Tomb Of Horrors

[vanyell]

I'm a relatively new DM, DMing for a group of newish players.

I have heard about the tomb of horrors module, and I would like to run it for them, as they tend to be a more thinking type group. do you have any suggestions, as to make the module as fun for them (and easier for me) as possible?

thanks in advance

[Attilargh]

Print a lot of spare character sheets and fill them in advance.

[Kurald Galain]

Newish players (and new DMs) should stay far, far away from the Tomb of Horrors. It is written for high-level characters, presupposes reasonable experience with the system, and is an absolute killer with a guesstimated PC death rate of 70%-100%

I'd suggest getting a dungeon module on level-3, or thereabouts. After you've played for several months and the PCs have leveled up many times, you might want to consider TOH.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Even I hesitated about running the Tomb of Horrors.

Then they sassed me.

3 TPKs.

[vanyell]

I have read it over, I know that there are going to be player deaths. I have already informed the players to make about 6 character sheets each, and I have suggested they use any splat book they can get their hands on.

as for being a new DM, I have played on the other side of the screen for quite a while now. I have DMed about 3 or 4 large scale modules, and during these modules, my players were usually unhappy about simple combat encounters. I thought the tomb would be good, with it's no random encounters, and reletivly few, powerful, monsters. it makes them think.

thanks,
any more advice is sill appreciated
van

[Ashtar]

Well, my memory of the tomb of horrors is that there is not that many monsters in it. It's more a genre DM vs Players with dirty stuff that will happen to them if they are not careful.
Some places are like: If the players do anything, they are screwed. In fact some of the best way to survive is to take no action, to stop and think and do nothing in precipitation.

Also, I must say, my group got a bit bored of it, we took something like three or four (maybe more my memory is fuzzy - wait more because there's the tower stuff after the tomb... ugh!) session to get through it, I think and by the end we were like... over with the tomb.

[Citizen Joe]

Thinking doesn't really help in Tomb of Horrors. Sheep help... sheep help alot.

I'd bet a small army of mining dwarves would also rule. Might be a bit slow, but you simply dig in where there isn't anthing and keep going until you hit an opening. Dire badgers might help with that too, assuming the tomb wasn't cut out of solid rock.

[Kurald Galain]

it makes them think.

Contrary to popular belief, the TOH does not making people think, because the traps and kills are so arbitrary and random that thinking about them doesn't actually help.

It's the D&D version of Paranoia.

[Saph]

Yeah. Tomb of Horrors advertises itself as a 'thinking player's module', but it really isn't. If you enter a room in the Tomb, think about if for a while, then take the course of action that seems reasonable, you'll probably die.

What it actually is is a 'coward's module'. The best way to survive is never to go into a single room yourself. Send in other PCs, followers, summoned monsters, NPCs, pets, animals, and anything else that's mobile and heavy enough to set traps off. Don't enter any room until your pawns have thoroughly swept it.

- Saph

[Zim]

Playing a creature with regeneration helps too. Imps make great PC's for this character killer. So do trolls. Other than that, you'll need a stack of characters.

Not a good adventure for characters that you're attached to or inexperienced gaming groups. Try Sunless Citadel or one of the new Gamemastery modules from Paizo; I hear they're fantastic!

[Ethdred]

I have read it over, I know that there are going to be player deaths. I have already informed the players to make about 6 character sheets each, and I have suggested they use any splat book they can get their hands on.

as for being a new DM, I have played on the other side of the screen for quite a while now. I have DMed about 3 or 4 large scale modules, and during these modules, my players were usually unhappy about simple combat encounters. I thought the tomb would be good, with it's no random encounters, and reletivly few, powerful, monsters. it makes them think.

thanks,
any more advice is sill appreciated
van

Yeah, don't run the module. It's rubbish, except for a one off for some really experienced and possibly even jaded players who will appreciate the fact it's so different without complaining about how rubbish it is. And will have enough sheep. And even then TOH is the only problem that sacrificing minions can't (completely) solve

[Darrin]

I'm a relatively new DM, DMing for a group of newish players.

