Primarily Undead Campaign

[Goober4473]

I'm considering running a game based around a setting that contains probably more undead than humanoids. Not every PC would be undead, but most would, and a lot of their enemies would. This brings up a lot of problems, however.

First, level adjustemnt. Pretty much every character will have at least +1 LA, and some will have as much as +8. What would you all suggest as a way to handle this? Spellcasters will generally be less powerful, but perhaps that's okay? They get more hp anyways (I'll get to that in a moment). Maybe LA buyout would work?

Next is hit points. All undead have d12 hit dice. My fix is this: instead of rolling each level, characters have a set number of hit points per level, based on the hit die of the class they've taken. A class with d12 hit dice grants 10 hit points per level, a class with d10 hit dice grants 9, a class with d8 hit dice grants 8, a class with d6 hit dice grants 7, and a class with d4 hit dice grants 6. Character with regular undead hit dice gain 10 hit points per level.

So then there's class adjustments. Barbarian undead don't get any Con bonus, since they lack that score. I've fixed this by allowing the whirling frenzy alternate rule from Unearthed Arcana, which replaces the Con bonus with Dex and some speed bonus stuff. But then there are rogues and scouts. Undead are immune to precision damage, so I'm not sure what to do about that. Make sneak attack and skirmish affect undead? Maybe make it d4s against them?

[DraPrime]

Buy Libris Mortis. It's a great book if you want to do this. It also has the solution to your problem. Monster class levels for ghouls, mohrgs, mummies, vampire spawn, and other types of undead.

[Knight_Of_Twilight]

There are rules for sneak attack doing damage to undead, but they revolve around positive energy. Check out Complete champion if you're still curious.

One warning, CR doesn't always work right with undead Pcs, because of their different vulnarabilities and immunities.

[Ranis]

Buy Libris Mortis. It's a great book if you want to do this. It also has the solution to your problem. Monster class levels for ghouls, mohrgs, mummies, vampire spawn, and other types of undead.

Seconded. It'll also give you undead-specific magical items, feats, spells, and reminders and inventive ways to include undead in your campaign. It's been an absolute goldmine of information for me.

It'll also fix all of the problems you're having here, as well.

[Goober4473]

I have the book. The problem isn't monster levels. The problem is that characters will just be missing at least one level of class progression, no matter what. Meaning lower levels spells, lower level special abilities, etc. They'll be high enough level (10 probably) to handle any LA they're allowed to use, but that could potentially mean a level 2 vampire in a level 10 campaign, which may not be quite right.

I didn't see anything in the book about sneak attacking undead. There's a spell that lets you do it, but I'm looking for a class fix, not an item or spell.

I also notice no book seems to ever discuss the balance issues of undead spellcasters getting d12 hit dice, just like every other undead. But I've fixed that one myself.

[Lemur]

On one hand you say that undead casters getting d12 hit dice is a balance issue, but you're also worried about them having level adjustments?

In any case my question is moot, because Libris Mortis has the Necropolitan, which resolves any problems for characters who want to avoid getting an LA.

Complete Champion, as previously mentioned, has class variants for stuff like sneak attacking undead and the like.

[Prometheus]

Perhaps giving Rangers and Druid a connection to Oozes, Constructs, Abberrations, or simply other Undead?

I think many of the immunities ordinarily granted to undead needed be so, especially in a campaign like this:
-mind-affecting effects should only be immune for undead without Int
-poison, paralysis, stunning, and disease could be argued to effect
-ability drain and energy drain could hinderance of negative lifeforce.
-Undead could have a Constitution score, as long as it is with the understanding that it is an entirely different kind of constitution
-Undead could also be granted immunity from blindness, deafness, flat-footed and petrified.
-You could add some flavor to undead PC and monster races by varying which they are immunities they posses

Consider some sort of called-shot varient as a substitute for critical hits and/or sneak attacks. This would come in handy with vampires, disarming foes, destroying sources of animation and also add the feel that Undead can be partially disabled (lose a hand) and still continue. Consider borrowing my disable system:

