Advice: Long-term member of our game is fudging rolls

[Morghen]

Our last session was our first session back in a d20 variant after playing that Star Wars game with the crazy symbols instead of numbers and he basically ran through everything in solo mode. In this system, rolling the max number on a die for damage means you roll it again and add it. Max again? Roll again.

We're 1st level and this guy's 1d6 weapon critted for 52 points and later a regular hit did 31, and his rolls in general were just silly.

The things that allow this: His dice are those invisible Zocchis and his history of using perfectly visible dice to roll numbers like this in the past. But last session the guy sitting next to Cheaty McCheatface told me that he saw the face-up number several times and it was not what CMcC reported to the GM.

Simple solution, right? Kick him out.

But. We've all been playing together for a super long time. (I'm the new guy because I've only been at the table for 7 years.) This guy has the dumbest luck with rolls I've ever seen, and I'm talking about having literally watched him roll 3d6 down the line for character creation and his stats were something like 17, 16, 18, 15, 16, 17, and we've all seen him roll stupid numbers dozens of times over the years, invisible dice or not.

So I need advice. This dude has been friends with two of the guys at the table for something like 25 years and just booting him and not looking back isn't really an option.

[comk59]

Our last session was our first session back in a d20 variant after playing that Star Wars game with the crazy symbols instead of numbers and he basically ran through everything in solo mode. In this system, rolling the max number on a die for damage means you roll it again and add it. Max again? Roll again.

We're 1st level and this guy's 1d6 weapon critted for 52 points and later a regular hit did 31, and his rolls in general were just silly.

The things that allow this: His dice are those invisible Zocchis and his history of using perfectly visible dice to roll numbers like this in the past. But last session the guy sitting next to Cheaty McCheatface told me that he saw the face-up number several times and it was not what CMcC reported to the GM.

Simple solution, right? Kick him out.

But. We've all been playing together for a super long time. (I'm the new guy because I've only been at the table for 7 years.) This guy has the dumbest luck with rolls I've ever seen, and I'm talking about having literally watched him roll 3d6 down the line for character creation and his stats were something like 17, 16, 18, 15, 16, 17, and we've all seen him roll stupid numbers dozens of times over the years, invisible dice or not.

So I need advice. This dude has been friends with two of the guys at the table for something like 25 years and just booting him and not looking back isn't really an option.

I know it's cliche, but... talk to him? Tell him a player saw him fudge his dice, and ask him to try not to do that in the future.

[FreddyNoNose]

Players only use the dice I have when they play my game. No outside dice. There are specific color dice for dice rolls. Ex: Green d20 for toHit Rolls, Blue for backupRolls.

The style and color of dice are determined so they are easy to read at some distance. Some dice are hard to read at a distance.

You can toss in other things like dice have to roll for some distance after hitting the table. Or like a friend of mine did for games, he has dice towers that players must use for all rolls. Combined with your own dice, you get rid of some of the cheating.

Have one player confirm the die rolls from another player. This way they both have to be in on it if there is cheating.

Also, be 100% certain that he isn't cheating. You might remember the great rolls for forget the average and below ones.

[FreddyNoNose]

Tell him a player saw him fudge his dice.

I hate this advice.

First of all it throws away the person who is saying it's power. You know, you weren't good enough to see it on your own and had to be told about it. IF you are the boss, you need to own it.

Second, telling that another player told you means you are pitting players against each other. Stupid idea for a game/social situation like this.

Third, if the person denies it happened AND it didn't actually happen, what do you do then? You look like a punk.

Finally, do a better job of checking all dice rolls by all players. See my other post.

Off topic a bit rantish: If you are playing just a "we are writing a story and we don't kill characters type of game", why does it matter? You are having fun right? It wouldn't be real role playing at that point but story writing. So don't worry about it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Talk to him and either ask him to use easily readable dice, or have the group agree on a readable dice only rule.

Note that I'm a big believer in the GM rolling in front of players, and that every die should stand, such a rule might not go down so well if your table has the GM roll behind a screen most of the time.

While invisible dice are especially bad for the cheating aspect, I also have a hate for any die with a pattern on it, from the all too common occasion of a player not realising they'd read the wrong number until the start of the next character's turn. Dice should ideally be single colour, although spotted or 'blended' dice are fine if you have nothing else (because I own several of the former, and clearly inked numbers are still an easy read), and should have no patterns on the faces. Numbers should be filled in, but many dice come with that done. Players are free to swap dice in and out as many times as they want (I will traditionally swap on a failed roll), as long as they follow these rules. I don't care how pretty they are, they should be readable by everybody at the table.

