eating summoned animals

[de-trick]

Im playing a good half-vampire and i thought to take children of the night and suck there blood to feed, but my DM says it is a evil act to summon a animal just to kill it and drink it's blood, I'd said it sure is better than drinking the blood of a humanoid in the city

what do you the people think

[Fhaolan]

Well... morally it's really not that much different from a very efficient hunting technique.

However, that said, I'm not sure it would work for technical reasons. I'm not that familiar with the exact text of the 'Children of the Night' ability. Is this a summon, as in the creature just *poofs* right next to you, or is supposed to draw them from the nearby terrain? If it's a *poof* thing, usually the creature *poofs* back once the timer runs out. And usually it's ruled that all the creature's bits go *poof* away, even the blood no longer in the creature...

[TheOOB]

Two points of interest, if a summoned creature dies, it goes back to it's home plane and reforms, so that make it difficult to feed.

Second point, when the summon duration ends, the creature in it's entirely, even any spells it has cast, disappear, thus it would be impossible to get any substance from them for more then a minute or two, as their flesh/blood would disappear from your system when the creature does. Not fun.

Beings summoned creatures are there to be summoned and die with no ill effects to the creature, I doubt it would be especially evil. In fact, the way summon spells work it seems more like you are instantiating the platonic form of the creature rather then actually calling a real creature to aid you.

[de-trick]

vampire special ablity

[Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. (If the base creature is not terrestrial, this power might summon other creatures of similar power.) These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.

from SRD

[Jarlax]

vampire special ablity

from SRD

ok, so its not an evil act, they are mindless animals and you are feeding on them so it would be no different that summoning them and cooking them.

and since your calling them not summoning them the blood with remain with you even after the duration of the call.

[Jasdoif]

This thread makes me think having something like one of those bloodbag imps from Fiend Folio would be nice for any vampire or similar creature. You'd need to alter the mechanics a bit, but they exist for other creatures to drink their blood (for hit point healing); wouldn't be much of a stretch to adapt the blood thing for a vampire. Their alignment might pose other problems though.

[TheOOB]

It's debatable if that ability is summoning or calling. I would disallow it simply because I belive vampires should hunt for their food.

[tannish2]

yes. drinking the blood of an animal is evil, so is shooting it, cooking it, and eating it meduim rare. all animals eaten must be cooked well done, especially if you want to keep that good alignment

only the BBEG eats his food meduim or rarer, doesnt anyone know these things?

and its a calling effect not summoning so.... ya they are there. they take 2d6 to arrive if no such creatures around beings of similar power might come and they SERVE you for an hour, they dont poof, they just stop obeying your commands and disregard any that you gave them, acting normally for the situation.

[Stephen_E]

I'd have to say killing animals you've summoned by magic is in the morally dubious area.

Hunting something gives it the chance to escape.
If you call something you're using a link to make them turn up. No choice or chance to avoid involved. Proceeding to eat them just because it's convient is definitely non-good in my book.

Stephen

[lord_khaine]

why not just chase down a few dogs and eat them instead?

[Ashtar]

Can't you find a willing blood donor? Take leadership and have a priestess of loviatar (or a if you can find a good aligned god of suffering, even better, Ilmater?) follow you around, being a willing donor and healing herself up afterwards...

[goat]

Really, you need a blood elemental in a bottle.

[SpikeFightwicky]

Why do you have to kill the animals? Blood Drain drains 1d4 Con at a time, so why not 'take a bite' out of each of the summoned wolves? That way you get 3d6 x 1d4 Con points of blood drain every time you summon (more than enough. You don't even have to feed on all of them), and 1d4 Con damage on a few wolves in a pack won't be devastating.

[Zim]

Will a ring of sustenance work? Just cut out the need to feed altogether.

[Dausuul]

I'd have to say killing animals you've summoned by magic is in the morally dubious area.

Hunting something gives it the chance to escape.
If you call something you're using a link to make them turn up. No choice or chance to avoid involved. Proceeding to eat them just because it's convient is definitely non-good in my book.

