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Thread: Acid
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2007-08-29, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Acid
Atleast two of my players have mentioned getting through locks with acid, either in the form of acid vials or acid splash cantrip.
The idea strikes to me as somewhat odd as 1d6 Acid can't even pass hardness 5 most of the time, 1d3 never.
But to hear other opinions, have you as DMs allowed getting past doors with acid? What was the explanation for it, either game mechanical or roleplay-wise?
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2007-08-29, 10:57 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
It's never come up. But based on chem class, I'd rule it'd have to be pretty strong acid, otherwise it's just going to etch the edge (heh). Even then, it's possible that it simply ruins the lock, rendering it un-open-able.
Then again, I'm also the kind of DM that rules that, if you use spells to hunt rabbits for food, if the damage is an order of magnitude larger than the hit points of the poor critter, it gets splattered and there isn't much left that's edible.
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2007-08-29, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
If I remember correctly, Acid ignores the hardness of metal objects in DnD, so it should be possible.
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2007-08-29, 11:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
According to the SRD, acid and sonic attacks damage objects "just like they damage creatures". Doesn't mention bypassing hardness, but then creatures don't have hardness.
Comparison with other elements doesn't clear it up either - they all do reduced damage, and hardness is mentioned to make it clear when it's applied (it's after the reduction due to elemental type).
I'd have to say that hardness still applies, since acids could more easily burn a person's skin than significantly damage wood or stone. From a balance POV, you shouldn't be able to bypass Open Locks with those things.
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2007-08-29, 11:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
Hardness, I believe, only affects physical damage, as in, I whack it with my sword. Acid damage, just like fire, sonic, etc. is not reduced by hardness or damage reduction. When you think about it, though, any decent 1st level fighter can keep hitting a wooden door with his sword until it breaks, and at higher levels all it takes is an adamantine weapon to be able to break through almost anything.
Are you worried about them bypassing locks they shouldn't be able to? I think it's actually a creative way to get around a poor lock-picking skill or something like that. Just make them keep track of how many acid vials it actually takes to eat through the hp of the door or lock and remind them that they'll end up spending a decent bit of money on this after a while."Tell my tale to those who ask. Tell it truly; the ill deeds along with the good, and let me be judged accordingly. The rest... is silence."
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2007-08-29, 11:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-29, 11:14 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
The problem was that Fire damage is affected by hardness...
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.NOW COMPLETE: Let's Play Starcraft II Trilogy:
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2007-08-29, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
How about this scenario? There are three low level wizards, none of whom have knock or any ranks in open lock. One of the wizards is on the other side of a locked door and is being attacked by zombies. Would it be feasible for an Acid Splash spell to burn a hole in the door so that a hand could reach through and open the lock from the inside?
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2007-08-29, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
For that we'd have to turn to our good non-core friend, the Psion (Kineticist). He's got a series of powers (Energy Missile, Energy Cone, Energy Ball, Energy Current) which let him choose which type of energy fries the opponent. Every one of these powers has the energies described as follows:
Originally Posted by SRD
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2007-08-29, 11:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
I haven't had players try it, and it would work (or not work) depending on the lock in question. A cheap simple iron lock and a lot of acid, I would probably allow to work and let the expense and obviousness of the break-in be balancing factors. A suitably complex lock or a lock made of special materials, I would probably either make unaffected by the acid or cause the acid to damage the internal mechanisms and make the lock un-openable. You can burn your way through a cheap lock if you use enough acid, but expensive locks are expensive specifically because they're designed to foil such tactics.
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2007-08-29, 11:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
There's a couple terms used in security.
Fail safe and fail secure. Fail safe means that if the particular item fails, people can still get out. Fail secure means that if the particular item fails, the room remains locked up.
Melting a padlock would be fail safe... if the padlock (on the outside of a chest) is broken you can open it.
Melting a lock in a door would be fail secure. The bolt holding the door locked would not be accessible any more.
