Creating privileged/oppressed groups without real world parallels

[Douche]

I realize this is going to be a risky topic but I'm not going to actually draw any real world parallels. Let's be mature and talk about the fictional & the interpersonal communication without actually talking about historical oppression.

So anyway, here's the deal... my industrialized world exists as such, having drawn upon the fictional stereotypes of fictional races.

Gnomes naturally tend to possess genius intellect, are industrious & inventive, cunning and manipulative.

Orcs are noble savages who struggle to maintain their way of life in an increasingly technological world.

I'm sure you're starting to get it now. Elves are also tree hippies whose culture is living in its faded glory, humans are the milquetoast majority, halflings are fat & happy rural folk, etc.

Tieflings & dragonborn are not natural. Tieflings are produced when an individual makes a demon pact (thus, all warlocks become tieflings) and Dragonborn are similar, but they are specifically chosen by dragons. Also, there are half-ogres who are (spoilers lol) secretly an ongoing experiment in genetic engineering.

Anyway, to give you a specific example - with the gnomes and orcs. Gnomes understandably control society (though not openly) and orcs who have been herded towards the cities find themselves working for slave wages.

So I'm sure you can see that the players are always making jokes or getting triggered by the real world parallels here - none of which are intentional. Rather, they are the way that society would naturally shape itself (in my opinion) were these dynamics to exist in a fictional world.

I don't see how to avoid the real world parallels though. And to make it otherwise, I feel would be killing the character of the world.

[Frozen_Feet]

Any oppression will be similar to other cases of oppression, even if the involved parties are neither representative nor analogous of any real people.

This holds true at all levels of action. If an elf murders a dwarf over the ownership of a magic sword, you can draw parallels between this and real murder, even though none of elves, dwarves nor magic swords exist in reality. It does not matter that the crime was not inspired by any real case, as there will be similarity by virtue of murder being a thing that's possible in real life.

As such, it's impossible to completely stop people from drawing parallels between fiction and reality, and doing so wouldn't be really desireable anyway. Just be ready to point out to your players that they're wrong if they start seeing analogy and similarity in places where there is no such thing.

[Kaibis]

Any oppression will be similar to other cases of oppression, even if the involved parties are neither representative nor analogous of any real people.

Agreed. Talk to your players, are they uncomfortable about this world, or do you mean that they are unable to be polite about different races?

[Frozen_Feet]

An easier way to do this:

Show your players some major newspaper and ask if they read it.

If no, have them read it.

If yes, did they break down in tears?

If yes, they are too emotionally fragile to play a game with any sort of oppression, and would be better off watching reruns of My Little Pony.

If no, anything in the newspaper is fair game. Since on the average weekday, the news will involve disease, catastrophe, murder, war and genocide, you're good to go!

[jojo]

Honestly it's probably not so much "your world" that's "triggering" players as it is "the socio-political views which inform that world."

If you're intentionally highlighting tropes then you should expect jokes at the expense of your setting.

From reading your description however it sounds like the racial roles you've created are reductive to the extreme, which is intellectually offensive if nothing else.

[2D8HP]

Just don't do Bright

[Rhedyn]

Just don't do Bright

One of the best films of our time.

How many actual oppressed group do you know of that have bottomless pits to no where in their Church?

[S@tanicoaldo]

The undead is a great group, it’s like dealing with androids from Blade Runner, but instead of asking "What does it mean to be human?" ask: "What does it mean to be alive?" Should the undead get the same rights as the living?

I’m exploring some of these ideas on this (Shameless plug) thread here, if you want to help any insights are welcome. ^^

[Cosi]

So anyway, here's the deal... my industrialized world exists as such, having drawn upon the fictional stereotypes of fictional races.

The fictional stereotypes of fictional races are based on real stereotypes of real races. Things have histories and contexts, and you can't just ignore them by pretending they don't exist.

So I'm sure you can see that the players are always making jokes or getting triggered by the real world parallels here - none of which are intentional. Rather, they are the way that society would naturally shape itself (in my opinion) were these dynamics to exist in a fictional world.

Maybe the reason people are getting offended at the things you think are totally innocent is because those things are not in fact as innocent as you think they are? Your description of Gnomes is like two steps away from being the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. That's offensive, even if you don't mean it that way.

[Spiryt]

What you are describing had been happening time and time again.

When any kind of urban culture with sophisticated concepts of finances, civil law, contracts etc. was colliding with some 'simple' rural, herding people without such concepts.

So it will be hard to avoid 'real world parallels', you know.

Best thing is to do is to draw this fictional reality as well and tastefully as you can.

