Fighter vs. Mage: My friend thinks fighter would win

[purplearcanist]

In a high level fighter vs. mage(wizard) fight, who would win?

I think the wizard would, but my friend claims the fighter would disrupt the mage's spellcasting. When I said that the mage could cast spells beforehand, he said no.

So my question is this. How could the mage, without having any spell effects precasted on themselves, have a 100% chance to beat the fighter?

[Thinker]

What books are you using?

[SadisticFishing]

C'est impossible. With no spells on him already at all, if the fighter goes first and can kill him in a round (which any real fighter can do), the fight is over.

[Thinker]

C'est impossible. With no spells on him already at all, if the fighter goes first and can kill him in a round (which any real fighter can do), the fight is over.

Its still very likely that the arcanist can go first, even without any spells cast already. Depending on stat distribution and racial selection the arcanist really only needs a 19 intelligence and then pump dexterity. Enervation will win this fight.

[Drider]

if wizard wins initiative, fly, then wind wall, then win.

[SadisticFishing]

The fighter has enough feats for Improved Initiative, and if the Wizard only has 19 int, he's rather gimp. Not enough spells per day, bad save DC on the spells...

[SadisticFishing]

if wizard wins initiative, fly, then wind wall, then win.

That's not 100%, though I do agree that if the Wizard wins initiative he wins for sure.

Forcecage rawr

Otto's Irresistable Dance, against the Fighter's flat footed touch AC.

Yeah.

[Thinker]

The fighter has enough feats for Improved Initiative, and if the Wizard only has 19 int, he's rather gimp. Not enough spells per day, bad save DC on the spells...

He doesn't need to use spells that allow a save to defeat the fighter.

[SadisticFishing]

He doesn't need to use spells that allow a save to defeat the fighter.

True, but if you're building characters only for this, the fighter would win as he can take Improved Initiative, Quick Reconnoiter (sp), and any number of other feats that add to your initiative.

[martyboy74]

Celerity means you always win initiative (Moment of Precisence argueably can also pull this off), unless you're surprised, which is nowhere near fair. Teleport means you can just come back later, with the right spells. Time Stop means that you get at least one extra, non-stunned round. Chain Dispel Magic and Chain Shatter mean that the fighter has no magic items. Cloudkill and (if evocation is banned, Greater Shadow Evocation) Forcecage means that they're trapped in the cloudkill for 20 minutes (200 rounds). Even if they make their save every single time, and they always roll minimum damage, that's 100 constitution damage. They're dead.

Note: See Emperor Tippy for the master of this arguement.

[purplearcanist]

For books, you can use stuff outside of core, but the greatest challenge is core-only.

[SadisticFishing]

Celerity means you always win initiative (Moment of Precisence argueably can also pull this off), unless you're surprised, which is nowhere near fair. Teleport means you can just come back later, with the right spells. Time Stop means that you get at least one extra, non-stunned round. Chain Dispel Magic and Chain Shatter mean that the fighter has no magic items. Cloudkill and (if evocation is banned, Greater Shadow Evocation) Forcecage means that they're trapped in the cloudkill for 20 minutes (200 rounds). Even if they make their save every single time, and they always roll minimum damage, that's 100 constitution damage. They're dead.

Note: See Emperor Tippy for the master of this arguement.

Heh, read the post - no spells beforehand, so if the fighter wins iniative, you're surprised and you lose (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is a lot of death)

[purplearcanist]

So basically, it comes down to who wins inititive.

[Jasdoif]

When I said that the mage could cast spells beforehand, he said no.

Does that mean the fighter isn't allowed to have any equipment beforehand, either?

[SadisticFishing]

So basically, it comes down to who wins inititive.

Yeppers. Sad thing is, even if the fighter wins initiative, he might miss and lose anyways.