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2007-08-29, 12:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
the bit from the SRD suffers from inconsistent writing...i think the key phrase is "roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit". The question is which "normally" is it refering to, normal damage to creatures or normal damage to objects. It isn't clear, especially since it makes the incredibly stupid mistake of throwing that whole "deal damage to objects just as they do to creatures" line in there, though i would sumbit they do indeed mean damage normally with respect to objects (ie they don't ignore hardness). Personally i think the line is just a poor way of saying "Acid and sonic do full damage to objects (not half or quarter damage as other eneergy types do) just as they do to creatures but still follow normal object damaging rules." which is a pretty poor sentence to begin with. If Sonic and Acid ignored hardness i truly believe/hope they would have just said "Acid and sonic ignore hardness" since that isn't such a hard line to write or understand. They were trying to clarify that acid and sonic dealt full damage, and instead open up a whole realm of misunderstandings.
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2007-08-29, 01:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
Okay...
I think I will stick with my ruling that Acid doesn't make even a small hole in the door if it won't get past the hardness.
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2007-08-29, 04:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
I'd have to say that hardness still applies, since acids could more easily burn a person's skin than significantly damage wood or stone.
Real-world, I don't think it makes sense to apply hardness to acid damage. If I hit an inch-thick chunk of metal with a hammer, yeah, I'll have to hit it pretty hard to dent it. But if I apply acid to that same chunk of metal, I'm going to damage it no matter what. If it's only a little bit of acid, of course, it'll only do a little damage, but it does still do damage, unlike a light tap with that hammer.
As for sonic damage, in the real world it's actually more effective on harder objects. You can't shatter a feather pillow with a loud sound.
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2007-08-30, 02:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
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2007-08-30, 04:08 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
Stomach acid of a purple worm, it'll eat through anything
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2007-08-30, 04:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
My old Duskblade had a vial of acid in is boots of smuggling in case he was chucked in prison and needed to get through the lock. He also had a hacksaw blade without the handle in his boots.
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2007-08-30, 05:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-30, 05:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
Energy Attacks
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.
Vulnerability to Certain Attacks
Certain attacks are especially successful against some objects. In such cases, attacks deal double their normal damage and may ignore the object’s hardness.
I'd suggest that the PCs should be alloed to buy anti-metal acids, ecetre if they so wish, which will ignore hardness of the type they're "anti" but that bog-standard spell acid shouldn't have any advantage unless the wizard researchs a specific spell.
Stephen
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2007-08-30, 05:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-30, 07:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
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2007-08-30, 07:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
From the FAQ
Originally Posted by FAQ
EDIT: of course: if you want to reward this kind of player creativity, why notLast edited by Bender; 2007-08-30 at 07:52 AM.
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2007-08-30, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
OK here we go... relevant information about Hardness
Originally Posted by SRD
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2007-08-30, 08:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-30, 09:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
The two key quotes seem to be:
Originally Posted by SRDOriginally Posted by SRD
The second quote is where the problem lies, particularly the bit about dealing damage to objects as to creatures. However, since it doesn't specifically mention hardness, I'd say hardness still applies.
I'm also going to get extremely technical here, and argue that the second quote talks about dealing and applying damage, while the first talks about taking damage. You deal/apply damage normally to the object, but when it's the object's turn to take the damage you've dealt/applied, it gets to subtract its hardness.
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2007-08-30, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
Which is why I said
However, this is up to the DM.
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2007-08-30, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
So we've come up with "it's up to the DM", which is a bit of a non-answer really since everything is up to the DM. Harumph.
From a game balance POV I'm inclined to go with the specific acid for a task rule, since that stops them from becoming too powerful but still allows some efficacy in the right circumstances. Clearly, acids for harder, more common materials should cost more.
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2007-08-30, 09:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Acid
Just to throw more "key quotes" onto the fire (both far more explicit than the mass above):
Originally Posted by Main 3.5 FAQ, pg. 69
Originally Posted by Main 3.5 FAQ, pg. 93
As to specific acids: There exists Stonebreaker Acid which ignores the hardness of stone. This is from the Arms and Equpiment Guide. The final issue of Dragon (#359) also introduced similar acids for destroying wood and metal objects.Last edited by Shhalahr Windrider; 2007-08-30 at 09:56 AM.
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2007-08-30, 09:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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2007-08-30, 07:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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