I have heard about the tomb of horrors module, and I would like to run it for them, as they tend to be a more thinking type group. do you have any suggestions, as to make the module as fun for them (and easier for me) as possible?

thanks in advance

Wizards updated the original module to 3.5 and it's available as a free download on their site:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20051031a

It was supposed to coincide with the release of Libris Mortis, and includes some updated monsters that I think only appear in Libris Mortis. However, I think it should run just fine without the Libris Mortis material, although purists may bemoan certain encounters have been reworked.

Something I thought was odd was the recommended levels were scaled back to 9th. When I ran the original un-updated version with 3.5 characters, I stuck with the 10-14 levels suggested on the cover. Given how unforgiving the module can be, I do think the recommended average level, even with 3.5 rules, is in the 12ish rather than 9ish range.

As far as suggestions... every player will need a handful of ready-to-play characters. Let them know beforehand that instant death will be unapologetically arbitrary. Give out prizes for most interesting death, fewest deaths, highest deaths, etc.

What surprised me most was my players figured out an extremely clever way to destroy the demilich using his own artifacts. Just brilliant. I'm still puzzled why Gygax didn't think of it himself.

The worst part of the module by far, though, is being forced to read Gygax's poetry... ugh, Vogons wouldn't touch it.

[Lapak]

Contrary to popular belief, the TOH does not making people think, because the traps and kills are so arbitrary and random that thinking about them doesn't actually help.

It's the D&D version of Paranoia.

It is decidedly not a thinking player's adventure. It is a thinking villain's adventure - a villain who understands how adventurers work. It is full of false clues that are just difficult enough to work out to lull people into a false sense of security about acting on them, no actual clues that allow for safe navigation of the Tomb, and situations where a minor mistake cannot be taken back and leads to immediate death.

Honestly, in an actual world that had ancient evil liches and adventurers in it, I'd expect more adventures to be like the Tomb of Horrors than otherwise, but that wouldn't be much fun at all. Yet again, 'realism' isn't worth it.

[fireinthedust]

I remember reading it and thinking the coolest parts had been written by Bruce Cordell in Return to the Tomb. The original module is just something that seems thrown together. The re-make was great: a city of necromancers on the surface, (the not-so great Gygax original), then a demiplane city of Moil sticking out of killer mists with the monsters, etc., un-living in crumbling towers... that was way cool. Libris Mortis saw him re-make his new critters for 3.5. tres-cool.

I played n64's Legend of Zelda the other day. That style of game would be cool for a module: puzzles you solve in a Zelda-style dungeon. There was a free-download off the Necromancer Games' website that I thought was cool, and it was kinda like that.

[Harold]

ohh my group played that quest and in 10 minutes two people died so as Attilargh said make extra characters it is the toughest quest I've ever played. if your lucky only 3 people will die.

[Matthew]

Here are some links to previous Threads on the subject.

Anubis1179 and the Tomb of Horros
JMalone and the Tomb of Horrors
ExhunterEmerald and the Tomb of Horrors
Krimm Blackleaf and the Tomb of Horrors
RobbieOC and the Tomb of Horrors
Don Beegles and the Tomb of Horrors
Aenerb and the Tomb of Horrors

It is not for everyone, but that doesn't mean it is a bad Adventure Module.

[Citizen Joe]

I just read through the 3.5 update. I must say that a pack of dire badgers and the mining dwarves and some archaeologists would make for an interesting run on it. Just imagine prying up flagstones and murals, packing them up and shipping them off to a museum or to various collectors. Then finding all the poisoned spikes and harvesting those as well.

I also think that the ending can be quite different if it were set in Eberron and a powerful warforged got in there first.... there are certain traps that would backfire HORRIBLY with a warforged.

[Grug]

unfortunately, digging won't work.

There are bound demons that roam the halls and repair everything constantly. Anyone who tries to dig their way in gets a face full of Full Attack. Not to mention a single cloudkill from the final boss would kill all of them.

[Citizen Joe]

Spoiler that... just in case.

Spoiler

Show

they don't 'Roam' the halls but they do fix things up when you leave. However, I'm talking about digging in from above. Until you actually poke through the ceiling or come through the masonry wall, its no big deal. They don't like you coming in ethereally though.

On the other hand. I think 2nd edition declared that a city or something was built on top. Those guys might be perturbed if you start digging into their sacred shrine.