[Swordguy]

With no spells beforehand, you're not getting a "fair" test. As much as I HATE arcane spellcasters and all that stems from them, it's intentionally biasing the test heavily in favor of the fighter. A major portion of the caster's strength come from their ability to prepare of a specific encounter, which includes casting buffs on themselves beforehand.

[SadisticFishing]

Does that mean the fighter isn't allowed to have any equipment beforehand, either?

Lack of equipment helps the fighter more than it hurts him, as it lowers the Mage's AC and life significantly while only giving him -11 str, so -5 hit and -7 damage. Oh no.

[Hannes]

Depends, actually. If the fighter hates all forms of magic, he just gets a ring of anti-magic field(20 ft) and runs in on the spellcaster!

[Reel On, Love]

In a high level fighter vs. mage(wizard) fight, who would win?

I think the wizard would, but my friend claims the fighter would disrupt the mage's spellcasting. When I said that the mage could cast spells beforehand, he said no.

Point out that many spells--for example, Overland Flight, last for HOURS--20 to 22 at level 20. Point out that with (rods of) Extend Spell, these last almost TWO days.
Point out Rope Trick and Magnificent Mansion.
Now, ask just how a Fighter is going to find a high-level mage without any spells up, when high-level mages always have spells up.

So my question is this. How could the mage, without having any spell effects precasted on themselves, have a 100% chance to beat the fighter?

Craft Contingent Spell, Complete Arcane.
Or taking Divine Oracle to 10 and using an immediate-action spell or ability, like Celerity or the PHB II Conjurer Immediate Magic ability.

[Weezer]

Heh, read the post - no spells beforehand, so if the fighter wins iniative, you're surprised and you lose (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is a lot of death)

Heh, know what your talking about, Celerity (PHB II) is cast as an immediate action and gives you an immediate standard action in return for being dazed for a few rounds. If you don't know what that means, immediate actions are actions that can be taken on other peoples turns as long as it isn't a surprise round.

So the wizard casts Celerity, then casts Time Stop, which gives him at least one round of unstunned action which he uses to forcecage then cloudkill.

Bam, fighter gone.

[Hallavast]

Celerity means you always win initiative (Moment of Precisence argueably can also pull this off), unless you're surprised, which is nowhere near fair. Teleport means you can just come back later, with the right spells. Time Stop means that you get at least one extra, non-stunned round. Chain Dispel Magic and Chain Shatter mean that the fighter has no magic items. Cloudkill and (if evocation is banned, Greater Shadow Evocation) Forcecage means that they're trapped in the cloudkill for 20 minutes (200 rounds). Even if they make their save every single time, and they always roll minimum damage, that's 100 constitution damage. They're dead.

Note: See Emperor Tippy for the master of this arguement.

Can you cast immediate action spells when flat footed? And if the fight happens before 13th level, what can the wizard really do with his celerity? And if the wizard "can" do this, does he have all the right spells memorized?

I expect there will be a reference to the "master list of spells" that "all smart wizards should have" (which i don't think really exists).

But with all that being said, I still think the odds are stacked in the wizard's favor. Maybe not 100% of the time (unless you're a "smart",aka paranoid, wizard and you never set foot anywhere ulnless you've spent half your life scrying the place, and you don't have any attatchments to the outside world and don't take any chances ever, as Tippy will no doubt tell you all "smart" wizards should be).

[martyboy74]

Heh, read the post - no spells beforehand, so if the fighter wins iniative, you're surprised and you lose (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is a lot of death)

Presumably you're aware of the fighter, and that means that you're not surprised. If you're rolling initiative, then you're not surprised. If you aren't aware, that means that the fighter just ambushed to wizard. Don't even go there.

Can you cast immediate action spells when flat footed? And if the fight happens before 13th level, what can the wizard really do with his celerity? And if the wizard "can" do this, does he have all the right spells memorized?

I expect there will be a reference to the "master list of spells" that "all smart wizards should have" (which i don't think really exists).

