. Just because I was right doesn't mean everyone else was wrong. I shared that little revelation at the top of page 6.
And yet the acrimony continued, because some folks simply would not accept that there is a valid definition that is different from theirs. So I did the next sensible thing, I looked for authoritative opinions on the subject. I checked out the introduction sections of some of my game books to see how the authors of the games themselves describe what the game is. I shared those discoveries somewhere on page 6 or 7, but I'll reprint them here for convenience's sake.
Now here, I admit, I was a bit selective. Not every book I looked at said "collaborative storytelling" in terms that were quite so clear and pithy. But none of the books said anything that came close to contradicting the definitions I used, either. So I posted these quotes in support of the idea that even the creators of the most popular tabletop RPGs consider them storytelling by definition, and they were thoroughly ignored.
Because that's how you come to a rational answer to a question. You define your terms, you apply them, and when people disagree you consider their opinions and come up with a rational way of determining who is right. I went with researching authoritative definitions, acknowledging reasonable differences of opinion on ambiguous terms, and referring to the stated intentions of the authors.
If you can come up with contradictory definitions with greater authority, or find a place where the designer of a tabletop RPG explicitly states "Storytelling is not necessarily part of this game," cool. Or heck, even acknowledge that the definitions of the dictionary and the game authors are equally valid as the ones you made up and refuse to state clearly, that would be fine too.Last edited by Blackjackg; 2018-01-03 at 11:04 PM. Reason: Fixed a grammatical error
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2018-01-04, 04:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Some thoughts that the previous few posts have shaken loose, in no particular order:
Just so we're clear @Max_Killjoy, before you respond to anything I'm about to post: The above is an example of dismissiveness, based on "Common Usage" of the word Whatever and the "Context" in which it has been applied.
At the same time I'm genuinely curious, can you identify the polemic (aggressive argumentation) technique that resulted from your words being swapped around?
Your assertion, and by proxy that of the chefs in question, is partially correct in that: it can be True given certain conditions.
Concluding that possibility directly connotes validity is incorrect.
I agree with this comment.
For your peace of mind, you're not crazy. Additionally, though there are some conflicts ongoing regarding specific details, I interpret a significant number of the more recent posts as agreeing with you in principle.
There are a lot of things wrong with this. Ultimately however you're making anecdotal arguments.
I think it's more productive to simply address the elephant in the room in that:
This discussion doesn't revolve around something empirically quantifiable, we're not talking about the number of protons in a hydrogen atom here.
As a result it's important to accept that multiple perspectives not only exist but can do so simultaneously and are of equal validity.
If five people sitting around a table playing DnD are approached by a sixth who asks:
#6: "What are you guys doing?"
And all five people simultaneously respond, Then:
Five different answers might be given. All five might be equally valid.
For Example:
#1: "We're playing dungeons and dragons."
#2: "We're questing to save a princess from this giant."
#3: "We're rolling dice."
#4: "We're hanging out together."
#5: "We're waiting for our pizza to be delivered."
If the group's PCs are in fact attempting to save a princess from a giant while the players roll dice to determine the outcome of an action on the table which all five people are sitting around AND a pizza has been ordered Then:
All five answers are equally valid.
The argument I keep seeing from OP, yourself and a few others seems to hinge on the idea that things have to be either this or that. As if collaborative story-telling can't co-exist alongside of tactical combat, role-playing social interactions and imaginary exploration all of which are being adjudicated by rolling dice against pre-set tables.
It can, it does and it will.Last edited by jojo; 2018-01-04 at 04:35 AM.
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2018-01-04, 04:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
"Sleeping late might not be a virtue, but it sure aint no vice. The old saw about the early bird and the worm just goes to show that the worm should have stayed in bed."
- L. Long
I think, therefore I get really, really annoyed at people who won't.
"A plucky band of renegade short-order cooks fighting the Empire with the power of cheap, delicious food and a side order of whup-ass."
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2018-01-04, 08:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Just for clarity, do you mean "it is impossible for roleplaying to not be 'descriptions of events' ", or "it is impossible for roleplaying to not be 'intentionally setting up character arcs, try-fail cycles, dramatic curves, etc' " ?
I have the impression that you mean the former, and can agree with that. If the latter, I can understand why some people feel upset.
I am neither a native speaker, nor familiar with all the rpg lingo, but to me the following descriptions of approaches to playing rpgs make sense:
Boardgaming - using the mechanics to try meet a win condition. Typically Chess, Agricola, Through The Ages, etc.
Storygaming - trying to craft a 'good' story, setting up arcs and drama and so on. Story driven, making decisions for the characters in third person figuratively speaking. Typically Fiasco, GoblinQuest.