Spoiler

Show

Another spoiler would be to take a step into the place and do Commune with Nature. Find the nastiest unnatural thing (the demilich). Using that information direct your summoned thoqqua to burrow right into the heart (even through stone). Drop in a sunrod and a spy bird (owl). When it reports back, just have the thoqqua drop a one ton block of stone on the skull.
Resources:
Druid level 9
1 Commune with nature spell (Drd 5)
1 Summon Nature's ally IV (Drd 4) 2 thoqqua
1 sunrod (1 gp)
1 Summon Nature's ally I (Drd 1) 1 owl
1 speak with animals (Drd 1)

All done... half hour's work for one druid level 9 Plus 1gp sunrod (not entirely necessary since owls have low light vision).

[martyboy74]

This is something that has been running around sigs for a while:

Sample ToH Encounter EL "9" (bull).

Player 1: "I inhale... There isn't a trap on the air, right?"
DM: "Wrong, make a fortitude save vs. poison. Is it a natural 20? Too bad."
Player 2: "Gahh! I hold my breath and cast remove poison on Player 1!"
DM: "Devil Monkeys fly out of the rear end of the statue in the center of the room and counterspell your remove poison using advanced laser technology. Also you turn into a flounder."
Player 2: "What the f-"
DM: "And explode."

[Premier]

Spoiler that... just in case.

Spoiler

Show

Another spoiler would be to take a step into the place and do Commune with Nature. Find the nastiest unnatural thing (the demilich). Using that information direct your summoned thoqqua to burrow right into the heart (even through stone). Drop in a sunrod and a spy bird (owl). When it reports back, just have the thoqqua drop a one ton block of stone on the skull.
Resources:
Druid level 9
1 Commune with nature spell (Drd 5)
1 Summon Nature's ally IV (Drd 4) 2 thoqqua
1 sunrod (1 gp)
1 Summon Nature's ally I (Drd 1) 1 owl
1 speak with animals (Drd 1)

All done... half hour's work for one druid level 9 Plus 1gp sunrod (not entirely necessary since owls have low light vision).

Plan wouldn't work for a number of reasons:

Spoiler

Show

- Acererak's resting place is encased in mithril, and the Thoqqua description on the SRD says nothing about digging through that. The Thoqqua doesn't have the key needed to open the crypt, and even if it did, it's irrealistic to suppose that it would be able to figure out how to open the crypt properly on its own. But even if it did somehow, it would still probably get crushed by the rising vault.
- Thoqqua description says nothing about the ability to chuck around 1 ton blocks of stone. A STR of 15 isn't quite enough to do that.
- However, the Thoqqua's messing around WILL awaken Acererak. With no PC guidance (or even with PC guidance, if the PCs haven't fought demiliches before), the Thoqqua wouldn't even recognise the actual demilich, and would keep pounding away ineffectually at the dust form while Acererak Death Ray-s and Trap The Soul-s it dead.

[Citizen Joe]

Plan wouldn't work for a number of reasons:

Spoiler

Show

- Acererak's resting place is encased in mithril, and the Thoqqua description on the SRD says nothing about digging through that. The Thoqqua doesn't have the key needed to open the crypt, and even if it did, it's irrealistic to suppose that it would be able to figure out how to open the crypt properly on its own. But even if it did somehow, it would still probably get crushed by the rising vault.
- Thoqqua description says nothing about the ability to chuck around 1 ton blocks of stone. A STR of 15 isn't quite enough to do that.
- However, the Thoqqua's messing around WILL awaken Acererak. With no PC guidance (or even with PC guidance, if the PCs haven't fought demiliches before), the Thoqqua wouldn't even recognise the actual demilich, and would keep pounding away ineffectually at the dust form while Acererak Death Ray-s and Trap The Soul-s it dead.

Actually it wouldn't work, but not for those reasons

Spoiler

Show

Thoqqua burrow by melting through stuff. They are denizens of the elemental plane of fire. Mithral isn't unobtainium, it is an alloy. Alloys are made by melting together multiple types of metal. Apply heat and it will melt.

The 1 ton block of stone I'm referring to is made when the thoqqua burrow all around the supporting ceiling causing it to collapse.

The thoqqua wouldn't touch anything in the tomb so the trigger wouldn't be fired awakening the demilich (and ghost... there's two creatures in there btw). Even if it did, the thoqqua is a summoned dismissable creature (I'm not entirely sure if it has a soul) but its death is kinda meaningless.