[Jormengand]

I'm going to say that it's practically impossible to talk about prejudice without parallels to other prejudices. Hells, in the real world I don't have the experience that people of colour do, but I can make some analogies from my own experiences of being in other minority groups. Some of those experiences don't even sound like they could have anything to do with racism until they're adequately explained, but I can probably draw a parallel between anyone's experiences of racism and one of my experiences of some other kind of discrimination. Sure, it might not be a strong parallel, but it will be there. With fantasy speciesism, it's even worse, because that's more analogous to racism than homophobia is, partly for the reasons that a lot of fantasy species were popularised via Tolkien's iterations as racist stereotypes.

[Nifft]

Exalted did a reasonably good job of making distinct cultures which were totally rip-offs of real-world cultures, but not offensively so. They did this by ripping off multiple cultures at once, and not giving the bad stereotypes of one real-world ethnicity to their fantasy analogue.


So, here's a few example ideas of how you could make your setting less potentially offensive:

- Perhaps City Orcs are monotheistic Aten-Ra worshipers; their evil Death Orc cousins keep bowing down to mummified lich-kings. City Orcs value literacy and are polite towards the priests of Sun Gods, but they prefer "worshiping an ideal" or Druidism over the local pantheon. This is one step towards making Orcs very clearly NOT an analogue for African-American people. They're plausibly discriminated against because they look different and believe different.

- Perhaps your Gnomes are somewhat like caste Hindus, in that they're raised from birth to fit into a rigid social role, and they have a different understanding of religion -- for example, they don't get daily cantrips as such: those effects are their prayers to the minor spirits and 10,000 gods who actually answer them. Unlike real-world Hindus, their Caste is determined by magical augury & astronomy observations at birth, so any child might be elevated to rulership within the Gnomes -- or might be discarded. This is one step towards making Gnomes very clearly NOT an analogue for Jewish people, and also NOT an analogue for real-world Hindu people.


-- -- --

Another direction might be to expand on your (IMHO excellent) ideas about Tieflings & Dragonborn.

This would be a setting where EVERYBODY WAS HUMAN, then stuff happened.

My suggestions:

- Tieflings are the result of taint or a curse. The curse could be by becoming a Warlock (as you posit), or it could be a familial curse, or it could be that you actually sinned in a significant way and you were marked. Or your grandfather once visited a tainted site. Perhaps they're discriminated against because some of them were legitimately bad people, plus they're funny looking.

- Dragonborn were chosen by dragons, or (taking a page from Arcana Evolved's Mojh race) they were the result of a self-inflicted arcane ritual. Maybe they're better Sorcerers, so if you fail out of Wizard College you might try drinking a dragon draught.


... then add more products of humanity & self-mutations:

- Shifters were a soldier prototype. Perhaps they're now discharged & discarded in favor of Half-Ogre research.

- Warforged were a competing solider prototype. Perhaps they're still in use.

- Kobolds were a failed project, attempting to create a variety of Dragonborn that bred true.

... etc.

[Kaibis]

Honestly it's probably not so much "your world" that's "triggering" players as it is "the socio-political views which inform that world."

If you're intentionally highlighting tropes then you should expect jokes at the expense of your setting.

From reading your description however it sounds like the racial roles you've created are reductive to the extreme, which is intellectually offensive if nothing else.

Some good points here.

Firstly, I agree about our socio-political views informing the world". I actually had no idea what things were being "hinted" at in your first post. I am guessing the OP is from the US? I am not. The OPs world building didn't trigger any stereotypes for me. My culture is different, we have our own stereotypes.

Agreed re the last part. Since you are concerned enough to ask these questions, it is worth your time to learn more about how stereotyping affects real world people. I am sure this will help you understand how to move forward in your world building.

[Segev]

I'd go ahead and let the players joke. Also, strive to rip off multiple examples of the historical culture clashes you're doing, here; the merger will muddy the water as to "which one" is being modeled, and playing with the specifics of your setting will shape it into its own thing. ...okay, "rip off" isn't the right term. Seek inspiration. Know how it's happened and why in other cultures and times, so you can adapt the reactions of groups appropriately to the specifics of your setting.

But let them joke. If they see parallels, let them. Strive not to have any "side" be "right" while the other is "wrong." Gnomes aren't all evil prats in a degenerate dictatorship that oppresses the noble and mistreated orcs. Orcs aren't horrific brutes who are barely trustworthy under guard not to murder innocent gnomes who are so wise and just that they would never harm a fly that didn't deserve it and are trying to uplift the poor savage undeserving creatures.

Instead, some people on both sides view the others and themselves in this light, while most are...people. People shaped by their experiences. The prejudices exist because of patterns of behavior where the cultures clash now or did in the past. Those who interact more regularly with those of a different race or culture (and remember, the difference between race and culture is important to draw!) will have those prejudices either reinforced or worn away, depending on the nature of those interactions.

[NichG]

Sounds like you're running Arcanum.

Alienness seems to help. I've never had a player get offended by parallels between say dragons, demons, or mind flayers and any human racial or social group. Though my players don't get offended so easily I think.