But with all that being said, I still think the odds are stacked in the wizard's favor. Maybe not 100% of the time (unless you're a "smart",aka paranoid, wizard and you never set foot anywhere ulnless you've spent half your life scrying the place, and you don't have any attatchments to the outside world and don't take any chances ever, as Tippy will no doubt tell you all "smart" wizards should be).

• If the fight happens brfore 13th level, that's not high level in my book. 12th is still medium level.
• Teleport lets you teleport away and prepare all your spells. Scrying lets you find the fighter, then you Teleport in and begin the ownage.
• There is a quite comprehensive guide to 'being batman' on these very boards.
• You don't need to Scry everything (although that helps). Foresight lets you know when something bad's about to happen, and Celerity let's you get out before it happens to you.

EDIT: \/\/ I forgot about that part. My bad.

[SadisticFishing]

I do in fact know what I am talking about, you can't take Immediate Actions when flat footed.

Divine Oracle also doesn't prevent Flat-footedness, just losing your dex bonus when flatfooted.

Only Foresight actually negates the flat-footed condition, and he's not allowed to have it up already.

[SadisticFishing]

Presumably you're aware of the fighter, and that means that you're not surprised. If you're rolling initiative, then you're not surprised. Even if the fighter starts out right next to you, you 5' step out of his reach, and lay down the ownage.

Doesn't matter. You haven't acted in combat yet. Flat footed, yay.

[Zincorium]

Disrupting the wizard's spells can only be done if the player of the wizard doesn't know what they're doing.

Defensive casting is incredibly easy for spellcasters at high levels. A 9th level spell is only DC 24, a 20th level caster literally cannot fail unless they have a negative constitution (which is a stupid idea for a caster anyway). They don't provoke an attack of opportunity when casting.

Well, guess what. That means, even if the fighter wins, he needs to do enough damage on that one charge to kill the mage outright. Because the mage will spellcast him into uselessness with one round.

With an 18 con (12 base, +4 item, 2 inherent) which is low for a high level wizard will have on average 127 hit points. You either need to do all of that or hope the wizard rolls horribly on the fortitude save versus massive damage.

[bingo_bob]

Really, it just depends on where the characters start in relation to each other. If there's space between them, wizard wins. Right up next to each other, it's fighter, though that's really, really unfair.

[Reel On, Love]

Doing 120+ damage on a charge is almost trivial with the Shock Trooper feat. A core fighter won't be able to manage it, though, unless he's a mounted type with Spirited Charge and the like.

Good point about Divine Oracle. Craft Contingent Spell still works, and you can point out that Contingency has a duration of days, not even hours.

[Jacob Orlove]

No spell effects precasted on himself? Familiars can hold a Contingency, which should be enough to win this fight.

[lapsang]

Now I havent played sinced 2nd edition so I don't know the current rules but saying the mage cant have any spells cast on him beforehand is like saying the fighter cang be wearing any armor or have any weapons drawn. I say while the fighter is busy taking whoever long it takes to put a set of plate on the mage calmy casts fireball and its game over.

EDIT: Ok i just realised the fighter obviously wouldn't need any armor anyways against the Mage so my whole point is kinda moot. But hey, I haven't played in over 15 years so cut me some slack.

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Celerity means you always win initiative (Moment of Precisence argueably can also pull this off), unless you're surprised, which is nowhere near fair.

You cannot take immediate actions, like casting celerity while flat-footed. This includes being flat-footed in a normal round, not just the surprise round. "Celerity always wins initiative" requires the spell to be combined with a previously cast foresight, which prevents you from being flat-footed or surprised.

Heh, read the post - no spells beforehand, so if the fighter wins iniative, you're surprised and you lose (Shock Trooper + Leap Attack is a lot of death)

None of the spells martyboy listed are pre-combat buffs. Unless you count the implicit foresight to pull off the "Celerity always wins initiative" maneuver.

And others have pointed out how "no precast spells" creates conditions that just won't exist in actual game play at high levels. So, yeah, that's an arbitrary restriction anyway.