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if he was using unfair dice in the past, either knowningly or unknowningly (heck, I have a set of unfair d6s I like because they tend towards threes, great for when you're running and want to nudge down damage slightly). But there's nothing to say he was, I've seen incredible luck before.

[Morghen]

Also, be 100% certain that he is cheating.

Yep. Eyewitness testimony makes me nervous.

IF you are the boss, you need to own it.

Misconception somewhere in here. I’m not the GM.

Finally, do a better job of checking all dice rolls by all players. See my other post.

Checking dice rolls feels icky... until now. We’re all grownups and friends and we’ve all been playing for a zillion years. Never needed.

Off topic a bit rantish: If you are playing just a "we are writing a story and we don't kill characters type of game", why does it matter? You are having fun right? It wouldn't be real role playing at that point but story writing. So don't worry about it.

I don’t know what wires got crossed that made you think we’re playing this way, but I’m rabidly opposed to “we don’t kill our Heroes and every PC is a Hero” games. I never realized how superior I sounded until now.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Everyone rolls in a box in the middle of the table and leaves the dice there until the next roll.

[dps]

Assuming that you're certain that he is cheating, and given that you're not the DM, there are really only 3 things that you can reasonably do:

1) You quit the group.

2) Confront him about it, and demand that he quit doing it.

3) Ignore what is going on, and live with it.

I suspect that you're pretty much aware that those are about the only courses of action available to you, and find all of them unattractive.

Not being the DM limits your options. Were you the DM, some of the advice given in this thread about how to handle rolls would be good things to consider.

If you're not certain that he is cheating on the rolls, all I can suggest is that you watch carefully and try to catch him in the act.

[FreddyNoNose]

Yep. Eyewitness testimony makes me nervous.

Misconception somewhere in here. I’m not the GM.

Checking dice rolls feels icky... until now. We’re all grownups and friends and we’ve all been playing for a zillion years. Never needed.

I don’t know what wires got crossed that made you think we’re playing this way, but I’m rabidly opposed to “we don’t kill our Heroes and every PC is a Hero” games. I never realized how superior I sounded until now.

Funny the checking the dice rolls feels icky and yet you are grownups. Trust but verify is adult.

As to crossed wires. The word you need to read is "IF". This that didn't apply, it is as if the words didn't get written.

[Lapak]

Everyone rolls in a box in the middle of the table and leaves the dice there until the next roll.

I'd probably run with this if you want to avoid confrontation. Put it out there as an element to build tension and improve the game: it includes the DM, there will be no fudging in any direction, the dice are going to fall where they may. It's not directed at anyone in particular, but it will solve the problem.

[Morghen]

Funny the checking the dice rolls feels icky and yet you are grownups. Trust but verify is adult.

Here's the thing. We're all friends. And so our GMs don't mandate that all players use a specific set of dice or check all dice rolls by all players or whatever. And in the 10+ years this table has been playing, that trust hasn't been violated until now.

As to crossed wires. The word you need to read is "IF". This that didn't apply, it is as if the words didn't get written.

Off-topic: If you're weirdly unpleasant to people while dispensing advice, you should definitely stop doing that. I mean, that's one way to Internet and if you're having fun, okay. Just know that nobody is going to take your advice IF you act like a jerk to them.

But that's probably not directed at you because I used "if" twice.

Back on topic: Like... what? Are you the Correct Way To RP Fairy, flitting from post to post, making sure everybody knows the right way to play RPGs?

"I just wanted to check in on this thread and make sure everybody knows that if they're not playing XYZ style then they're not really roleplaying."

Well, rest assured, we're not letting you down, CWTRP Fairy. Depending on how session #2 goes we may end up with a couple of deaths.

Everyone rolls in a box in the middle of the table and leaves the dice there until the next roll.

I'd probably run with this if you want to avoid confrontation. Put it out there as an element to build tension and improve the game: it includes the DM, there will be no fudging in any direction, the dice are going to fall where they may. It's not directed at anyone in particular, but it will solve the problem.

That doesn't seem terrible and is likely something close to what we'll be using. If it continues into the next session, we're definitely taking action. If not, and his dice just revert back to their usual nonsense, then we probably won't say anything at all. Hopefully he just had to get that crap out of his system.