Roleplaying - making decisions as if the character, experiencing adventures in a fictional setting (I like Tanariis' definition). Character driven, first person decision making figuratively. Typically traditional RPGs (possibly), larp, and Max&co?
In a game like D&D, I can do one or more of the above.
To me calling RPGs collaborative storytelling to me sounds a little bit misleading, though. My impression is then a game about telling stories, even though technically correct as long as the fictional events will be described.
Calling RPGs storytelling to separate them from other boardgames, meaning "this is a game where we actually describe what is going on in the fiction (can be either through roleplaying or storygaming), instead of only referencing the mechanics" is acceptable to me, however. In that respect I think storytelling is a better umbrella term than RPG, since it covers both styles and distinguish it from board games, but I'm sure an even better term could be found.
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2018-01-04, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
I'm bad about tangents, and those are my opinions of psychology and postmodernism, since them came up.
Both tangents originated with someone making one of their "oh yes you do and here's why" assertions about other people's thought processes.
Acrimony resulted because no matter how many times people told you (and others) that they personally are not doing story when playing an RPG, that this is not how they approach playing their character, that they are not thinking about story or planning out story or working toward any sort of story, etc... you insisted that they were wrong, and then doubled down by insisting that they can't figuratively can't even get out of bed in the morning without doing story. The consistent insistence by you (and some others) that you know their minds and thought processes better than they do, is what made things acrimonious.
As for definitions...
I'm not in California, in fact I'm far from it. If someone presents a definition of California that allows them to claim I'm in California, that definition is flawed.
I'm not a Martian. If someone presents a definition of Martian that allows them to them claim I'm a Martian, that definition is flawed.
When playing a character in an RPG, I'm not doing story. If someone presents a definition of story that allows them to claim that I am doing story...It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-04, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
The problem might be that the general, basic words cover doing nearly anything even vaguely related to whatever it is your talking about. If you make some Mac and Cheese you have cooked a meal, and if you make a seven course roast dinner you have cooked a meal.
Any two year old can tell you a story, but is the story they tell equal to say any story from Shakespeare?
So the focus needs to be a bit more on meaningful storytelling, not just someone that can string a couple words together.
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2018-01-04, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
That wasn't an argument, it was an attempt to illustrate where I'm coming from with examples. I didn't even make absolute statements because it's not universally true, nothing about how people game or what they want out of gaming is universally true... which is part of why the "oh yes you are doing story" nonsense is so exasperating.
Which, again, is part of why "you're doing story no matter what, even if you don't think you are" is so wrong.
I'm honestly lost as to where I said that it can only be one thing at once.
I've been arguing against the idea that it "must be" one thing in particular no matter what (that thing being "storytelling"). I've even said more than once that it CAN be storytelling, but that doesn't mean it MUST BE storytelling.Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2018-01-04 at 10:23 AM. Reason: typo
It is one thing to suspend your disbelief. It is another thing entirely to hang it by the neck until dead.
Verisimilitude -- n, the appearance or semblance of truth, likelihood, or probability.
The concern is not realism in speculative fiction, but rather the sense that a setting or story could be real, fostered by internal consistency and coherence.
The Worldbuilding Forum -- where realities are born.
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2018-01-04, 08:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
You make a core mistake here. You assume that your indifference to a thing is tantamount to not doing it.
You're claiming that not caring about story means you aren't producing one as a byproduct of your actions. This is as absurd as the claim that because I don't care of any apples grow when I grow an apple tree, then therefore apples will never end up in my backyard and I just have a tree, no apples.
If that sounds absurd, good. You're understanding what you are saying.
Frankly, you should probably come around to:
"If I don't think I'm doing a thing, but definitionally I am doing that thing, I need to refine my claim to be more specific."
You've become so attached to a particular connotation of story that you can't separate the connotation you don't like from it's basic meaning.
Then again this'll go entirely ignored so whatever.
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2018-01-04, 09:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Thanks for clearing that up. To my mind, this is another intellectually dishonest tactic: A person uses their own experience as a point of reference for describing their definitions. Then, when another person challenges their definition, the first person says some variant of "You are trying to invalidate my experience! I am insulted!" as some kind of conversational trump card.
You are allowed to define your experience any way you want to. No one can take that away from you. But when you include your experience as a point of reference in a conversation about definition, it is fair game for another person to say "the experience you described could also be defined in this way." I don't need to know the interior of your mind better than you do to say that there are multiple ways of defining the process that you yourself described.
See, these are examples of working backward from conclusion to definition (at least you have presented them as such, I can only guess at the process that went into them). You start with a certainty of self-description and derive your definition (or lack thereof) from that.