Stephen

Soo... does that mean that if you have an animal in a pen from which it cannot escape, and you go into the pen, slaughter it, butcher it, and eat the meat, that makes you evil?

Awful lot of evil pig farmers out there, then.

It's certainly not a good act, but I wouldn't call it evil when dealing with a creature of animal intelligence.

[Kaerou]

I guess the local farmers are also evil then.

After all, they're breeding animals in captivity with no chance to escape, only to be killed and eaten when they're nice and plump.

Those evil farmers..!

[Stephen_E]

Quote:Originally Posted by Stephen_E
I'd have to say killing animals you've summoned by magic is in the morally dubious area.

Hunting something gives it the chance to escape.
If you call something you're using a link to make them turn up. No choice or chance to avoid involved. Proceeding to eat them just because it's convient is definitely non-good in my book.

Stephen
Soo... does that mean that if you have an animal in a pen from which it cannot escape, and you go into the pen, slaughter it, butcher it, and eat the meat, that makes you evil?

Awful lot of evil pig farmers out there, then.

It's certainly not a good act, but I wouldn't call it evil when dealing with a creature of animal intelligence.

Can you point to where I used the word "evil"?
I said non-good. That leaves neutral and evil.
Does no one remember that the alignment system has THREE categories on each axis.

Re: killing animals you've raised for food. If you've raised it for food that is fair enough IMO (although there are people who'd disagree). I'd consider it a neutral act that can be moved to good or evil based on how you treat the animals as you raise them. And in case you think I'm been holier-than-thou, I'll mention that I have killed my mothers roosters for her and eaten them.

Stephen

[goat]

Well, I'd consider eating a summoned creature evil once you start eating summoned fiendish and celestial things or anything else with a humanoid Intelligence score...

[Citizen Joe]

First, it is a calling...

[Children of the Night (Su): Vampires command the lesser creatures of the world and once per day can call forth 1d6+1 rat swarms, 1d4+1 bat swarms, or a pack of 3d6 wolves as a standard action. ...These creatures arrive in 2d6 rounds and serve the vampire for up to 1 hour.

Note that it doesn't say they leave after an hour, only serve.

Second, why do you need to feed on blood? I know that there is a fluff reason to do so, but I don't think there is a mechanic to it.

Third, precedent in movies include 'good' vampires subsisting on rats. Angel from BtVS and I think Lestat in Interview with the Vampire (although he's not actually good).

Lastly, if you're playing a half-vampire, I don't think YOU nor your dm are going to be sticklers on alignment.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Will a ring of sustenance work? Just cut out the need to feed altogether.

I don't think those are enough to sustain abominations against all life.

[UglyPanda]

Strangely, there are almost no food rules in the PHB or DMG, nor is there a requirement for vampires to feed on blood other than fluff. What I can see is that vampires don't have to drain something to death to feed, and the ability damage isn't permanent. Most likely you can bribe the party member with the most CON to let you feed on him, then pay the party cleric to cast restoration on him/her. This will get expensive over time, so you should see how much combat your DM gives you compared to how often he makes you feed.

[Mewtarthio]

He's not playing a vampire. He's playing a half-vampire. They have to make Fort saves to avoid fatigue and exhaustion if they don't feed.

That is, if they even have the blood drain ability. They gain one and only one special ability: Either Charm Gaze or Children of the Night or Blood Drain. If and only if you have the Blood Drain special ability, you must drain at least 1 Con per day or risk fatigue. Thus, if you need to feed, you can't call your meals anyway; conversely, if you can call animals to you, you won't need to worry about eating them.

It's probably moot, anyway: You only have to drain a victim once to satisfy your hunger, and nobody dies from 1d4 Con damage save frail people on the verge of death. It's more of a fluff downside than anything actually painful: You don't have to do much more than mildly inconvenience anyone to satisfy your needs, so the only problem is finding someone who doesn't mind if you have some blood.