Spoiler

Show

Instead of receiving sneak attack, Rogues expand their threat range by one. Whenever a character makes a critical, he or she may instead recieve a free disarm attempt, free grapple attempt, free trip attempt or roll 1d12 to determine where a disabling strike targets, ignoring inappropriate results (1 head/neck, 2 back/shoulders, 3 ribs, 4 abdomen, 5 upper right arm, 6 lower right arm, 7 upper left arm, 8 lower left arm, 9 upper right leg, 10 lower right leg, 11 upper left leg, 12 lower left leg). The targeted creature must make a Fortitude save equal to the damage that would be dealt if it was an ordinary critical hit, in order to prevent that part from being disabled (A part disabled multiple times has no additional effect). A disabled head/neck causes the character to become paralyzed. Disabled back/shoulders deal the character 2d6 temporary constitution damage. Disable ribs causes the character to act as if under the Crisis of Breath power with Fortitude save 10. A disabled abdomen causes the character to become nauseated. A disabled upper arm causes that arm to be unable to attack, cast spells with somatic components, use a tower shield, and half the carrying capacity (this stacks with the other upper arm). A disabled lower arm causes that arm to be unable to attack, use a shield, or grab anything. A disabled upper leg prevents running and reduces base walking speed to 5 ft (up to 10 feet with two crutches) - both disabled upper legs removes the ability to walk. A disabled lower leg prevents running and reduces base walking speed to up to 10 feet (up to half base speed with two crutches) - both disabled lower legs removes the ability to walk. A player may crawl with a base climb check of 5 but also takes a cumulative penalty per disabled leg or arm part of -5 on all Climb checks. Other check penalties to skill checks and abilities may be applied as determined by the DM. Magical healing, fast healing, or regeneration equal to or greater than the original damage amount in conjunction with a successful Heal check of 25 sets a disabled part so that is not disabled (if the Heal check fails by 5 or more, the equivalent healing has to be obtained again). Greater Restoration, Heal and Regenerate sets all parts so that they are not disabled; Restoration sets one part so that it is not disabled.

Undeath should also be a strong theme in the plot
-consider having large expanses of time pass almost meaninglessly, for example, in travel, or change to be slower than expected
-note the strong contrast in types of undead, unfeeling apathy and intense passion that consumes the soul: both should be there. Perhaps even base your alignment system off of it.
-Pose the dilema: at what point and what kind of subhumanism (degraded intelligence, degraded morality, degraded power etc) is it okay to force beings into slavery. What is a man and what is a beast?
-What do the undead want in the world? Certainly humans have progressed beyond their basic wants of food and shelter and undead have even less - what is undead society obsessed with?

[Goober4473]

I'm just using Necropolitan as LA +1, because otherwise it's all out of synch with how every other powerful race ever does it.

[leperkhaun]

If you want the PC's to be undead, make them generic undead with basic undead traits and dont charge them a LA for it. Then go if you want something special (like lich or what not) charge them the LA for that.

Anyway, just be careful that you dont end up with 5 clerics with extra turning 8 times and the Disciple of the Sun feat.

[tannish2]

the ravenloft mod was undead heavy, and to avoid screwing rog's over they gave them half sneak attack dice VS undead, i think its a good solution, also, libris mortis is a great book for any undead heavy campaign, really, you might also consider giving the PC's 1 point of free ECL and give EXP as if their ECL was 1 lower

[Kizara]

I'm considering running a game based around a setting that contains probably more undead than humanoids. Not every PC would be undead, but most would, and a lot of their enemies would. This brings up a lot of problems, however.

First, level adjustemnt. Pretty much every character will have at least +1 LA, and some will have as much as +8. What would you all suggest as a way to handle this? Spellcasters will generally be less powerful, but perhaps that's okay? They get more hp anyways (I'll get to that in a moment). Maybe LA buyout would work?

Next is hit points. All undead have d12 hit dice. My fix is this: instead of rolling each level, characters have a set number of hit points per level, based on the hit die of the class they've taken. A class with d12 hit dice grants 10 hit points per level, a class with d10 hit dice grants 9, a class with d8 hit dice grants 8, a class with d6 hit dice grants 7, and a class with d4 hit dice grants 6. Character with regular undead hit dice gain 10 hit points per level.

So then there's class adjustments. Barbarian undead don't get any Con bonus, since they lack that score. I've fixed this by allowing the whirling frenzy alternate rule from Unearthed Arcana, which replaces the Con bonus with Dex and some speed bonus stuff. But then there are rogues and scouts. Undead are immune to precision damage, so I'm not sure what to do about that. Make sneak attack and skirmish affect undead? Maybe make it d4s against them?

I play a Radiant Servant of Pelor.

I win.

That would be a problem you need to address IMO.

[Behold_the_Void]

I play a Radiant Servant of Pelor.

I win.

That would be a problem you need to address IMO.

Could an undead character even become a Radiant Servant of Pelor?

Not to mention it's really easy to disallow.

[Goober4473]

Perhaps giving Rangers and Druid a connection to Oozes, Constructs, Abberrations, or simply other Undead?