I don't know how you define Martian. The way I define it, I tend to agree with you, you probably aren't one. But for the sake of clarity, let's see what the dictionary has to say.
Martian: a hypothetical or fictional inhabitant of Mars.
Now let's see if that applies. Do you inhabit Mars? No? Excellent. We can come to the reasoned conclusion that you are not a Martian.
Although, maybe there are other definitions of Martian that we aren't thinking of. I seem to recall that some astrological types use the term to describe people who were born with Mars in their astrological sign. Or something like that? Anyway, let's say hypothetically some people use the term that way. By that definition, maybe you are a Martian (if you happen to have been born with Mars in your astrological sign). It does not become invalid simply because you don't use the word that way.
Likewise, when you start from the conclusion that you are not "doing story," and derive your definitions from that, you are working backwards. When you work backwards, rather than arriving at a reasonable and defensible conclusion, you arrive at an unreasonable and indefensible definition like "storytelling is defined as that which I'm not doing when I play RPGs."Last edited by Blackjackg; 2018-01-04 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Second section added
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2018-01-04, 10:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
All good and perfectly logical so far.
That makes a difference with some of the philosophical musings on this thread, but it makes no difference in deciding if specifically playing an RPG is storytelling.
When you play an RPG you are 100% working with others to jointly create "a description, either true or imagined, of a connected series of events". When you play an RPG, the players and GM are jointly describing a connected series of events to each other. How can you possibly play an RPG and not do that?
How can you possibly play an RPG and not do that? Easy: I make decisions for my character in the fantasy environment. This in no way describes a connected series of events. I tell the GM what I intend my character to attempt to do. End of story, pun intended. Provided we use the actual definition for story, which is that story is a description or account of events.
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2018-01-04, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Nowhere in in any of those definitions is the word "intent".
No, you are absolutely NOT required to work with others to jointly create "a description, either true or imagined, of a connected series of events" when playing an RPG. This is a completely & utterly false statement.
How can you possibly play an RPG and not do that? Easy: I make decisions for my character in the fantasy environment. This in no way describes a connected series of events. I tell the GM what I intend my character to attempt to do. End of story, pun intended. Provided we use the actual definition for story, which is that story is a description or account of events.
You are correct, the former.Last edited by Aliquid; 2018-01-04 at 10:51 AM.
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2018-01-04, 10:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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2018-01-04, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Intent matters.
You are describing what your characters are doing in the game.
Why is it people keep trying to tell me what I'm doing? This seems to be a common problem among folks trying to prove that all playing an RPG is storytelling, at least in this thread.
Making a decision for your character in a fantasy environment does describe a series of events. That is exactly what it does. "my character attacks the goblin". "my character sneaks into the warehouse". "my character sweet-talks his way past the guard"
As a GM I commonly run into the problem where players use language as if they've already accomplished an action, similar to what you're using as an example, and thus mentally assume it automatically resolves instead of merely declaring their intent to attempt the action.
hahahaha thanks that gave me a good laugh.Last edited by Tanarii; 2018-01-04 at 11:03 AM.
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2018-01-04, 11:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Tanarii, I would love to be a fly on the wall at one of your RPG sessions. A bunch of people sitting around a table not giving any description of what's happening in the game? Must be riveting.
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2018-01-04, 11:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
However in this case it doesn't need to focus on that since it is the umbrella term. RPG gaming is a type of collaborative storytelling much the same as soccer is a type of team sport. The fact that football and baseball and hockey are also types of team sport doesn't detract from the usefulness of the phrase team sport. If I were describing soccer to someone I would most likely begin with the phrase "Soccer is a type of team sport where...". There is a reason why it is at the beginning of so many books (as mentioned above), because it is the fundamental basis of communicating the concept of the action of role-playing.
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2018-01-04, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
Attempts: suddenly not events, apparently.
If I attempt to do a handstand, I am not doing anything. I exist only in a quantum state of fail and success for a few brief moments and then suddenly I either have succeeded or have not.
Also, apparently all of your characters are mute, meaning you never say "Bob says '_____.' "
And the collaborative suddenly means that unless it is 4 people declaring things to have happened with 0 back and forth, discussion, or dispute, it does not count as collaboration. Becausr everyone knows uncertainty, dispute, and discussion have never occured in any collaborative effort, ever.
Come on, dude.
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2018-01-04, 11:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Why collaborative storytelling is a meaningless phrase
This argument is literally just that you're not wrong, and thus if anyone presents a definition that makes you wrong the definition must be wrong. It is then bolstered by two obvious examples where you're right, from which we're apparently just supposed to infer that you're right on the point of contention.