The reason it wouldn't work is the time needed to carefully weaken the ceiling. The thoqqua are around for 9 rounds. Probably two rounds are needed to burrow down. A couple more rounds for inspection and then they can start mining. They make holes 1 foot in diameter and up to 40' long per round, thus not enough time to properly undercut the ceiling.

Also the tomb itself rises up from the floor, which means there is space above it. The thoqqua would have burrowed into that space and the spy bird would have found nothing.

Assuming they figured out that they really needed to go deeper, the configuration of the ceiling (peaked), combined with the 'roof' being relatively thin means that you're not going to be able to drop a concentrated 1 ton block. It will be deflected and no way of guaranteeing a hit on the skull.

Instead we'll just stuff a rust monster into the hole to eat the entire vault

[Evil DM Mark3]

the only reason to run TOH is the nostalga value. The thing is famous.

[DraPrime]

Do make sure that your players won't be pissed of with the massive amounts of dead characters. It's really fun to be done with the ****ing thing, but they just might stab you for killing a bunch of characters.

[Jade_Tarem]

This is something that has been running around sigs for a while:

Qwaahh? That's MY quote! No one thought it was funny at the time...

[martyboy74]

Qwaahh? That's MY quote! No one thought it was funny at the time...

Really? You summed up ToH pretty well.

[Swordguy]

This is something that has been running around sigs for a while:

Curse you! I came here to make that quote! I didn't say it anyway. Someone else did, and I quoted them in the ExHunterEmerald v tOH thread. Evidently, people are attributing it to me. I suppose I should read through threads more regularly, as I would have seen it and been able to correct them.

EDIT: After reading the whole thread, it was evidently Jade_Tarem. Now you know. That's half the battle.

Very well, if I can't quote that, I'll quote something I DID say when giving an example of the style of trap found in ToH:

In the Lankhmar Campaign setting, there is a particular adventure, in which you have to penetrate a tomb filled with nasty traps to get at a dead spellcaster and master trapsmith's loot.

The trap in question is a 100' long, 10' wide hallway, with an indentation in the floor exactly halfway through. There is nothing to differentiate this hallway from any other hallway in the complex, except for the indentation. A Detect Life spell with a 5' radius was cast on this indentation. This is the trap trigger. If life is detected in this area, the trap goes off, with the following effect:

Take your hands and place them (with the thumb and forefinger at a 90-degree angle) right over left, so the 2 right angles form a square (thumbtip to thumbtip, and the thumbtips should meet in the lower left corner of the square). This is the cross-section of the corridor. Now, slide your right hand over your left hand, and rotate the square 90 degrees to the left (so your thumbtips would be on the lower right corner), and bring the webbing of your thumbs together in the center while you do.

This is the action of the corridor. Anything inside the corridor is squeezed out the ends in a liquid mess with no saving throw (no damage rating, you're just dead) unless you're 5' from the ends - in which case you would make a Dex check (REF save now) to jump back or have a body part lopped off by the closing action.

Have fun!

Death is pointless and arbitrary in the ToH. Make sure your PCs know that. ALSO make sure they know that many of the cliche's gamers try to avoid today are actually GOOD in the ToH, because that's what started them into being a cliche in the first place.

[Starbuck_II]

Contrary to popular belief, the TOH does not making people think, because the traps and kills are so arbitrary and random that thinking about them doesn't actually help.

It's the D&D version of Paranoia.

"The Computer thinks you should open that door, citizen".
*Opens door*
"The computer changes its mind, opening that door shall get you punished."

Repeat ad nauseum. really, the Tomb is damned if you do: double damned if you don't.

[Citizen Joe]

OK cheap way to beat ToH.

Spoiler

Show

1. fall into the first pit and survive. Climb out and lock pit open.
2. Wait for demon to come along to reset all traps.
3. Capture demon and use mind reading techniques to find out where all the traps are and how they work. Or at least how to reset them (use deduction to figure out how to avoid them.)
4. Avoid traps.

The demons that reset the traps need to know where the traps are in order to reset them.

[daggaz]

[QUOTE=Swordguy;3126681] Now you know. That's half the battle.QUOTE]

Heh, the other half was always violence, at least according to GI-Joe.