I think many of the immunities ordinarily granted to undead needed be so, especially in a campaign like this:
-mind-affecting effects should only be immune for undead without Int
-poison, paralysis, stunning, and disease could be argued to effect
-ability drain and energy drain could hinderance of negative lifeforce.
-Undead could have a Constitution score, as long as it is with the understanding that it is an entirely different kind of constitution
-Undead could also be granted immunity from blindness, deafness, flat-footed and petrified.
-You could add some flavor to undead PC and monster races by varying which they are immunities they posses

Consider some sort of called-shot varient as a substitute for critical hits and/or sneak attacks. This would come in handy with vampires, disarming foes, destroying sources of animation and also add the feel that Undead can be partially disabled (lose a hand) and still continue. Consider borrowing my disable system:

Spoiler

Show

Instead of receiving sneak attack, Rogues expand their threat range by one. Whenever a character makes a critical, he or she may instead recieve a free disarm attempt, free grapple attempt, free trip attempt or roll 1d12 to determine where a disabling strike targets, ignoring inappropriate results (1 head/neck, 2 back/shoulders, 3 ribs, 4 abdomen, 5 upper right arm, 6 lower right arm, 7 upper left arm, 8 lower left arm, 9 upper right leg, 10 lower right leg, 11 upper left leg, 12 lower left leg). The targeted creature must make a Fortitude save equal to the damage that would be dealt if it was an ordinary critical hit, in order to prevent that part from being disabled (A part disabled multiple times has no additional effect). A disabled head/neck causes the character to become paralyzed. Disabled back/shoulders deal the character 2d6 temporary constitution damage. Disable ribs causes the character to act as if under the Crisis of Breath power with Fortitude save 10. A disabled abdomen causes the character to become nauseated. A disabled upper arm causes that arm to be unable to attack, cast spells with somatic components, use a tower shield, and half the carrying capacity (this stacks with the other upper arm). A disabled lower arm causes that arm to be unable to attack, use a shield, or grab anything. A disabled upper leg prevents running and reduces base walking speed to 5 ft (up to 10 feet with two crutches) - both disabled upper legs removes the ability to walk. A disabled lower leg prevents running and reduces base walking speed to up to 10 feet (up to half base speed with two crutches) - both disabled lower legs removes the ability to walk. A player may crawl with a base climb check of 5 but also takes a cumulative penalty per disabled leg or arm part of -5 on all Climb checks. Other check penalties to skill checks and abilities may be applied as determined by the DM. Magical healing, fast healing, or regeneration equal to or greater than the original damage amount in conjunction with a successful Heal check of 25 sets a disabled part so that is not disabled (if the Heal check fails by 5 or more, the equivalent healing has to be obtained again). Greater Restoration, Heal and Regenerate sets all parts so that they are not disabled; Restoration sets one part so that it is not disabled.

Undeath should also be a strong theme in the plot
-consider having large expanses of time pass almost meaninglessly, for example, in travel, or change to be slower than expected
-note the strong contrast in types of undead, unfeeling apathy and intense passion that consumes the soul: both should be there. Perhaps even base your alignment system off of it.
-Pose the dilema: at what point and what kind of subhumanism (degraded intelligence, degraded morality, degraded power etc) is it okay to force beings into slavery. What is a man and what is a beast?
-What do the undead want in the world? Certainly humans have progressed beyond their basic wants of food and shelter and undead have even less - what is undead society obsessed with?

First thing: Rangers and druids don't exist in the world, so no problems there. The world is just too dead to have any real connection to nature.

I realize mind-influencing immunity for almost everyone might be a lot, but that could be kind of cool. It would be extremely hard to magically manipulate undead society.

Speaking of which, undead basically rule the continent, though they keep to their own territory, and only sometimes demand tribute from mortals. Usually already-dead bodies.

I don't use alignments, and I certainly plan to explore what makes an undead creature a person, and what makes them a monster. I'll have to consider what each undead wants in the world.

[Overlard]

the ravenloft mod was undead heavy, and to avoid screwing rog's over they gave them half sneak attack dice VS undead, i think its a good solution

Yeah, I've seen that in at least 2 3.5 books as alternative class features for rogues (I think they lose trap sense).

[Goober4473]

I'm now planning to use that (they do in fact lose Trap Sense). But what about Scouts? Half of skirmish (the AC bonus) already applies against everything, but is still seems like they should be able to get some damage bonus against undead.

[Overlard]

I'm now planning to use that (they do in fact lose Trap Sense). But what about Scouts? Half of skirmish (the AC bonus) already applies against everything, but is still seems like they should be able to get some damage bonus against undead.

There's a feat in Complete Scoundrel that allows ranger and scout levels to stack for favoured enemy and skirmish damage I think. Plus, skirmish damage applies to your favoured enemies, even if they're undead or constructs.

Maybe they could take a feat that allows skirmish to work on all enemies that are normally immune? Maybe they need ranks in knowledge (religion) and (arcana) for it?