When it comes to human-like things, perhaps some frustration is in part seeing that those people could act differently but don't (e.g. they're being frozen in place by the DM making them fit the stereotype). So making causes more clear and addressable both by PCs and by groups within those cultures might help. Orcs being savages because the DM's setting calls for orcs to be savages is probably going to offend people, while orcs being savages because they're in starvation-survival mode with no spare resources for infrastructure or education while a technological civilization is pushing into their territory at least provides the outlet that there are in-game problems and villains to direct that feeling of offense towards.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'm personally not fond of global racial stereotypes or racial monocultures (including "here's the Dwarven Kingdom, there's the Human one, ..."). At the same time, I don't find value in subverting or inverting tropes just for the sake of bucking the trend.

I have savage orcs. I have orcs that aren't savage, but are a major valued part of one of the more orderly nations. I have goblins that are wild and crazy. I have goblins who are the master tinkers and craftsmen. I have jerk haughtier-than-thou high elves, and ... ok. Most high elves are jerks

I think a key to avoid the real-world comparisons is to portray oppressed/oppressing cultures and show why they act that way. And then show the same identity groups of other cultures working together. Basically, think of the groups as collections of individuals, not monolithic groups.

Another thing that helps me portray groups better is to know their place in the world. How they came to be, what their society is like, why they have the traits they do. Adding in little touches humanizes (for lack of a better word) both sides.

The very best session I've had was when circumstances and goals forced a group to work with some goblins. They spent a session helping the foragers, playing with the goblin kids, and generally helping out. And this was despite the fact that only one party member could effectively communicate with most of them. The racist snob of a high elf (played that way on purpose) lost a lot of his edge and bonded with the kids; the group found a purpose that drove them throughout the rest of the campaign. Mostly by accident--it certainly wasn't planned. I was ad-libbing the whole time because they had gone way off the rails.

[icefractal]

So I'm sure you can see that the players are always making jokes or getting triggered by the real world parallels here - none of which are intentional. Rather, they are the way that society would naturally shape itself (in my opinion) were these dynamics to exist in a fictional world.

Well there's the sticking point right there.

If I tell you to absolutely avoid thinking about pink elephants, can you do it?
If you play a mystery scenario already knowing the answer, can you completely ignore that and legitimately solve it?

Nobody's mind is a perfectly neutral uncontaminated environment (not that you'd want it to be, as that would mean knowing nothing), and nobody has perfect insight into and control over their mental processes. So when you talk about "the way that society would naturally shape itself", that thinking is inherently modified by all the information you've acquired during your life, which of course includes the attitudes and stereotypes of the society you live in. And that's going to be the case whether you intend it or not.

So am I recommending not to trust your own mind and generate everything randomly? Not at all, create away, in whatever way is interesting to you. Just don't assume the results are guaranteed to be flawless, and edit as necessary to get the effect you want.

And regarding intent - that only matters to a certain extent. If a chef serves anchovy chocolate cake, most people are going to find it gross regardless of whether it was the chef wanting to screw with people, or the chef sincerely believing that anchovies and chocolate are a great combination.

[Florian]

I realize this is going to be a risky topic but I'm not going to actually draw any real world parallels. Let's be mature and talk about the fictional & the interpersonal communication without actually talking about historical oppression.

I don't see how to avoid the real world parallels though. And to make it otherwise, I feel would be killing the character of the world.

You really can´t avoid real world parallels when you include certain topics into your game world.

It´s more a thing of how you do it and what impact your going for by doing it. By the descriptions you have given, you basically reduce race and culture down to some monolithic blocks that exemplify their own stereotypes, nothing more. All X are Y (and player characters are special snowflakes) is not really the best approach to handle more sensitive topics, neither is the approach to create "blocks" (maybe based on kingdoms, or guilds, such things) that are solely centered on one schtick.

Take an "evil kingdom" for example. Used to be part on something that was roughly modeled after ancient Rome and when that empire toppled, civil war broke out. In the "evil kingdom", the faction that had the support of the infernalists and devils made their push to power and stabilized the situation, becoming the new nobility and ruling caste of the kingdom, with the general population being more or less glad that the situation stabilized quickly after that. Now they slowly transformed the former system of indentured labor into true slavery (mind, never citizens, only "foreign savages" and the "weak" smaller races!) and made worship of the lords of hell into a state religion (mind, without banishing the old gods and their temples or forcing it on the citizens, it´s just so that families that send one of their children to cleric training to one of the infernal deities tend to rise up in social circles....).

So, what do we have? Yes, the upper echelons of the "evil kingdom" is a pretty corrupt and ruthless bunch, but that doesn´t translate to the common citizen, who will most likely never own a slave or sacrifice a life on an altar, with the common policemen simply upholding the law and doing duty by things like hunting down escaped slaves. Mustn´t even be cruel about it, or have a negative stance to the topics of infernalists and slavery, maybe even fully resent it, but it´s just the society they grew up in.