[Davrix]

Do not confront him and say another player saw him fudge the rolls. This leads to bad blood. You have to own up yourself to this if your going to be the one confronting him.

the playing it cool method. (if your the Dm)

Let him roll in the next game as normal. If he starts on a hot streak, jokenly say. man let me see that die I cant believe your luck. if he doesn't let you then you can corner him. Sadly this runs with the luck that the time you ask he might of rolled that well. Thing about fudgers though, the longer they have gotten away with it the more it happens. So you can keep doing this every so often in a joking way.

The slightly less douche method. (also if your the DM or simply ask your Dm to enforce this)
Simply ask him to use dice that are more visible as you would like to be able to see everyone's rolls.

The direct method.

Simply tell him that you honestly feel like he is always rolling to good and if he could use more visable dice. If tries to complain simply tell him that if your not cheating then it doesn't matter what dice you use. And if he really starts to complain you pull out the big gun and say look man I know your fudging the dice rolls at times. (Be absolutely sure) We all do it once in awhile but its not fun when all your doing is winning on every hit while the rest of us struggle. (which sounds like this is the case from your post)

Now all this being said If you want to avoid the argument fully I suggest the stealth mission approach. Start sitting next to this guy if you can or have him sitting near you so you can try to look at his dice as you can. if you see him fudge a roll then you can call him directly out on it there and then on the table. Just say I think you read your die wrong man. Hopefully he takes the hint. But if you do this and next game he tries to sit away from you as far as possible then you can bet your undies t hat he is trying to still get away with it. Then you can simply insist he use more visible dice so you can see them.

[Anonymouswizard]

Here's the thing. We're all friends. And so our GMs don't mandate that all players use a specific set of dice or check all dice rolls by all players or whatever. And in the 10+ years this table has been playing, that trust hasn't been violated until now.

Here's the thing, being friends doesn't mean you can't confront somebody about their cheating. Friends are honest with reach other, and while cheating in a game doesn't matter, that also means that cheating in a game makes little sense. Of you don't want to hurt them do it indirectly, such as...

That doesn't seem terrible and is likely something close to what we'll be using. If it continues into the next session, we're definitely taking action. If not, and his dice just revert back to their usual nonsense, then we probably won't say anything at all. Hopefully he just had to get that crap out of his system.

Yeah, like that. I suggest having somebody else sit next to him and just quietly keep their eye out, just so that of the group does confront him you have multiple witnesses.

Also, if you're sitting next to him and see this happening, call him out on it. If he complains just ask the rest of the group to check the die and go with the group consensus, but make sure you do this with other players you see fudging as well (because honestly, we've all misread a roll at some point).

[Kaptin Keen]

Just insist that everyone sees everyone's rolls. All rolls, on the table, for all to see - and if you snatch up your dice before anyone has a chance to see, the roll is forfeit. Don't even make it about that guy. Just introduce a general rule for everyone.

[JAL_1138]

His dice are those invisible Zocchis

You're supposed to fill in the numbers on those, not use them un-inked. Because Gamescience dice are not mechanically polished, the numbers have to be filled in by hand, whether you do it yourself or Gamescience does it for an additional (somewhat costly) fee.

You can use paint, paint pens, permanent markers, or crayon/greasepencil to fill in the numbers and make them legible.

[Darth Ultron]

So I need advice. This dude has been friends with two of the guys at the table for something like 25 years and just booting him and not looking back isn't really an option.

It sounds like there is nothing TO do?

Your options as a player are:

1.Do Nothing
2.Expose him in front of the Whole Group
3.Talk to him over a nice cup of tea

It sure would be nice if you could just do 2 or 3 and the guy would just magically change and be and do exactly what you want...but that most likely won't happen.

So you might as well do 1. Nothing.

After all why do you care if he cheats? Maybe cheating is is way to have fun? You should not judge.

[Incorrect]

After all why do you care if he cheats? Maybe cheating is his way to have fun? You should not judge.

Side track, but It might be an interesting learning experience to play a session where everyone can cheat if they want. Is it more fun, how much will people cheat.

[The Cats]

Don't talk to him. That could lead to him being all affronted (justifiably if you're wrong, to cover his ass if you're not.)

Talk to the group. Quick reminder how dice rolls should work: I tell you what to roll for, you roll in the open where everyone can see. The number should be verifiable by at least one other player. If it was a mistake on the witnesses part, no harm no foul. If dude was really cheating, he'll get that little burn in the back of his head telling him he's totally the reason you're saying all this. Next time he (or anyone) rolls and no one else can see the number, remind them again and ask them to reroll more openly.