((Re: Summoning vs Calling: If anything, I'd label "Children of the Night" to be an Enchantment effect. The delay between activating the ability and acquiring your animal servants implies that the bats, rats, and wolves are already wandering around the countryside, and you're just gathering them to you and forcing them to serve you.))

[Nerd-o-rama]

I don't think those are enough to sustain abominations against all life.

Works for the illithid PC in a game I play, and those are abominations against all life and reason. But it's a DM ruling thing.

Also, as a half-vamp, you have to get blood from somewhere (apparently). What's your DM expect you to do? Chow down on party girls like a normal vampire? Re-roll a character? How're you going to get by except by drinking from animals? As mentioned before, you don't even have to kill them.

If it's the fact that you're enchanting the animals to come to you and then eating them...well, Children of the Night really just calls critters from the surrounding area. At worst, you're cheating at hunting.

[Jayabalard]

I'd have to say killing animals you've summoned by magic is in the morally dubious area.

Hunting something gives it the chance to escape.
If you call something you're using a link to make them turn up. No choice or chance to avoid involved. Proceeding to eat them just because it's convient is definitely non-good in my book.

Stephen

Soo... does that mean that if you have an animal in a pen from which it cannot escape, and you go into the pen, slaughter it, butcher it, and eat the meat, that morally dubious?

Awful lot of morally dubious pig farmers out there, then.

[UglyPanda]

According to Crystal Keep, Mewtarthio is right. Half-vampires who can use call of the night don't need to drink blood, and those that do can't use call of the night.

This is assuming you're using the Libris Mortis half-vampire and not a different version.

[Jayabalard]

They gain one and only one special ability: Either Charm Gaze or Children of the Night or Blood Drain. If and only if you have the Blood Drain special ability, you must drain at least 1 Con per day or risk fatigue. Thus, if you need to feed, you can't call your meals anyway; conversely, if you can call animals to you, you won't need to worry about eating them.

unless someone is using a homebrew half vampire with multiple abilities.

[tannish2]

I'd have to say killing animals you've summoned by magic is in the morally dubious area.

Hunting something gives it the chance to escape.
If you call something you're using a link to make them turn up. No choice or chance to avoid involved. Proceeding to eat them just because it's convient is definitely non-good in my book.

Stephen

your right, so is putting them in a farm, or hunting them with 9th level spells, or hunting them with a state of the art sniper rifle w/ laser scope.

paladin/druids must destroy the farmers!

[de-trick]

i would get a ring of sustenance, but if we get to choose a magic item i would definitely think about getting one

we got drinking blood from Fang and blood, i also don't have to eat, sleep, or drink besides blood of course

[Stephen_E]

Soo... does that mean that if you have an animal in a pen from which it cannot escape, and you go into the pen, slaughter it, butcher it, and eat the meat, that morally dubious?

Awful lot of morally dubious pig farmers out there, then.

When you look how many pig farms are run, yes. Even moreso if you look at poultry farms.

Humour aside, the basic point centres on the concept that you can shackle a man's body, but his spirrit/soul is still his own. Magical domination effects remove free will, which is a vastly greater crime than any physical restraint/injury.

In RL it's a somewhat theorectical view, but in a world of magic it is eminiently real.
Even with the creature restrained it can try to struggle if it wishes, no matter how boxed in. Binding it's spirit so that it will go smiling to it's death if you will it, is by most considerations/definitions of the importance of free will, a vastly greater crime.

The 2nd book of The Deeds of Paksennarion touches on this.

Stephen

[de-trick]

wow deep stuff from the anti drink blood from called creatures movement
Stephen, wouldn't most charm or dominate be non-good than


also lets say i wasn't a half-vampire but still had creatures of the night, could I eat them like a normal animal

I see it as non-evil or bad at all sure, I drink blood but the animal can still live, better than kill a deer and mutilating the deers corpse to eat its flesh, like a normal hunter